wrote:

not win but it makes the point DEE is ignorant of the truth OHM laws
has something to do with RADIO Morse Code does not

Perhaps not ignorant... only has very little use for it and the theory.

wrote:
From: "Dee Flint" on Fri, Oct 27 2006 8:16pm
wrote in message
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
Dee Flint wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message

How refreshing to find that not one attribute has been forged.

In addition, I have repeatedly stated that each and every mode has its
advantages and disadvantages.

If you were to compare and contrast all existing modes, it think it is
likely that you would claim that CW is the best mode.

Depends on the conditions. One can construct scenarios where whatever mode
they favor is the "best".

"CW always gets through..." :-)

"CW always gets through" in only one scenario, and that is a fictitious
K3LT scenario.

Any one striving to be a knowledgeable ham should
be converstant with those scenarios.

...especially in the Newington, CT, area. :-)

Is somebody running for an ARRL office?

If you need an image, SST or fax are
far better modes than CW. The "best" mode depends on the purpose of the
communication and the conditions under which that communication must be
sent.

There is NO separate pass-fail TEST for "image, SST [sic]
or fax" nor for data or voice required by the FCC for an
amateur license. ["SSTV"]

The ONLY separate pass-fail TEST is for manual telegraphy.

Wow! I guess CW is more valued than ALL OF THE OTHER MODES COMBINED!

Because of the efforts made to dismiss countless Morse Myths over the
years, you were just now able to state that not all CW signals are good
without 1x2 PCTAs pooh poohing such talk.

You are exaggerating.

Hardly. ALL of the pro-code 1x2s in here, plus some 1x3s,
have stated the hoary old Maxim "CW always gets through."

Except N2EY who never admits to doing anything wrong...:-)

Yet he avoids my question about the aliases he's posted under on RRAP.

None have stated all CW signals are good. What they
have contended is that it is possible to copy a poor CW signal under
conditions where you could not copy other types of signals.

"CW always gets through..." :-)

Nope.

If morse code radiotelegraphy were so "good," why hasn't
NASA picked up on it for the Deep Space Net? For the
quarter-million-mile 'DX' path to our moon? Why have
the maritime folks GIVEN UP on morse code for Safety Of
Life At Sea? [GMDSS uses a form of data, automated]

500KHz.

PSK will allow 100 WPM data to get through when all the
morsepersons have to use their imaginations to fill in
the garbled morse characters.

Oh SHUT UP! That doesn't help the Morse argument one little bit!

Still, the argument over the separate pass-fail "CW"
TEST is there with all the morsepersons wanting it be
kept forever and ever in FCC regulations...WHY?

Because Morse is used in ham radio contests.

Rhetorical question.

Darnit! I should have read ahead!!!

The separate pass-fail "CW" TEST
is there because: (1) The ARRL wants it (they "know
what is best for ham radio"); (2) The already-licensed
had to take a morse test and everyone else had better
take one, too!



EXactly.

Slow Code wrote:
wrote in
oups.com:
Slow Code wrote:

I miss W0EX.

SC

In a way, so do I.

I wished he wouldn't get so upset and accept that he wasn't going to
change my mind.

At least a difference of opinion with Dick didn't make someone a liar.

He was pro-code but he wasn't trollish like me or WA8ULX were.

I believe in CW, but I'm not as Ruthless as I sound. I love to toss out
things and then listen to everyone gasp. ROFL. I know, I know, it's
sadistic...

but it's fun, and maybe some will see and figure out the point of it.

SC

Do you have a Ham Husband to put up your antennas?

wrote in message
ups.com...


[snip]


Dee, place all presently licensed USA amateurs in front of stations
equipped with a manual key AND CWGET. Have them operate operate any CW
Only Contest with whichever is more comfortable for them to use. Total
the scores...

I think you get the point.


Can't tell what your point is. Those experienced with code and using only
their ears and brain will beat CWGet in any contest you care to name. It
doesn't do the job when there are a multitude of operators calling at the
same time. Also CWGet cannot copy the average manually keyed Morse code.
So whatever your point is, you didn't prove anything.

I do NOT and never have believed in the arguments about "keeping out the
riffraff", maintaining tradition, or the "I had to so you should to".

The "dumbing down" argument is just an extension of the "keeping out
the riff-raff" argument.


I've never mentioned the "dumbing down" argument. My point is that there is
a body of basic knowledge that all should know. The difficulty arises in
determining what that basic knowledge should be. Generally, the experienced
people should be the ones to define what constitutes basic knowledge. The
beginners are too inexperienced to do so.

It's basic knowledge, pure and simple. Most of the people I know don't
use
any of the theory either but it is part of the basic knowledge set. I've
used ohm's law only a couple of times in the 14 years I've been licensed.
I've used the dipole equation half a dozen times. I've never used smith
charts. One could get by without the theory but having learned it, I can
choose where I want to focus my attention in amateur ration.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee, you have a Ham Husband to take care of the Ohm's Law and Theory
end of your station, so it's no wonder you have no real use for it..


Please do not insult me by stereotyping like that. I happen to be a degreed
engineer (B.S. in Aerospace Engineering) with 20 years of applied experience
in engineering (aerospace, nuclear, mechanical and automotive fields).
Should I happen to run into a need to use Ohms law and so on, I am perfectly
capable of doing so. In addition, I was the one who taught the class for
our club members who wished to upgrade to Extra, a class which my husband
attended so that he could upgrade from General to Extra.

You have ASSumed and made a donkey of yourself.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

wrote in message
oups.com...
wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

an_old_friend wrote:
wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Dee Flint wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message

Already tried it.

And dismissed it.
esp dimissing the abilty of the human operator of the machine to
fill
in the problems and correct the process

As I said while it is the best that is available, it
is
still far below the capabilities of a human operator.

Correction. ...a few human operators.

indeed the PC alone far exceeds the abilties of many licensed ham
operators but hat doesn't count

I've tried it
under a
wide range of conditions and CWGet still needs a pretty good
signal to
function.

Dee, N8UZE

Morse Myth #119: All CW signals are good signals (Its the
corollary
of
Morse Myth #1: CW always gets through).


Unrelated to my comments.

You would like to think that, but without efforts from folks like
Carl,
Bill, Len, hans, myself and others, you would still be repeating
such
myths, and would never make statements such as "Not all CW signals
are
good."

You can thank us, but that's probably not very likely.

No one has said all CW signals are good.

And they aren't.

If they were always good, CWGet
would always work, which it doesn't. The ones who tout the
software
solution are those who wish that it would always work.

And those who dismiss the software solution think all amateur
operators
are superb morsemen.

In addition, I have repeatedly stated that each and every mode
has
its
advantages and disadvantages.

If you were to compare and contrast all existing modes, it think
it is
likely that you would claim that CW is the best mode.

The extremists on each side don't want to
hear that.

Dee, N8UZE

Because of the efforts made to dismiss countless Morse Myths over
the
years, you were just now able to state that not all CW signals are
good
without 1x2 PCTAs pooh poohing such talk.

well it is a thankless job

Dees coming around in her own way, but the brainwashing that she's
undergone is strong. Perhaps in another decade... if there's still
an
amateur radio. If only she had been able to think spontaneously and
resist, the brainwashing wouldn't have been so well received.

You are mistaken. I've always been one to think spontaneously. Since I
have
personally experienced conditions where it had to be CW or turn off the
radio, I advocate all hams knowing code at a basic level. To insure
that
they do learn it at a basic level, testing at some point in the
licensing is
appropriate. Before entering these news I'd never heard much
discussion
either way on code. My opinions on its usefulness and desireability
were
formed based entirely on actual operating experience. I was surprised
to
learn that there was a big discussion on it in the amateur community.

Dee, place all presently licensed USA amateurs in front of stations
equipped with a manual key AND CWGET. Have them operate operate any CW
Only Contest with whichever is more comfortable for them to use. Total
the scores...

I think you get the point.

What point?

I do NOT and never have believed in the arguments about "keeping out
the
riffraff", maintaining tradition, or the "I had to so you should to".

The "dumbing down" argument is just an extension of the "keeping out
the riff-raff" argument.

No, it isn't.

The requirements for US amateur radio license have been slowly but
steadily reduced for more than 25 years now. Not just the code tests
but also the writtens. That's not the fault of those taking the tests.

It's basic knowledge, pure and simple. Most of the people I know don't
use
any of the theory either but it is part of the basic knowledge set.
I've
used ohm's law only a couple of times in the 14 years I've been
licensed.
I've used the dipole equation half a dozen times. I've never used
smith
charts. One could get by without the theory but having learned it, I
can
choose where I want to focus my attention in amateur ration.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee, you have a Ham Husband to take care of the Ohm's Law and Theory
end of your station, so it's no wonder you have no real use for it..

Brian, do you think that using a false sexist claim is somehow going to
cause you to win the debate?

You lost.


Besides that, Jim, I'm the one who taught the class where my OM upgraded to
Extra!

Dee, N8UZE

Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Slow Code wrote:

Larry, Dee and Me are the only pro 'Keep the code test' people in the
group anymore.

SC

Then the presentation of sound reasoning has been successful.

No most of them have left due to the spam created by Mark Morgan, the
interminable pontification of Len Anderson, the compulsive responses that
some seem to feel that they must post to the spam, the vulgarity of people
like Opus, the slamming that people like Slow Code do to those who licensed
or will license under the current system and so on.

Actually, Mark Morgan is merely the necessary balance to Robesin's
postings. I read Marks posting that are responding to what I've posted
and very little else that he posts.

I do smaple some of Lens posting because they sometimes carry a lot of
satire. What do you thik of Len characterizing you as "Miss Manners?"

Opus? He/She must be posting under another name these days. Ditto
K3LT, K4YZ, and N2EY.

i.e. They left because it was impossible to have a good, spirited debate
without things getting out of hand.

OUT OF HAND???

Robesin is OUT OF MIND! Good thing you don't shoot your mouth off or
you might find bricks through windows, slashed tires, or terrorized ham
husbands...

I only drop in occasionally to see what's happening. Mostly I don't bother
to respond as it has proven to be pointless with all the bad eggs on line.

Dee, N8UZE

I like you're "steady as she goes" format even when I disagree with
you, which I do.

So who do you think "Slow Code" is? Coslo? Miccolis? Roll? Deignan?
Dan, Dan the CB Radio Man?

wrote in message
ups.com...

Dee Flint wrote:

[snip]

You can sit and struggle with trying to train yourself to receive
20
wpm Morse, or you can download and install CwGet and start
copying
the
high speed CW nets immediately. There's no longer any real need
for
a
human to be in the decoding loop, a sure sign of just how
anachronistic human-decoded CW really is. Samuel Morse
originally
designed his code to be copied by machine, so in reality we're
only
catching up with what he intended to do way back in the 1800's.

Already tried it.

And dismissed it.

Based on actually trying it.

Of course!

I did not form an opinion on it until I gave
it a thorough workout. And if the conditions are good enough and they
are
going too fast for me, I'll use it to help out. But there's a lot of
times
it simply doesn't do the job.

Isn't that kind of cheating? W0EX would inject some non-standard
spacing if he knew you were pulling a stunt like that.


So what? I'd simply ask him to QRS 13 so I could copy his deliberately
badly sent code. I'd also chew him out for being a lid.

As I said while it is the best that is available, it
is
still far below the capabilities of a human operator.

Correction. ...a few human operators.

Correction: almost any operator who works code on a semi-regular basis.
My
code skills are very modest. Typically I am comfortable at 13wpm to
15wpm.
Higher than that is a real strain. Still I often copy better than the
computer despite that.

Dee, you know that's not true. There are countless present hams,
former hams, and people who were denied amateur licenses based upon the
Morse Code exam who actually studied Morse Code and who never got to
the point where they could use morse code on a practical level.


You know I've queried people here who said they had problems and "couldn't"
learn code. In every case the problem came down to bad training methods or
bad study habits or insufficient study time or unrealistic expectations
(i.e. in the time or effort required) or a combination of any or all of
them.

[snip]
You would like to think that, but without efforts from folks like Carl,
Bill, Len, hans, myself and others, you would still be repeating such
myths, and would never make statements such as "Not all CW signals are
good."


No I would not be repeating that myth because I never, ever said that all
CW
signals are good and never subscribed to that philosophy.

Didn't say you did. I'm saying that if you had said something as
atrocious as that 10 years ago, W0EX and K3LT would have kicked you
over to the NCI Camp.


Wouldn't matter to me. I have no reason to bow to any one's pressure, yours
or theirs.

If they were the
machines would always work and they don't.

EXpecially if W0EX suspected that you were using a machine.


Irrelevant.

The other half of the coin is
that some of the anti-code types persist in the myth that "Code can
always
be copied by computer". Neither myth is true.

So you're willing to concede that sometimes ham radio won't get
through?


Any ham who has sufficient operating experience on HF has experienced total
radio blackouts due to solar storms. HF gets wiped out except for very
local communications due to ground wave or line of sight. Any ham that
denies that is a fool, inexperienced, or a liar.

I've always maintained that every mode has its advantages and
disadvantages.
A good ham attempts to be conversant with those abilities. However the
extremists on both sides don't want to hear that.

You can thank us, but that's probably not very likely.

Nope because you are ascribing things to me that are not true.

You merely misunderstand.

No you made it pretty plain that you think you are responsible for my
opinions and it just isn't true.


Nobody has
changed my opinions as stated in the above paragraphs. You make the
mistake
of lumping everyone who favors code into one group. That is no more
accurate than lumping the anti-code people all in one group.

So Jim is wrong?


Jim has never lumped all the anti-code people into one group. There are
several of them whom he respects.

No one has said all CW signals are good.

And they aren't.

[snip]

And sometimes CW doesn't get through even with skilled operators. And
sometimes you use CWGet to help you along when you find that your
skills are lacking.


So what? I've never claimed to be highly skilled. I've always said that my
skills are quite modest. However, when conditions are poor, even I can beat
CWGet. I'll sometimes use it when I'm too tired to focus and the signal is
fast and strong. Otherwise it just doesn't do it. The rest of the time, I
depend on my own skills.

If CW doesn't get through with skilled operators, then it's due to bad
conditions. In general, CW is a robust mode that will typically be the last
mode to fail as conditions worsen.

In addition, I have repeatedly stated that each and every mode has its
advantages and disadvantages.

If you were to compare and contrast all existing modes, it think it is
likely that you would claim that CW is the best mode.

Depends on the conditions. One can construct scenarios where whatever
mode
they favor is the "best". Any one striving to be a knowledgeable ham
should
be converstant with those scenarios.

Larry Roll had one scenarion, and in that scenario, CW was the only
mode that would get through, and it would always get through.


I'm sure he was experienced enough to know better but simply like to pull
people's chains and/or was tired of being poked by the anit-code people.

If you need an image, SST or fax are
far better modes than CW.

I used to hand plot RADAR image reports that I received over TTY, but
those were the olden days. We've moved far beyond that now.

Satellite remote sensing is digital. A seven layer image could be sent
by CW, but it would take a long time.


Did I not say that CW is not good for images?

The "best" mode depends on the purpose of the
communication and the conditions under which that communication must be
sent.

Glad to hear you say that. Why were you so silent on that subject when
K3LT and W0EX were saying otherwise?


Mostly I don't bother with people making outrageous statements. In
addition, if I remember correctly, they were either no longer posting or
dropping off in their posting when I started reading the newsgroups.
Basically I've only heard about what they posted rather than reading the
posts myself.

The extremists on each side don't want to
hear that.

Dee, N8UZE

Because of the efforts made to dismiss countless Morse Myths over the
years, you were just now able to state that not all CW signals are good
without 1x2 PCTAs pooh poohing such talk.

You are exaggerating. None have stated all CW signals are good. What
they
have contended is that it is possible to copy a poor CW signal under
conditions where you could not copy other types of signals.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

What they wouldn't claim is possible is that there are conditions where
even CW wouldn't get through.


Defensive knee-jerk reaction and exaggeration in response to the equally
idiotic posters who claim that there is no need or use for CW in modern
radio.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
On 28 Oct 2006 14:01:31 -0700, wrote:


wrote:
On 27 Oct 2006 16:43:42 -0700, wrote:


an_old_friend wrote:
wrote:

Dees coming around in her own way, but the brainwashing that she's
undergone is strong. Perhaps in another decade... if there's still
an
amateur radio. If only she had been able to think spontaneously and
resist, the brainwashing wouldn't have been so well received.

thinking ability is not prised by our educational system by and large

The Catholics have done a commendable job in the educational department.

Realy

Yep, and for far less money than the public schools operate on.

i honestly have no real dat on the subject NOT being catholic
and being from a religious background that frowns on Rome we have
tended to avoid thier school

That isn't to say that Catholics don't have a whole host of other
problems.

I do hope some schools are doing a better
job

In public schools? Rare!

I mean Dee equates being able to do Morse Code (which she flasely
claims based on the lies she was taught is somehow related to basis of
Radio Maxwells equations to data that wtries to keep someone from
hurting themselves, shows poor thinking process

Dee's doing the best she can with her self-imposed handicaps.


Well if you understood that garbled mess of a sentence, then my hat is off
to you. Perhaps you should get a job as his interpreter.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Slow Code wrote:

Larry, Dee and Me are the only pro 'Keep the code test' people in the
group anymore.

SC

Then the presentation of sound reasoning has been successful.

No most of them have left due to the spam created by Mark Morgan,

I see Mark Morgan as the necessary balance in the vicious postings by
Robesin. We actually have very little in common. We both claim to be
amateur radio operator and military veterans. I got chopped to the US
Army twice, so I know a little bit about the Army. I also got chopped
to the US Navy once, and there and at service schools, and in Somalia,
was fairly close to the USMC.

As far as amateur radio goes, the only one of these bozos I've ever
QSO'd was Heil when I was DX on Guam.

the
interminable pontification of Len Anderson,

Yeh, well, we have Jim who served in other ways. I'm sure he has
something to be proud of, too, but so far he hasn't mentioned it in
other ways.

the compulsive responses that
some seem to feel that they must post to the spam, the vulgarity of people
like Opus,

I guess you conveniently forgot Dan and Bruce's postings to Kim....

Talk about not just sexist, but bonifide sexual harassment (and Jim
never once chimed in to say boo)....

the slamming that people like Slow Code do to those who licensed
or will license under the current system and so on.

He's only saying what the PCTA Extras would like to say without their
callsigns attached to it.

i.e. They left because it was impossible to have a good, spirited debate
without things getting out of hand.

I like spirited, and I like the dignity that you lend when things get
spirited...

I only drop in occasionally to see what's happening. Mostly I don't bother
to respond as it has proven to be pointless with all the bad eggs on line.

Dee, N8UZE

Is an egg that's come to room temp and incubating a little bit of
salmonella really all that bad?

wrote:
On 28 Oct 2006 15:11:43 -0700, wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Slow Code wrote:
Larry, Dee and Me are the only pro 'Keep the code test' people in the
group anymore.

SC

Then the presentation of sound reasoning has been successful.

No most of them have left due to the spam created by Mark Morgan, the
interminable pontification of Len Anderson, the compulsive responses that
some seem to feel that they must post to the spam, the vulgarity of people
like Opus, the slamming that people like Slow Code do to those who licensed
or will license under the current system and so on.

Actually, Mark Morgan is merely the necessary balance to Robesin's
postings. I read Marks posting that are responding to what I've posted
and very little else that he posts.

indded as you should pity Rbeson demand so much attention

He's an egomaniac log10, which I think is the legal definition of
megalomaniac.

I do smaple some of Lens posting because they sometimes carry a lot of
satire. What do you thik of Len characterizing you as "Miss Manners?"

Opus? He/She must be posting under another name these days. Ditto
K3LT, K4YZ, and N2EY.

i.e. They left because it was impossible to have a good, spirited debate
without things getting out of hand.

OUT OF HAND???

Robesin is OUT OF MIND! Good thing you don't shoot your mouth off or
you might find bricks through windows, slashed tires, or terrorized ham
husbands...

or letter your neighboors insiting you are child molestor

Are you serious???

I only drop in occasionally to see what's happening. Mostly I don't bother
to respond as it has proven to be pointless with all the bad eggs on line.

Dee, N8UZE

I like you're "steady as she goes" format even when I disagree with
you, which I do.

So who do you think "Slow Code" is? Coslo? Miccolis? Roll? Deignan?
Dan, Dan the CB Radio Man?

Jim.