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Answer me this, is that an inviting atmosphere? How many people enter hobbies to be ridiculed? There's a certain amount of that whatever hobby one gets into to start. Say in model railroading "You dummy, you shouldn't use a passenger engine to haul a freight train" (different gearing and torque in the real things). Or say an AOLer trying to learn how to be a hacker "Lamer" or "Luser". In ham radio "Lid". What the thing is in all these things is the people. People who understand what it's like for a beginner to get started and trying to figure things out (and sometimes getting it wrong). Vs someone who think that a non-expert will never learn, that the beginner is permanently "stupid". Hams *must* provide a welcoming atmosphere, not inject their own personal preferences into the mix, and take these new people and show them they are valued on the air. Then word of mouth will spread among the technologically inclined, and we won't have to be discussing how to grow Ham radio. The Morse code test could disappear tomorrow, and as long as Hams encouraged a welcoming atmosphere that encouraged quality, we would get quality. The test could be retained, and as long as newcomers could have a reasonable expectation that they would have a good experience, then the hobby would grow. We must heal ourselves! - Nickle Extra, Mike KB3EIA - |
Quitefine wrote:
We think N8UZE is correct: People cannot be interested in something they do not know about. Many people may think that ham radio is just a glorified version of CB. No, I'm not talking about the occasional "lid" or newbie that gets on the air and makes errors. Or the hams on 2m saying "10-4" on the repeater. I mean the general chaos and ratchet jawing and echo boxes you find on CB. That some CBers seem more interested in "broadcasting" whatnot than actually talking to someone. |
WA8ULX wrote:
That may be a good thing.... I say let the FREE Loading Knuckle Draggin CBplussers fight the Battle, I sure as HELL Im not going to fight for them. That's probably because, as you mentioned some time ago, you never use HF.... |
N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes: N2EY wrote: In article , Mike Coslo writes: N2EY wrote: These are the number of unexpired FCC ARS licenses held by individuals on the dates listed: snip Total Tech/TechPlus - 320,925 (decrease of 13,329) Total all classes - 675,693 (increase of 901) Good to see that the total numbers increased *despite* the "Great Falloff" We have only 901 more hams today than we had when the whole restructuring business came into being more than 4 years ago. (Some "professionals" can't seem to even get a Technician license out of the box, despite the reduction in written testing as well as code). Total growth of 901 in that much time isn't healthy. Reducing the code test to just 5 wpm did not result in sustained growth, and neither did reducing the written tests. I just gotta say it.....well DUH! Some people have difficulty accepting the obvious. Things are not made popular by making them easy. Things are not made popular by giving them away. Some things are. Ham radio licenses aren't one of those things. A reasonably intelligent person can learn the tests, the old "hard tests" tests or new "easy tests". All license classes have been earned by kids not yet in middle school. Of course they were bright kids in supportive ham families but they still had to pass the tests on their own. Claims of "fraud" by a nonamateur nonwithstanding. It doesn't matter. If a person has to spend a few more weeks learning something, so be it. It won't chase them away. It doesn't matter if there is a Morse code test or not. Not one little bit. Too many people seem to have thought that elimination of the Morse code test would bring an influx of new eager hams. It will not. Not a sustained one, anyway. If you think that elimination of the Morse test will help, You are wrong. If you think that retention of the Morse test will help, you are wrong. Karl, for all his bluster, has no more clue about what will attract new people to the field than most PCTA's. He and the other CW haters simply hate CW, and rationalize their hatred into "Ham radio will die unless we get rid of the test. "Karl"? WHo is he? Mea culpa there! I meant Carl. I had just read one of Bruce's posts before I wrote the post. Some time back I posted the experiences of a middle-school teacher and Scout leader here in EPA. He described first-hand how young people react to Morse Code and ham radio. Unlike what we've been told by some, he says young people are not driven away by Morse code or the tests. His experiences are not unusual. I don't doubt it, kids are incredible learning machines. It seems to me that the people who have the most trouble with code tests are much older.... Oh yeah! Anything that needs rationalized is probably wrong to begin with. And they are wrong to begin with. You probably agree so far. You won't soon. The difficulty or lack of "difficult tests" or the Morse code test likewise has *no* effect whatsoever on the quality of the Ham community. It's not about difficulty. It's about knowledge. Ahh, what *does* grow Ham radio? Hams grow Ham radio. And an awful lot aren't doing it. Bitching, whining, and moaning about the good old days and how much better hams were then is only going to chase new people away. If I were the sensitive sort, I would have quit Ham radio ten times over. I've had to listen to Olde Tymers complaining about how only jerks and CB'ers are joining the ranks, and how anyone can become an Extra nowadays. I've listened to them claiming that all new Hams are stupid, and other insults thrown at the new guys. At one time, I would gently remind them that "I resemble that remark", but that gets old after the umpteenth time. I agree! But this is not a new phenomenon. I agree. I've often noted how incredibly angry middle aged and older men can get about almost anything. Answer me this, is that an inviting atmosphere? How many people enter hobbies to be ridiculed? BINGO Hams *must* provide a welcoming atmosphere, not inject their own personal preferences into the mix, and take these new people and show them they are valued on the air. Then word of mouth will spread among the technologically inclined, and we won't have to be discussing how to grow Ham radio. But that door swings both ways. How many insults from newbies must an OT endure before giving the same back? Five?...... ;^) You know I advocate good manners always. In most cases, the newcomer can be reigned in. Of course there are always exceptions: I recall a discussion some time back where a newcomer wanted to know of a simple, all-band, compact high performance HF antenna. Knowedgeable folk tried to explain that you can't have all of those things at once. Newcomer said that the OTs were simply not imaginative enough. OTs said it's basic physics. Newsomer said OTs were lazy and stupid, and if they *really* knew anyhting about radio they'd have solved the problem long ago. Just kept going downhill from there. How much of that should an OT take? That newcomer was a horses ass for sure. But you run into those once in a while. Odd that a person that knew that if experienced users knew anything, they would know how ot bend the laws of physics! If he knew, he would already know how to make that WonderAntenna!. But I don't think that diminishes my point. Smart Young Pup syndrome exists everywhere, and Ham radio is no exception. Old timers should know better, and we should "suffer the newbies" for Ham radio's sake. Besides, it is a little bit of fun to watch them fall on their faces after the confrontation. Then they tend to fall in line - and no "I told you so's" please! The Morse code test could disappear tomorrow, and as long as Hams encouraged a welcoming atmosphere that encouraged quality, we would get quality. The test could be retained, and as long as newcomers could have a reasonable expectation that they would have a good experience, then the hobby would grow. We must heal ourselves! Well said, but I think it's even more basic. Dee said it best: People aren't attracted to what they don't know about. Or something similar. Most people today don't even know amateur radio exists. Or they confuse it with cb. And if we let them know about it, they become interested, and the first thing they hear is how stupid new hams are and how BPL is going to destroy Ham radio so you might as well hang it up, and how they are no better than a bunch of CB'ers? "Knowing" of *that* is no positive thing. The idea of fishing is not just to let them see the bait. They must be hooked and landed or else all is for naught. - Mike KB3EIA - |
In article , Mike Coslo
writes: N2EY wrote: In article , Mike Coslo writes: N2EY wrote: In article , Mike Coslo writes: N2EY wrote: These are the number of unexpired FCC ARS licenses held by individuals on the dates listed: Some people have difficulty accepting the obvious. Things are not made popular by making them easy. Things are not made popular by giving them away. Some things are. Ham radio licenses aren't one of those things. A reasonably intelligent person can learn the tests, the old "hard tests" tests or new "easy tests". All license classes have been earned by kids not yet in middle school. Of course they were bright kids in supportive ham families but they still had to pass the tests on their own. Claims of "fraud" by a nonamateur nonwithstanding. It doesn't matter. If a person has to spend a few more weeks learning something, so be it. It won't chase them away. It doesn't matter if there is a Morse code test or not. Not one little bit. Too many people seem to have thought that elimination of the Morse code test would bring an influx of new eager hams. It will not. Not a sustained one, anyway. If you think that elimination of the Morse test will help, You are wrong. If you think that retention of the Morse test will help, you are wrong. Karl, for all his bluster, has no more clue about what will attract new people to the field than most PCTA's. He and the other CW haters simply hate CW, and rationalize their hatred into "Ham radio will die unless we get rid of the test. "Karl"? WHo is he? Mea culpa there! I meant Carl. I had just read one of Bruce's posts before I wrote the post. Carl could be quite abrasive, too. He has cleaned up his act quite a bit. Wish I could say the same for Bruce... Some time back I posted the experiences of a middle-school teacher and Scout leader here in EPA. He described first-hand how young people react to Morse Code and ham radio. Unlike what we've been told by some, he says young people are not driven away by Morse code or the tests. His experiences are not unusual. I don't doubt it, kids are incredible learning machines. Adults too. It seems to me that the people who have the most trouble with code tests are much older.... Oh yeah! Anything that needs rationalized is probably wrong to begin with. And they are wrong to begin with. You probably agree so far. You won't soon. The difficulty or lack of "difficult tests" or the Morse code test likewise has *no* effect whatsoever on the quality of the Ham community. It's not about difficulty. It's about knowledge. Ahh, what *does* grow Ham radio? Hams grow Ham radio. And an awful lot aren't doing it. Bitching, whining, and moaning about the good old days and how much better hams were then is only going to chase new people away. If I were the sensitive sort, I would have quit Ham radio ten times over. I've had to listen to Olde Tymers complaining about how only jerks and CB'ers are joining the ranks, and how anyone can become an Extra nowadays. I've listened to them claiming that all new Hams are stupid, and other insults thrown at the new guys. At one time, I would gently remind them that "I resemble that remark", but that gets old after the umpteenth time. I agree! But this is not a new phenomenon. I agree. I've often noted how incredibly angry middle aged and older men can get about almost anything. Not just men. Answer me this, is that an inviting atmosphere? How many people enter hobbies to be ridiculed? BINGO Hams *must* provide a welcoming atmosphere, not inject their own personal preferences into the mix, and take these new people and show them they are valued on the air. Then word of mouth will spread among the technologically inclined, and we won't have to be discussing how to grow Ham radio. But that door swings both ways. How many insults from newbies must an OT endure before giving the same back? Five?...... ;^) You know I advocate good manners always. In most cases, the newcomer can be reigned in. Of course there are always exceptions: Yep. Newcomers like "lenover21".... I recall a discussion some time back where a newcomer wanted to know of a simple, all-band, compact high performance HF antenna. Knowedgeable folk tried to explain that you can't have all of those things at once. Newcomer said that the OTs were simply not imaginative enough. OTs said it's basic physics. Newsomer said OTs were lazy and stupid, and if they *really* knew anyhting about radio they'd have solved the problem long ago. Just kept going downhill from there. How much of that should an OT take? That newcomer was a horses ass for sure. But you run into those once in a while. Odd that a person that knew that if experienced users knew anything, they would know how ot bend the laws of physics! If he knew, he would already know how to make that WonderAntenna!. But I don't think that diminishes my point. Smart Young Pup syndrome exists everywhere, and Ham radio is no exception. Old timers should know better, and we should "suffer the newbies" for Ham radio's sake. Of course. Sometimes the best method is to simply ignore the behavior. Point is, however, that those who get such responses for their attempts to help are much less likely to help out next time. I went through a somewhat-similar exercise with antenna information here on rrap. Took me a few go-rounds to realize that no matter what I did, the newcomer would be overly critical, and reject all my options and suggestions. I think his real motive was to waste my time and try to make me look bad. So I just quit playing that game. Besides, it is a little bit of fun to watch them fall on their faces after the confrontation. Then they tend to fall in line - and no "I told you so's" please! Or they walk away. The Morse code test could disappear tomorrow, and as long as Hams encouraged a welcoming atmosphere that encouraged quality, we would get quality. The test could be retained, and as long as newcomers could have a reasonable expectation that they would have a good experience, then the hobby would grow. We must heal ourselves! Well said, but I think it's even more basic. Dee said it best: People aren't attracted to what they don't know about. Or something similar. Most people today don't even know amateur radio exists. Or they confuse it with cb. And if we let them know about it, they become interested, and the first thing they hear is how stupid new hams are and how BPL is going to destroy Ham radio so you might as well hang it up, and how they are no better than a bunch of CB'ers? "Knowing" of *that* is no positive thing. Apply that same thought to those who go around saying the Morse Code test is so unfair, it's so hard to learn, the mode is antiquated, buggy-whip comparisons, etc. The idea of fishing is not just to let them see the bait. They must be hooked and landed or else all is for naught. To a certain extent. However, if someone is cajoled and spoon-fed too much, they learn to be helpless in certain areas. Then they balme others when they can't deal with a problem - or they just give up. So a balance is needed. And a positive attitude. And the truth is that widespread deployment of BPL would pretty much make HF useless for most of us hams. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
He has cleaned up his act quite a bit. Wish
I could say the same for Bruce... Of course Karl has, all he wanted was a FREE RIDE to HF. And as far as Bruce, forget it, Im not about to change on this subject untill the CBRRLL, and the FCC correct there mistake. |
In article ,
(William) writes: (Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ... Subject: ARS License Numbers From: (William) Date: 8/21/2004 6:23 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: (Quitefine) wrote in message ... In article , (William) writes: And for what it's worth, have you noticed that we used to have an ANON poster on here going by the "handle" of Quitefine? Why do you write of us in the past tense? I wrote of you in the past tense, not us. Welcome back, Jim. Steve has an unnatural attraction for every ANON poster on here EXCEPT for Quitefine. It seems that 'Steve' is not the only one :-) :-) You and Lenover21 have both tried to be anonymous here. I merely wished to reduce spam at my original e-mail account, and it has worked. Suuuuuuuuuuure you did, Brain.. Sure. Are you still "Dialing...?" You can and will read nefarious intent into any of my actions. So far your actions say "liar", "poor self esteem" and "no self respect" Regardless, my posting style has not changed and anyone who asks will be told who I am. Yes, your "posting style" HAS changed. You became far more vile, antagonizing and mistruthful. This was all after your public announcement of admiration for another vile, antagonizing and mistruthful RRAP poster. As for telling anyone who you are, if it really meant anything to you, it would automatic for you to sign your posts. You don't. So much for self respect. Steve, K4YZ Steve, you're merely a short, chubby, frustrated, middle-aged, sick, uniform seeking has-been who has been off his medications for far too long to return to a normal life. You've suffered agonizing personal loss, and with it much of your humanity. Apparently as a result of your pain, you lie incessantly, lack self-respect, make insane statements and accusations, and make an ass of yourself in the name of Amateur Radio, the Civil Air Patrol, and the Military Affiliated Radio System. You embarass them and you embarass amateur radio. You embarass yourself but don't seem to notice. I have responded to your abuses with a civil tongue for far too long. You now reap what you sew. When you can respond civilly, using my correct name, and without calling me a liar, a penis, a homosexual, or a child molester, you will receive civil replies in kind. A public apology is warranted as well, but I can forego the apology if I see you making real progress. You aren't the avenging angel of amateur radio, and you have no right to expect that your behavior is acceptable in any forum. Until you're well, you're not worth responding to. I guess you're happy enough not being responsible for your actions. Best of Luck on your road to recovery. That about sums it up. :-) |
In article ,
(William) writes: (Quitefine) wrote in message ... In article , (William) writes: And for what it's worth, have you noticed that we used to have an ANON poster on here going by the "handle" of Quitefine? Why do you write of us in the past tense? I wrote of you in the past tense, not us. Welcome back, Jim. Steve has an unnatural attraction for every ANON poster on here EXCEPT for Quitefine. It seems that 'Steve' is not the only one :-) :-) You and Lenover21 have both tried to be anonymous here. I merely wished to reduce spam at my original e-mail account, and it has worked. You can and will read nefarious intent into any of my actions. Regardless, my posting style has not changed and anyone who asks will be told who I am. Can you explain this? No. Perhaps 'Steve' respects our anonymity. Perhaps he has changed. Steve only changes when he goes on his meds, and when he goes off his meds. I hope he changes his uniform. The "class A" act was getting old... Jimmie still hasn't "explained" HIS use of anonymity. shrug Ham Radio of 2004! All have anonymous calls! |
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