On 8 Jul 2003 14:16:00 -0700, N2EY wrote:

The current writtens are a mixture of rules and regs, theory,
operating practices, and RF safety. They have been in constant
revision and development for over 20 years. I don't see them changing
all that much.

What I would LOVE to see is a set of 50-question elements on EACH
of the topics which you listed plus operating practices. Make it an
all-at-one-sitting procedure. Just like the olden days......

Let's make it more fun, and do it like the Nursing Board exam that
my daughter took several years ago:

The questions come out of computer at a speed which is dependent on
how fast the applicant is answering them. Scramble the qyestions
and the multi-choice answers so that if one memorizes the "little
red book" of all the questions and answers it won't help unless
s/he understands and knows the material.

The machine keeps feeding questions until it is a guaranteed "pass"
or a guaranteed "fail" and then it terminates the exam session. The
applicant does not know whether s/he passed or not until the
results are sent by mail. Just like the olden days.....

I'm sure that there are enough ham-programmers that can write such
a program.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

I don't know, Phil. My license expires in .. um ... September? I'd get my
wallet and check, but I know I'm close. The question is, can I renew and
get the call change all at once (you can get the call sign you want, but it
doesn't extend the expiration date of the license), or do I renew a day
after it expires to ensure a 10 year period before I shell out some serious
micro-buck$

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA

"Phil Kane" wrote in message
.net...
On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 03:09:53 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:

ps - yes, I'd like to get my old call back, but now all you do is pay
your
money and get any call from any district that is available. So why do it
anyways?

For the same reason that I ransomed my original call back on the
first day of Gate 1 - I didn't want anyone else to use it. It was
my primary station call from 1952 until 1957 and my secondary
station call from 1957 until 1983 when secondary station calls were
abolished. I even gave up a 1X2 to get it back.

My one slice of selfishness.

Go for it, Jim.....

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
(ex-W6VQM, ex-N6SP)




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"Leland C. Scott" wrote ...

Are you really that "dense" Arnie where you can't figure it out on your
own?

73's de,

Leland C. Scott
KC8LDO

ARRL member
NCI member
__________________________________________________ ________________

Nope, but anybody who refers to a straight key as a "code key" and sends
73's is. I suspect you will make a fine operator -- at some point in the
future. Once you get the lingo down pat.

Best 73,

Arnie -
KT4ST

Member "Know Code International"

"I think this QRP unit is broken -- all it does is beep"

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 02:10:24 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:

I don't know, Phil. My license expires in .. um ... September? I'd get my
wallet and check, but I know I'm close. The question is, can I renew and
get the call change all at once (you can get the call sign you want, but it
doesn't extend the expiration date of the license), or do I renew a day
after it expires to ensure a 10 year period before I shell out some serious
micro-buck$

I would renew it now if it is within the 90-day window. That can be
done on-line.

Once that is done (check the ULS a day or so after the on-line
renewal) THEN apply for the change of call sign. You can do that on
line as well.

It's just like when we applied for the club station license - it had
to be issued as a "sequential series" 2X3 license before we could
apply for the change of call sign (which was also a 2X3).

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

In article ,
(Vshah101) writes:

From: ospam (Larry Roll K3LT)

So, we'll change the debate over
to whether or not the ARS is a "technical" service

The ARS will not be a "technical" service with the current Ham radio culture.
Most homebrewing is for show or to boost the image of the ARS. They are too
snobby to include someone that is interested in Homebrewing. Or its some EE
that usually doesn't attend meetings.

Vipul:

I don't disagree.

The clubs and Hamfests focus on antennas, contesting, and CW. With the
exception of antennas, ARS is primarily an appliance operator hobby. One
example is people coming from scanner or CB to ARS. Another example is the
comparison that "without CW, its just CB". Note that CW is an operator skill.

Yup -- got it right that time. CW *is* an operator skill. Do you have
something
against operator skill -- or are you one of those New Age hams that think
yakking into a microphone is all the demonstration of operator skill that
should
ever be required of you?

ARS is not a technical service because Hams have "voted" by their actions to
not do these things. Furthermore, they discourage other amateurs from doing
other than what they like to do.

Funny -- nobody has ever been able to "discourage" me from doing anything
I wanted to do. I just went ahead and did it. I could care less what other
people think, do, or say as far as my personal participation in amateur
radio is concerned. Moreover, I don't waste valuable time whining about it --
as the no-coders apparently are inclined to do.

They also strongly encourage others to learn
CW. At several antenna setups, club meetings, ham gatherings, I have
participated in, often Hams try to persuade me to learn CW.

And this is a bad thing? How so? If you were around me at an antenna
party, I'd be nagging you to get involved in PSK-31 and other digital modes
in addition to the CW! It's all good!

and whether the testing
should be changed into something more dumbed-down than it already is.

After that, the next bone of contention will be whether or not a prospective
ham should be required to know how to spell his name correctly on the
application!

To you, taking away one requirement (the CW test) is dumbing down because its
one less requirement. If more people focus on the written material, ARS could
be more than an operator's hobby and more of a technical hobby. That's not
dumbing down of the hobby.

Well, you no-coders have always claimed that exact thing, but what has
happened is that ALL licensing requirements have been significantly
"dumbed-down." However, in spite of it now being easier than ever in the
history of the ARS to obtain a license with full privileges, our numbers are
not showing significant growth. What is wrong with this picture?

Oooooohhh. I guess it is the "attitudes" of all the CW-loving fossils
like me that is turning off the newcomers. Right. (There you go, Kim --
I saved you a few keystrokes!)

It is only required 5 wpm CW speed, yet many Hams take pride in increasing
their code speed.

Well, we can't have any of that now, can we?

The easy written test is not the problem. Its lack of
interest in the technical material, and achieving skills in these areas -
that's the problem.

Once again, I don't disagree. Soooo -- what are YOU going to do about it?

73 de Larry, K3LT

In article , Radio Amateur KC2HMZ
writes:

is required, there will be people whining and
complaining about having to prepare for it and take it in order to obtain
a license in whatever's left of the ARS.

I feel compelled to point out that such negativity is not likely to
have a positive effect on "whatever's left of the ARS" and to remind
once again that anyone who is not a part of the solution is a part of
the problem.

John:

This is not "negativity," just a plainly truthful assessment of the present
situation regarding licensing standards in the ARS.

So, we'll change the debate over
to whether or not the ARS is a "technical" service and whether the testing
should be changed into something more dumbed-down than it already is.

Every time I hear someone lamenting the supposed dumbing down of the
ARS, I can't help but think of the number of longtime hams I've seen
over the past few years who brought a brand new 2m or dual-band mobile
or HT, or an Icom 706MKIIG or Yaesu FT-100 into a club meeting to seek
help in programming it.

I know what you're talking about -- and I'll concede up front that a lot of
these technically-inept OT's are 20 WPM Extras to boot! However, I have
always strove to keep up with the times as far as basic technical knowledge
is concerned -- and not just the bare minimum required to keep beeping
or yakking. I have always been involved in digital modes, for instance, and
now use them more than CW! I have been my club's "Digital Mode Captain"
for the past four Field Days, and will try to pass that job over to some
newcomer next year, if only I could find one willing to open some books and
turn some pages to learn everything I have -- instead of being "Elmered"
with "hands on" training which only gives them the basic operational
procedure and none of the background.

I'm not talking about relative newcomers
either, I'm talking about guys who were hams before I was even born.

Yup, I know. They're a real problem, all right. Usually the leaders of
the "Don't PL our repeater" pack of whiners.

Furthermore, sometimes it's a no-code Tech who picks up the
old-timer's HT and shows him how to program it.

Sometimes, but certainly not often enough. The No-Code Techs are at the
top of the list of the technically inept, in spite of their protests to the
contrary.

Never mind that the
HT's owner could have learned this for himself by reading the manual,
because many manufactuers' manuals leave a lot to be desired, and
we're talking about guys who once built microphones out of tuna fish
cans and can do 40WPM or better in their sleep.

Quite frankly, the tuna fish-can mics didn't sound that great, and the
40 WPM in their sleep would have sounded a lot better if they had used
25 WPM while wide awake.

How are we supposed to
be dumbed down if guys who have been extras since Moby Dick was a
minnow need help from another ham to get a new piece of equipment
operating? And how are we supposed to be dumbed down when it turns out
to be a guy with a license the ink isn't even dry on yet that is able
to provide that assistance, and is happy to do so? I'm not buying the
dumbed-down theory one bit.

This has always been the case, John -- I was one of the "technical
nerds" when I was a newcomer ham as well -- much to the dismay of
the OT's in my first club. And I don't claim to be a technical genius
or anything like it -- I have strictly "amateur" technical skills. I am,
however, technically self-sufficient as far as my own station set-up and
operation is concerned, and I have enough know-how to maintain our
club's repeaters, do all our computer logging for Field Day and other
contests, etc. etc.

I don't disagree with you whatsoever about the technical abilities of
hams past or present. However, I don't assign that technical inability
to knowledge of the Morse code, either. The two are not related, no
matter how hard the no-coders struggle to make that very same
connection in their arguments.

After that, the next bone of contention will be whether or not a prospective
ham should be required to know how to spell his name correctly on the
application!

If he can't, he gets a license that doesn't have his name on it and is
therefore invalid, doesn't he?

Dang it, John, you got it first time! You're a real fart smeller! Er, I mean,

smart feller!

BTW, Larry, you were supposed to look me up when you came up this way,
I still owe you a roast beef from a bet we made several years ago and
you haven't even bothered to collect your winnings.

My apologies. I don't even remember the bet. I guess my brain is too
full of Morse code knowledge to retain such things, eh? Please refresh
my memory!

73 de Larry, K3LT

Phil Kane wrote:


The questions come out of computer at a speed which is dependent on
how fast the applicant is answering them. Scramble the questions
and the multi-choice answers so that if one memorizes the "little
red book" of all the questions and answers it won't help unless
s/he understands and knows the material.

The machine keeps feeding questions until it is a guaranteed "pass"
or a guaranteed "fail" and then it terminates the exam session. The
applicant does not know whether s/he passed or not until the
results are sent by mail. Just like the olden days.....



Back in 1994 I lived in Oregon for a year. The written driver's test at
the DMV was
done with a computer with touch screen. I knew how many questions I got
wrong, but
lost track of how many more I had to complete during the test. Then it
told me that
I passed and my score, around 92%.

Paper tests generated just before the VE session via computer would be
cheaper and
easier than dedicated hardware like that DMV had anyway.

Hey Mike,

With the aging ham population as a whole, should that not be some type of
bran flakes or worse yet, Metramucil (i.e. fiber) ??


--
Ryan, KC8PMX
FF1-FF2-MFR-(pending NREMT-B!)
--. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-.
... --. .... - . .-. ...

I simply *refuse* to buy a box of Cheerios just to get a Ham license.
Although my interest in the ARS is boundless, It IS unfair to make a
person buy a box of Cheerio's! it is keeping thousands of Technically
competent Cheerio's haters off the air!

I never intend to eat Cheerio's, and I know I never will. So why should
I have to buy a box of Cheerio's just so I can get a Ham license?

Unfair, Unfair, Unfair!!!! It's just another ham cult hazing ritual.....


- Mike KB3EIA -

Dick Carroll wrote:
Based on the required and demonstrated knowledge and
ability level demanded of the testing
today, it's simply not possible to say with any certainty that the new licensee
knows anything about the subject
matter, nor is competent to handle radiotelegraphy at effective communications
speeds.

This is not a new problem, it has been around for many years.

Mike Coslo wrote:


JJ wrote:



Larry Roll K3LT wrote:



Yup -- got it right that time. CW *is* an operator skill.



Yes it is.

Do you have
something
against operator skill -- or are you one of those New Age hams that
think
yakking into a microphone is all the demonstration of operator skill
that
should
ever be required of you?



Do you have something against someone who has no desire to operate CW?
There are many different modes of operation in ham radio, do you
operate them all?


No more than I have against someone who chooses to do satellite
work, while I have to test for it.

What if you decide at some later time to do satellite work?


Rf Safety is required to be calculated for by people when they run
over a certain power. Why should someone who never intends to work over
50 watts have to test for RF safety?

What if they decide at some later point to increase their power?


If someone never intends to homebrew, why should they test on any
equations.


What is they suddenly get the urge to build a homebrew transmitter
or amplifier?


Sounds like we should maybe make up our own tests.

Maybe you had rather be call in to be tested on a new mode each
time you decide to operate a new mode.