From: ospam (Larry Roll K3LT)

After all
those changes, where are the "fresh new ideas?" What are we doing now

Simple, the old-timers are not interested in new ideas. One example would be
holding on to Morse code and pressuring new Hams to learn Morse code and
excluding those that don't want to learn Morse code. Another example is most
old timers want to just make random contacts and are not interested in the
technical aspects of the hobby.

I have proposed new ideas, projects, etc. I didn't say I just want others to do
those projects for me. I would help with those projects - if there were
interest. I have asked to volunteer for those types of activities on several
occasions. The old-timers in the club are NOT interested in those types of
activities. However, they will put extra effort into teaching code classes to
get people to operate Morse code.

Don't blame the newcomers - its the old-timers that want to keep things as they
are.

Vshah101 wrote:

From: ospam (Larry Roll K3LT)

After all
those changes, where are the "fresh new ideas?" What are we doing now

Simple, the old-timers are not interested in new ideas.

Your statement is not substantiated by fact.

One example would be holding on to Morse code and pressuring new Hams to learn Morse code and excluding those that don't want to learn Morse code.

The first part of your statement is not "an example" at all. Morse code
has demonstrated its usefulness and is still widely used in amateur
radio. Someone might "hold on" to morse code and be very active with
newer modes or might be involved in electronic circuit design.

The second part of your statement, the one about pressuring new Hams to
learn morse code is unsubstantiated by fact. Some new hams don't want
to learn morse code and don't. Some new hams find the world of HF radio
exciting and want to participate. They learn morse code. Some new hams
find HF interesting and have decided to "wait it out" in hopes that
there'll be no morse testing in the future.

The third part of your statement, dealing with the exclusion of those
who don't want to learn morse code, is unsubstantiated by fact. What
evidence can you present to support your claim? From what would these
folks be excluded? You've participated in meetings. You've been part
of operating events. How have you been excluded?

Another example is most
old timers want to just make random contacts and are not interested in the technical aspects of the hobby.

How do you know what "most old timers" do and what they are not
interested in? I know old timers who are very technically inclined and
I know others who participate in nets and who keep weekly or daily
skeds. Those are not "random contacts".

I have proposed new ideas, projects, etc. I didn't say I just want others to do those projects for me. I would help with those projects - if there were interest. I have asked to volunteer for those types of activities on several occasions. The old-timers in the club are NOT interested in those types of activities.

Nothing precludes you from tackling projects which interest you. "Old
timers" might not be interested in the particular projects you've
proposed. They might not be interested in such as group activities.
A third alternative is that your personality grates on them.

However, they will put extra effort into teaching code classes to
get people to operate Morse code.

Operate or learn? All of them, en masse put in extra effort or just
some of them put in extra effort? Why do you object if someone desires
to do something which is different than what you desire?

Don't blame the newcomers - its the old-timers that want to keep
things as they are.

First you'll have to come to an understanding of what it is which "old
timers" want before you begin to lecture us or them from your rather
shallow pool of knowledge on the subject.

Dave K8MN

From: Dave Heil k8mn

Simple, the old-timers are not interested in new ideas.

Your statement is not substantiated by fact.

It is a broad generalization, which, unless there is a logical influence,
cannot support itself. However, I did not say 100% old-timer are not interested
in new ideas, just that there is a tendency for that in Ham radio. Thats my,
and other's, experience, so is not substantiated by fact.

The first part of your statement is not "an example" at all. Morse code
has demonstrated its usefulness and is still widely used in amateur
radio. Someone might "hold on" to morse code and be very active with
newer modes or might be involved in electronic circuit design.

In my local club newsletter. The club states that a new HF setup is keeping
with the goal of advancement of the radio art. However, the do little else
towards that effect, despite having alot of resourses which can be utilized for
technical activities. Also, few club members are interested in homebrewing,
despite claiming interest by posing for a photograph showing club members doing
a group project. So, the "advancement of the radio art" is just a justification
for more HF/CW activities.

The second part of your statement, the one about pressuring new Hams to
learn morse code is unsubstantiated by fact.

At various antenna setups, the other Hams try to persuade me to learn Morse
code. This has happened several times.

Some new hams don't want
to learn morse code and don't.

The third part of your statement, dealing with the exclusion of those
who don't want to learn morse code, is unsubstantiated by fact.

The ones that do become popular with the other club members. The ones that
don't want to learn Morse code become excluded.

How do you know what "most old timers" do and what they are not
interested in? I know old timers who are very technically inclined

All I can say is what I have found in my area and in several other states.
There have been exceptions of course, but it is too rare to be worth the
effort. I cannot search out the contradiction.

Vshah101 wrote:

From: Dave Heil k8mn

Simple, the old-timers are not interested in new ideas.

Your statement is not substantiated by fact.

It is a broad generalization, which, unless there is a logical influence, cannot support itself.

It certainly is broad and it certainly doesn't support itself.

However, I did not say 100% old-timer are not interested
in new ideas, just that there is a tendency for that in Ham radio.

Actually, that is not what you said at all. What you said is:
"Simple, the old-timers are not interested in new ideas."

Thats my,
and other's, experience, so is not substantiated by fact.

No "other's" have confirmed your claim.

The first part of your statement is not "an example" at all. Morse code
has demonstrated its usefulness and is still widely used in amateur
radio. Someone might "hold on" to morse code and be very active with
newer modes or might be involved in electronic circuit design.

In my local club newsletter. The club states that a new HF setup is keeping
with the goal of advancement of the radio art. However, the do little else
towards that effect, despite having alot of resourses which can be utilized for
technical activities.

They're probably doing all that when you aren't around.

Also, few club members are interested in homebrewing,
despite claiming interest by posing for a photograph showing club members doing a group project.

Well, they do have photographic proof. We're stuck with just your
claim.

So, the "advancement of the radio art" is just a justification
for more HF/CW activities.

So you're back to telling them where their interests should lie.

The second part of your statement, the one about pressuring new Hams to
learn morse code is unsubstantiated by fact.

At various antenna setups, the other Hams try to persuade me to learn Morse code. This has happened several times.

And it was "pressure", not "encouragement"? Did it dawn on you that
they might be going easier on others and that they save the high
pressure tactics for you?

Some new hams don't want
to learn morse code and don't.

The third part of your statement, dealing with the exclusion of those
who don't want to learn morse code, is unsubstantiated by fact.

The ones that do become popular with the other club members. The ones that
don't want to learn Morse code become excluded.

Ahhh! So it is just you and it is now about popularity.

How do you know what "most old timers" do and what they are not
interested in? I know old timers who are very technically inclined

All I can say is what I have found in my area and in several other states.

I'll wager that most "old timers" aren't even involved with a radio
club. You'll have to use the callsign database and begin making phone
calls or knocking on doors to come up with a scientific sampling, Vipul.
I'd like to be able to feel sorry for you but my experience tells me
that you don't really have a handle on reality.


There have been exceptions of course, but it is too rare to be worth the effort. I cannot search out the contradiction.

That's right. You've begun with an outcome and you're trying to make
the statistics fit that outcome. Good luck.

Dave K8MN

From: Dave Heil k8mn

Also, few club members are interested in homebrewing,
despite claiming interest by posing for a photograph showing club members
doing a group project.

Well, they do have photographic proof. We're stuck with just your
claim.

No, they only posed for the photograph. It does not mean that they actually did
that activity. I can ask people in that photograph if they are interested in
homebrewing and that person will say he is not interested in homebrewing.

Therefore, the photograph is just hype and does not represent what the club is
really interested in.

So, the "advancement of the radio art" is just a justification
for more HF/CW activities.

So you're back to telling them where their interests should lie.

I didn't say they were interested in homebrewing - the photograph did. It takes
a prominant place in the club publicity. Except, the photograph is a
mis-representation of what the club members are truly interested in.

I'll wager that most "old timers" aren't even involved with a radio
club.

They don't go to club meetings. And they don't go to Hamfests. Nor are they on
2m. I get it - they don't exist.

You'll have to use the callsign database and begin making phone
calls or knocking on doors to come up with a scientific sampling

A scientific sampling is not needed by me, nor any potential new recruit to Ham
radio. If that person's experiences are of anti-social, mostly male, mostly
older, non-technical (if they are interested in that), Hams, then thats all
they need to know. It won't do much good to show them the other aspect that
"could" exist, but does not exist for them.

There have been exceptions of course, but it is too rare to be worth the
effort. I cannot search out the contradiction.

That's right. You've begun with an outcome and you're trying to make
the statistics fit that outcome.

I'm not making any statistics fit. I'm saying that if something is 95%* and it
takes you a certain amount of time to come across the other 5%, then its not
worth the effort.

----------------------------------------------------------------
*The 95% number is given for example purposes only. It is not meant to
represent a specific percentage.

(Vshah101) wrote in message ...
From: Dave Heil k8mn

Also, few club members are interested in homebrewing,
despite claiming interest by posing for a photograph showing club members
doing a group project.

Well, they do have photographic proof. We're stuck with just your
claim.

No, they only posed for the photograph. It does not mean that they actually did
that activity. I can ask people in that photograph if they are interested in
homebrewing and that person will say he is not interested in homebrewing.

Therefore, the photograph is just hype and does not represent what the club is
really interested in.

So far all we "have" is your word, which is, at best, dubious,
that this really occured. You won't ID the club, any of the members,
a web page with the news letter on it, etc etc etc.

So, the "advancement of the radio art" is just a justification
for more HF/CW activities.

So you're back to telling them where their interests should lie.

I didn't say they were interested in homebrewing - the photograph did. It takes
a prominant place in the club publicity. Except, the photograph is a
mis-representation of what the club members are truly interested in.

PAY ATTENTION WO WHAT WAS SAID, VIPUL!

(What's with all the allegedly college educated "engineer types".

What was said was YOU are back to telling "them" where thier
interests should lay. And you do. You constantly barrage this NG
with YOUR interpretation of what Amatuer Radio should be and how
"wrong" other Amateurs are for not following THAT doctrine.

I'll wager that most "old timers" aren't even involved with a radio
club.

They don't go to club meetings. And they don't go to Hamfests. Nor are they on
2m. I get it - they don't exist.

You'll have to use the callsign database and begin making phone
calls or knocking on doors to come up with a scientific sampling

A scientific sampling is not needed by me, nor any potential new recruit to Ham
radio. If that person's experiences are of anti-social, mostly male, mostly
older, non-technical (if they are interested in that), Hams, then thats all
they need to know. It won't do much good to show them the other aspect that
"could" exist, but does not exist for them.

Your creepiness is getting worse.

There have been exceptions of course, but it is too rare to be worth the
effort. I cannot search out the contradiction.

That's right. You've begun with an outcome and you're trying to make
the statistics fit that outcome.

I'm not making any statistics fit. I'm saying that if something is 95%* and it
takes you a certain amount of time to come across the other 5%, then its not
worth the effort.

Depends on what the "5%" is, Vippy, and whether or not you've got
the perseverence to find it or not. If the "95%" is clay, and the
"5%" is gold, then isn't it worth it to you to get your blue jeans a
bit dirty...???

----------------------------------------------------------------
*The 95% number is given for example purposes only. It is not meant to
represent a specific percentage.

"95%" IS a specific percentage. YOU quantified it, Vipster.

Steve, K4YZ

From: (Steve Robeson, K4CAP)

You won't ID the club, any of the members,
I have more respect than that.


What was said was YOU are back to telling "them" where thier
interests should lay.

And neither should they tell me what my interests should be. Like, telling
people at club meetings that they should learn Morse code. Or, suggesting I
should learn Morse code when I participate in antenna setups or at Ham
gatherings.

You constantly barrage this NG
with YOUR interpretation of what Amatuer Radio should be and how
"wrong" other Amateurs are for not following THAT doctrine.

Like the current group of Hams do in their groups?

If the "95%" is clay,
Okay, makes sense.

and the
"5%" is gold, then isn't it worth it to you to get your blue jeans a
bit dirty...???

That 5% is gold at the end of a rainbow (it doesn't exist).