"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Bert Craig" wrote:


You mean the second most popular mode
in use today doesn't rate as a valid test
requirement determinator. (snip)


If you're going to argue that to justify a test requirement for the
second
most popular mode, why not argue the same for the third, forth, or even
fifth, most popular modes?


OH, NO...Dwight. Now we're thinking alike! Hmmmm, 'cept you forgot to
mention testing *THE* most popular mode!

Kim W5TIT

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...

Morse code/CW is unique and cannot be covered by the written tests.
Actually I happen to believe that there would be great benefit to
requiring
candidates to demonstrate other basic skills, such as soldering a PL-259
to
coax as an example, for licensing. But I know it won't happen.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


There ya go!!! Man, I'd love to see establishing a station
tested--AND--that can be done either through written explanation or physical
demonstration. And, soldering would certain be something that I'd agree
with, too!

Kim W5TIT

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Bert Craig" wrote:

(snip) The fact is that Morse code IS
the second most popular mode in use
in the ARS today. IMHO, that in itself
is sufficient justification. (snip)


And, in my humble opinion, it is not sufficient justification - no more
than the fact that vacuum tubes or circular analog tuning dials were once
popular justifies a requirement that they continue to be used. Clearly,
unless there is a valid reason otherwise, anyone should be free to use
those
if he or she wants, but there should be no government regulation mandating
that. The same with Morse code.

Nobody's forcing anybody to use it, just learn it...and only for HF privies.

Remember, we're talking about the 5-wpm
test, NOT 13 0r 20.


If a person has no interest in code, the speed certainly isn't going to
change that.

At 5-wpm, it's more a demonstration of discipline than proficiency. That is
where the true crux lies.

(snip) Yes, I would very much "like to
continue mandating a skill test for a mode
that is all but gone from the world of
radio communications EXCEPT WITHIN
AMATEUR USE." Thats because it's a
skill test for upgrading within, not entry
into, the ARS (snip)


The Amateur Radio Service does not exist in a vacuum, Bert. The FCC
recently said "the emphasis on Morse code proficiency as a licensing
requirement does not comport with the basis and purpose of the service."
They came to that conclusion after looking at modern communications
systems
outside Amateur Radio and the changes that have occurred in communications
over the last fifty years. They noted that "no communication system has
been
designed in many years that depends on hand-keyed telegraphy or the
ability
to receive messages in Morse code by ear." And they said reducing the
emphasis on telegraphy proficiency as a licensing requirement would "allow
the amateur service to, as it has in the past, attract technically
inclined
persons, particularly the youth of our country, and encourage them to
learn
and to prepare themselves in the areas where the United States needs
expertise."

They've already reduced the emphasis by creating the no-code Technician
ticket and further by reducing the required code speed for the General and
Extra tickets.

You mean the second most popular mode
in use today doesn't rate as a valid test
requirement determinator. (snip)


If you're going to argue that to justify a test requirement for the
second
most popular mode, why not argue the same for the third, forth, or even
fifth, most popular modes?

Unique skill, Dwight...decoded by the human brain. Speach for phone and
reading ability for digital are skills brought into the fray from day one.

By the way, where did you get the idea that CW was the second most
popular
mode? I agree that SSB is probably the most popular. But, given the sheer
numbers of Technicians today and the fact that not all others use CW on a
regular basis, certainly far more people use FM than CW today.

My apologies, I should have been more clear. I actually meant Phone vs.
Morse code. I used SSB because I almost never use FM, only for ARES work.
Additionally, I'm pretty much always on HF.

Note that the newsgroups "rec.radio.cb" and "rec.radio.shortwave" were
removed from this reply (off-topic in those newsgroup).

Good call, Dwight. Embarassingly enough, I hadn't even noticed.

Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

73 de Bert
WA2SI

In article om, "Dee D.
Flint" writes:

After playing around search the FCC database, the previous license of the
vanity holder appears to be marked as terminated not expired so that the
vanity call rules do not effect the numbers if the search is done correctly.
If one searches for expired only, what they get as a result are only those
that have lapsed due to non-renewal not those terminated due to changes in
call sign and not those terminated due to disciplinary actions by the FCC.

Agreed on all that but my point was somewhat different.

With one exception, the way the rules have worked for some time now is that you
can only renew within a time window of 90 days before or two years after your
license expires. So it would seem that the expiration dates would be spread out
over time, and not cluster in any particular year.

But a vanity call gets you a renewal regardless of where you are in the license
term. And when the vanity rules changed, there was naturally a spike in
application numbers - and 10 years later, a spike in expirations.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Dee D. Flint" wrote

You will of course expect the licensing exam to be equivalent to the sum
of
knowledge required for Tech, General and Extra for this single full
privilege license.

Yes. Good plan. (Toss in Novice and Advanced while we're on the topic.)

73, de Hans, K0HB

Answer the question asked...The question is, for those that need
clarity: IF someone became a General or Extra with NO
code skills, and then decided to learn code on-the-air, what's
the harm, danger, etc?




So lets see here. If the new jet airliners will fly and land
themselves, the persons that occupy the cockpit don't really need to
learn to fly. Makes perfect sense. They don't need to learn to fly
because the computer does it for them.

"Kim W5TIT" wrote in message
...
"Bert Craig" wrote in message
et...
"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bert Craig" wrote in message
om...
Lets's save some bandwidth, snip!
I'm not talking about "knowing" the code, Bill. Very few people
actually "know" the code from preparing for and passing Element 1.
I'm
addressing the self-discipline required to accept the challenge and
meet the requirements to upgrade one's privileges rather than
complain
about how one never plans on using it.

Translation, I did it, so should everyone else.
Using your philosophy, the FCC should never change requirements...
even when a specific requirement no longer has justification.

That's not it at all. The fact is that Morse code IS the second most
popular
mode in use in the ARS today. IMHO, that in itself is sufficient
justification. Remember, we're talking about the 5-wpm test, NOT 13 0r
20.


Bert, if you're using popularity as a justification--and the test
questions
may have changed to inlcude this since I entered ham radio--then why are
there no questions or demonstration required during testing for the
*number
1* most popular mode of operation?

Because for 99.9% of ARO's, speach is a skill that's already in our toolbox
upon entry into the ARS.

Not that I am arguing against your desire to see CW stay as a test
element--that is your desire and I have no problem with it at all. But,
the
argument of popularity probably doesn't, in fact doesn't with me, hold
water
for importance--and can be turned around to my question above: why not
have
questions based on phone operation and also have the mode tested? A net
condition is easy to establish for testing, doesn't even really require
radio at all (it could be "pretended" in any room with more than one
person).

I understand, Kim...and I agree. Whatever the questions or "requirements"
are, bring 'em on. I'd be willing to make the effort to meet the
requirements for the desired privies.


No problem there and I don't oppose "knowledge" questions
about CW the mode. The issue is the stand alone skill test
for morse which is a separate pass fail element. NO other
mode is set on that pedestal.

Is this really an issue at 5-wpm, Bill?


For me, there is an issue at *any* speed for CW testing. It's validity
has
waned.

See the language post I pasted into my reply to Bill's post. I can
communicate effectively with my Japanese counterpart without actually
speaking Japanese. Let 'em try that on phone.


You are free to propose any changes you wish. Others already
have done so.

The changes I find acceptable are already in a RM proposal. I've sent
multiple letters and/or e-mails to my elected representatives, the
entire
ARRL leadership, and the FCC. That'll suffice for now, thanks.


heh heh...see...I haven't sent any, as the issue isn't that important to
me
and I can live with it either way. I really never intend on upgrading,
and
already 5 wpm. I leave the real meat of this issue to those who are that
passionate about it.

A reasonable stance.


You'd rather we continue mandating a skill test for a mode that
is all but totally gone from the world of radio communications
except within amateur use? Again, per my comment above,
NO other mode has its own unique test. That's the point.

YEAH BABY!!! You are THE BEST, Bill...thank you, thank you, thank you!
Yes,
I would very much "like to continue mandating a skill test for a mode
that
is all but gone from the world of radio communications EXCEPT WITHIN
AMATEUR
USE." Thats because it's a skill test for upgrading within, not entry
into,
the ARS and the mode is the second most popular mode in use in the ARS
today. Too easy, Bill.


Again, I point out that it would probably not be a plus for the FCC to
continue facilitating a CW test, when it is nearly only the ARS that has
it
in use today. I am not sure what costs are associated with administering
the CW test, but one must inlcude any time spent/wasted (depending on your
point of view) for the FCC, congresspersons, etc., to read and deal with
the
issue.

I agree that time and expenditure is at the heart of the FCC's support of
ending code testing.


So let me get this straight. You wantis some undefined,
unmeasurable amount of effort that the FCC should be
trying to have in place for any license level?

No Bill, I want a very defined (Element 1) very measurable (5-wpm)
effort
for two (Not any.) license levels.


I think it's OK to have two license levels. But, rather than a CW test,
I'd
support nearly anything else but a mode test--any mode. Written tests
suffice for any level of license.

Mee too, just can the published Q&A pools.


Irrelavent. The point is NOT the effort, and the FCC has
already chimed in on the. The test must exist or go based
on a clear and understood need for the knowledge. EFFORT
is not now and never has been recognized as a valid test requirement
determinator.

You mean the second most popular mode in use today doesn't rate as a
valid
test requirement determinator. Gee, we could have one for the first most
popular, SSB, but we already know how to talk. That's way the
stand-alone,
Bill. It's a learned skill that's an unknown coming in. (Unlike speech.)


Ruh roh...there you go again with the "second most popular mode." If that
is justification, then the first most popular mode needs to be tested, not
the second.

Bring it on.

Kim W5TIT

73 de Bert
WA2SI

"N2EY" wrote

And when the vanity rules changed, there was naturally a spike in
application numbers - and 10 years later, a spike in expirations.

We're about 30 months shy of even the leading edge of that spike.

73, Hans, K0HB

Dwight Stewart wrote:
"Bert Craig" wrote:

(snip) The fact is that Morse code IS
the second most popular mode in use
in the ARS today. IMHO, that in itself
is sufficient justification. (snip)



And, in my humble opinion, it is not sufficient justification - no more
than the fact that vacuum tubes or circular analog tuning dials were once
popular justifies a requirement that they continue to be used. Clearly,
unless there is a valid reason otherwise, anyone should be free to use those
if he or she wants, but there should be no government regulation mandating
that. The same with Morse code.


Dwight, how about giving us a good rational reason to continue testing
at all. I can break every reason with either rationale or minor
modifications to equipment.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article ,
"Bert Craig" wrote:

snip

That's not it at all. The fact is that Morse code IS the second most popular
mode in use in the ARS today. IMHO, that in itself is sufficient
justification. Remember, we're talking about the 5-wpm test, NOT 13 0r 20.

snip

That's nice. The thread has moved on to the other main amateur Troll
subject "code." Nobody in rec.radio.shortwave cares. Please trim the
newsgroups.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California