"Dave Heil" wrote:
"Dwight Stewart" wrote:
(snip)

I'm sorry, I can't agree with your new age
"everyone's opinion has value" when the
topic is something in which someone has
no background. (snip)


Really? So, if you have no background in senior levels of government or no
background in the issues at hand, you don't offer opinions when the
government decides to makes policy decisions (taxes, immigration, welfare,
social security, foreign affairs, and so on)? I find that highly unlikely,
Dave. Code testing is a government decision/policy. And the right of the
people to have a say in government decisions and policies is not "new age"
thing.


I take it that you believe that your opinions
on child birth would be meaningful or
relevant to a woman who has had several
children and that your views on space flights
would be found useful to NASA engineers.


Nice dodge, Dave. But we're not talking about a woman with several
children or NASA engineers - this is a discussion about government policy.
And, when it come to that (even abortion and NASA financing), I do expect my
views to matter. After all, my tax dollars are paying for it. Code testing
is also a government policy and the radio frequencies involved belong to all
Americans.


I didn't know a "special" knowledge or
background was required. It doesn't take
great knowledge, or an indepth background,
to see that Morse code is a declining skill
throughout the radio world.

Not in amateur radio, it isn't. Now you see that
you and Len share a common mistaken view.
Each of you might have a desire to see it as a
truth but reality doesn't seem to bear it out.


What mistaken view - that the rest of the radio world must be considered
when discussing code testing? If so, you're the one mistaken here. The FCC
itself has even taken that view in the Report & Order following the last
round of restructuring when they said;

"We are persuaded that because the
amateur service is fundamentally a
technical service, the emphasis on
Morse code proficiency as a licensing
requirement does not comport with
the basis and purpose of the service.
We note, moreover, that the design of
modern communications systems,
including personal communication
services, satellite, fiber optic, and high
definition television systems, are based
on digital communication technologies.
We also note that no communication
system has been designed in many years
that depends on hand-keyed telegraphy
or the ability to receive messages in
Morse code by ear. In contrast,
modern communication systems are
designed to be automated systems.
Given the changes that have occurred in
communications in the last fifty years,
we believe that reducing the emphasis on
telegraphy proficiency as a licensing
requirement will allow the amateur service
to, as it has in the past, attract technically
inclined persons, particularly the youth of
our country, and encourage them to learn
and to prepare themselves in the areas
where the United States needs expertise."

The FCC went on to later say;

"We also note that most amateur radio
operators who choose to provide
emergency communication do so,
according to the amateur radio press,
using voice or digital modes of
communication, in part, because
information can be exchanged much
faster using these other modes of
communication. Further, we note that
in traditional emergency services, such
as police, fire, and rescue, there is no
requirement that emergency service
personnel hold amateur radio licenses
or any other license that requires
telegraphy proficiency. We conclude,
therefore, that telegraphy proficiency is
not a significant factor in determining an
individual's ability to provide or be
prepared to provide emergency
communications."

Note the references throughout to other radio services and to other,
non-Amateur, radio technologies. If we're going to remain a valuable radio
service, worthy of the massive frequencies we hold and unlike personal radio
services (CB), then our ability to fit with and contribute to those outside
Amateur Radio must be a factor in this discussion.


Lets be honest here, Dave. I seriously doubt
his lack of a license, or comments (condescending,
outragious, or otherwise), would really bother you
that much if those comments agreed more with
your own views.

Really? Have you noticed a single occasion where
I've supported the posts of Bruce?


I also haven't noticed an ongoing effort to criticize and ridicule Bruce's
posts as you've done with Len's.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
k.net...
"Dave Heil" wrote:
"Dwight Stewart" wrote:
(snip)

I'm sorry, I can't agree with your new age
"everyone's opinion has value" when the
topic is something in which someone has
no background. (snip)


Really? So, if you have no background in senior levels of government or
no
background in the issues at hand, you don't offer opinions when the
government decides to makes policy decisions (taxes, immigration, welfare,
social security, foreign affairs, and so on)? I find that highly unlikely,
Dave. Code testing is a government decision/policy. And the right of the
people to have a say in government decisions and policies is not "new age"
thing.


But, Dwight....Dave's principles (if they could be called that) only apply
to others!! Not himself.

Hang in there, though...this one could get good! I am getting popcorn
before I download messages next time!

Kim W5TIT

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) Hang in there, though...this one could
get good! I am getting popcorn before I
download messages next time!


Pop me up some popcorn while you're at it. :-)


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) Hang in there, though...this one could
get good! I am getting popcorn before I
download messages next time!


Pop me up some popcorn while you're at it. :-)


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/


Hey, no way. Well, OK, way. BUT, I'll pop it and eat it for you. You need
to keep busy! LOL

Kim W5TIT

"Kim W5TIT" wrote in message ...
"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
k.net...
"Dave Heil" wrote:
"Dwight Stewart" wrote:
(snip)

I'm sorry, I can't agree with your new age
"everyone's opinion has value" when the
topic is something in which someone has
no background. (snip)


Really? So, if you have no background in senior levels of government or
no
background in the issues at hand, you don't offer opinions when the
government decides to makes policy decisions (taxes, immigration, welfare,
social security, foreign affairs, and so on)? I find that highly unlikely,
Dave. Code testing is a government decision/policy. And the right of the
people to have a say in government decisions and policies is not "new age"
thing.


But, Dwight....Dave's principles (if they could be called that) only apply
to others!! Not himself.

Hang in there, though...this one could get good! I am getting popcorn
before I download messages next time!

Kim W5TIT

Chardonnay goes nicely with popcorn.

Brian wrote:

"Kim W5TIT" wrote in message ...

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Dave Heil" wrote:

"Dwight Stewart" wrote:

(snip)

I'm sorry, I can't agree with your new age
"everyone's opinion has value" when the
topic is something in which someone has
no background. (snip)


Really? So, if you have no background in senior levels of government or

no

background in the issues at hand, you don't offer opinions when the
government decides to makes policy decisions (taxes, immigration, welfare,
social security, foreign affairs, and so on)? I find that highly unlikely,
Dave. Code testing is a government decision/policy. And the right of the
people to have a say in government decisions and policies is not "new age"
thing.


But, Dwight....Dave's principles (if they could be called that) only apply
to others!! Not himself.

Hang in there, though...this one could get good! I am getting popcorn
before I download messages next time!

Kim W5TIT


Chardonnay goes nicely with popcorn.

BEER goes with popcorn! Especially a nice IPA.

Which reminds me, if there is a rrap get together at Dayton, maybe we
can trade off some homebrews.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message . ..
Brian wrote:

"Kim W5TIT" wrote in message ...

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Dave Heil" wrote:

"Dwight Stewart" wrote:

(snip)

I'm sorry, I can't agree with your new age
"everyone's opinion has value" when the
topic is something in which someone has
no background. (snip)


Really? So, if you have no background in senior levels of government or

no

background in the issues at hand, you don't offer opinions when the
government decides to makes policy decisions (taxes, immigration, welfare,
social security, foreign affairs, and so on)? I find that highly unlikely,
Dave. Code testing is a government decision/policy. And the right of the
people to have a say in government decisions and policies is not "new age"
thing.


But, Dwight....Dave's principles (if they could be called that) only apply
to others!! Not himself.

Hang in there, though...this one could get good! I am getting popcorn
before I download messages next time!

Kim W5TIT


Chardonnay goes nicely with popcorn.

BEER goes with popcorn! Especially a nice IPA.

Which reminds me, if there is a rrap get together at Dayton, maybe we
can trade off some homebrews.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Sounds great. I've been focusing on winemaking lately, so I'll have
to bring some of each.

bb

Dwight Stewart wrote:

"Dave Heil" wrote:
"Dwight Stewart" wrote:
(snip)

I'm sorry, I can't agree with your new age
"everyone's opinion has value" when the
topic is something in which someone has
no background. (snip)

Really?

Really.

So, if you have no background in senior levels of government or no
background in the issues at hand, you don't offer opinions when the
government decides to makes policy decisions (taxes, immigration, welfare,
social security, foreign affairs, and so on)? I find that highly unlikely,
Dave. Code testing is a government decision/policy. And the right of the
people to have a say in government decisions and policies is not "new age"
thing.

Offering an opinion and offering a sound opinion based upon experience
can be two quite different things. An opinion offered by someone who
has little or no knowledge of that being discussed isn't likely to be
worth much.

I take it that you believe that your opinions
on child birth would be meaningful or
relevant to a woman who has had several
children and that your views on space flights
would be found useful to NASA engineers.

Nice dodge, Dave.

Thanks. How did you know that I drive a Dodge?

But we're not talking about a woman with several
children or NASA engineers - this is a discussion about government policy.

Why, Dwight! It was you who brought up those very items. How can it be
a dodge when I respond to them? Let's now discuss them as government
policy. What value would your suggestions on child bearing policy or
NASA policy have to those making decisions?

And, when it come to that (even abortion and NASA financing), I do expect my views to matter.

We all have unfulfilled expectations.

After all, my tax dollars are paying for it. Code testing
is also a government policy and the radio frequencies involved belong to all
Americans.

Your tax dollars couldn't provide fuel for a rocket engine test-firing.
Have your view. Speak your mind. Don't expect others to greet your
views with reverence if you have no background in the matter under
discussion.

I didn't know a "special" knowledge or
background was required. It doesn't take
great knowledge, or an indepth background,
to see that Morse code is a declining skill
throughout the radio world.

Not in amateur radio, it isn't. Now you see that
you and Len share a common mistaken view.
Each of you might have a desire to see it as a
truth but reality doesn't seem to bear it out.

What mistaken view - that the rest of the radio world must be considered
when discussing code testing? If so, you're the one mistaken here.

The mistake is in the view that morse use is declining in amateur radio.
It matters not that the morse isn't used much by other radio services.


The FCC
itself has even taken that view in the Report & Order following the last
round of restructuring when they said;

"We are persuaded that because the
amateur service is fundamentally a
technical service, the emphasis on
Morse code proficiency as a licensing
requirement does not comport with
the basis and purpose of the service.
snip
we believe that reducing the emphasis on
telegraphy proficiency as a licensing
requirement will allow the amateur service
to, as it has in the past, attract technically
inclined persons, particularly the youth of
our country, and encourage them to learn
and to prepare themselves in the areas
where the United States needs expertise."

Morse testing is no longer emphasized as evidenced by the reduction in
speed to five wpm in testing for HF access. Now go out and prepare
yourself in areas where the U.S. needs technical expertise.

The FCC went on to later say;

"We also note that most amateur radio
operators who choose to provide
emergency communication do so,
according to the amateur radio press,
using voice or digital modes of
communication, in part, because
information can be exchanged much
faster using these other modes of
communication. Further, we note that
in traditional emergency services, such
as police, fire, and rescue, there is no
requirement that emergency service
personnel hold amateur radio licenses
or any other license that requires
telegraphy proficiency. We conclude,
therefore, that telegraphy proficiency is
not a significant factor in determining an
individual's ability to provide or be
prepared to provide emergency
communications."

Note the references throughout to other radio services and to other,
non-Amateur, radio technologies. If we're going to remain a valuable radio
service, worthy of the massive frequencies we hold and unlike personal radio
services (CB), then our ability to fit with and contribute to those outside
Amateur Radio must be a factor in this discussion.

Nothing in a five word per minute morse test prevents you from
performing public service work to your heart's content via digital or
voice modes. This public service work, according to FCC, is something
you may or may not choose to do. It is not mandatory.

Lets be honest here, Dave. I seriously doubt
his lack of a license, or comments (condescending,
outragious, or otherwise), would really bother you
that much if those comments agreed more with
your own views.

Really? Have you noticed a single occasion where
I've supported the posts of Bruce?

I also haven't noticed an ongoing effort to criticize and ridicule Bruce's
posts as you've done with Len's.

To be very honest, Dwight, Bruce is rather a dim bulb and I seldom read
his posts, much less respond to them. Is an ongoing effort necessary or
am I permitted to choose to which posts I'll respond?

Dave K8MN

"Dave Heil" wrote:
Dwight Stewart wrote:

But we're not talking about a woman with
several children or NASA engineers - this
is a discussion about government policy.

Why, Dwight! It was you who brought up
those very items. How can it be a dodge
when I respond to them? (snip)


As you know, they (child birth and NASA) were brought up in a discussion
about government policy. Your reply was a dodge because you tried to apply
those comments to something other than government policy rather than
addressing them in the context they were made.


(snip) What value would your suggestions on
child bearing policy or NASA policy have to
those making decisions? (snip)


We were talking about opinions, not suggestions. My opinions affect how I
vote, which effects who is elected, which effects where tax dollars are
spent, and so on. My opinions, voiced to others, may affect their opinions,
which effects who is elected, and so on. Is this process all that unfamiliar
to you?


(snip) Don't expect others to greet your views
with reverence if you have no background in the
matter under discussion. (snip)


Don't be so vain, Dave. You don't speak for "others" and I don't expect
anything from you.


(snip) The mistake is in the view that morse use
is declining in amateur radio. (snip)


I haven't said Morse use is declining in Amateur Radio. My exact words
were "...Morse code is a declining skill throughout the radio world."
Considering far fewer people in radio today are using code compared to just
few decades ago, that isn't exactly an astonishing revelation, is it?


(snip) It matters not that the morse isn't used much
by other radio services. (snip)


Oh, it most certainly does matter. As I've already stated, if we're going
to remain a valuable radio service, worthy of the massive frequencies we
hold and unlike personal radio services (CB), we must consider the needs of
the other radio services when discussing any licensing issue - including
code testing.

The FCC did exactly that in the Report & Order following the last round of
restructuring when they looked at personal communication services, satellite
communications, fiber optic communications, high definition television
systems, and police, fire, and rescue communications. In that Report &
Order, the FCC stated that "...no communication system has been designed in
many years that depends on hand-keyed telegraphy or the ability to receive
messages in Morse code by ear" and that "...the emphasis on Morse code
proficiency as a licensing requirement does not comport with the basis and
purpose of the service." Finally, the FCC said, "...reducing the emphasis on
telegraphy proficiency as a licensing requirement will allow the amateur
service to, as it has in the past, attract technically inclined persons,
particularly the youth of our country, and encourage them to learn and to
prepare themselves in the areas where the United States needs expertise." In
my opinion, the exact same argument could be made for eliminating telegraphy
proficiency as a licensing requirement.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

Dwight Stewart wrote:

"Dave Heil" wrote:
Dwight Stewart wrote:

But we're not talking about a woman with
several children or NASA engineers - this
is a discussion about government policy.

Why, Dwight! It was you who brought up
those very items. How can it be a dodge
when I respond to them? (snip)

As you know, they (child birth and NASA) were brought up in a discussion
about government policy. Your reply was a dodge because you tried to apply
those comments to something other than government policy rather than
addressing them in the context they were made.

Your earlier comments:

"Dave, I don't have a background in a lot of things (child birth,
international affairs with Belarus, NASA space missions, to name just a
few), but expect to have a voice in those things when I have something
to say and would be darn offended, and very confrontational..."

Please point out the portion in which you state that you're discussing
government policy on child birth, NASA, etc.

(snip) What value would your suggestions on
child bearing policy or NASA policy have to
those making decisions? (snip)

We were talking about opinions, not suggestions. My opinions affect how I
vote, which effects who is elected, which effects where tax dollars are
spent, and so on. My opinions, voiced to others, may affect their opinions,
which effects who is elected, and so on. Is this process all that unfamiliar
to you?

Not at all. Opinions become suggestions all the time. Are you familiar
with Len's lengthy submission to the FCC regarding the morse test?
Would you believe his words could be construed as being suggestions to
the FCC? Would they be considered as Len's opinions?

(snip) Don't expect others to greet your views
with reverence if you have no background in the
matter under discussion. (snip)

Don't be so vain, Dave. You don't speak for "others" and I don't
expect anything from you.

My comments had nothing to do with vanity.

(snip) The mistake is in the view that morse use
is declining in amateur radio. (snip)

I haven't said Morse use is declining in Amateur Radio. My exact words
were "...Morse code is a declining skill throughout the radio world."

That's what you wrote, alright. I pointed out that morse use is not
declining in amateur radio. Amateur radio is certainly part of the
radio world.

Considering far fewer people in radio today are using code compared to just
few decades ago, that isn't exactly an astonishing revelation, is it?

(snip) It matters not that the morse isn't used much
by other radio services. (snip)

Oh, it most certainly does matter. As I've already stated, if we're going
to remain a valuable radio service, worthy of the massive frequencies we
hold and unlike personal radio services (CB), we must consider the needs of
the other radio services when discussing any licensing issue - including
code testing.

The needs of other radio services? What need has any other service to
tell hams which modes to use? How would a great number of hams using
morse be less worthy of the "massive" frequencies we have for our use?

The FCC did exactly that in the Report & Order following the last round of
restructuring when they looked at personal communication services, satellite
communications, fiber optic communications, high definition television
systems, and police, fire, and rescue communications. In that Report &
Order, the FCC stated that "...no communication system has been designed in
many years that depends on hand-keyed telegraphy or the ability to receive
messages in Morse code by ear"...

Simple statement of fact. No new system has been developed. Yet
thousands of radio amateurs use morse daily.


and that "...the emphasis on Morse code
proficiency as a licensing requirement does not comport with the basis and
purpose of the service." Finally, the FCC said, "...reducing the emphasis on
telegraphy proficiency as a licensing requirement will allow the amateur
service to, as it has in the past, attract technically inclined persons,
particularly the youth of our country, and encourage them to learn and to
prepare themselves in the areas where the United States needs expertise."

Yup. Five words per minute isn't exactly emphasis on morse, is it?
Technically inclined people didn't let a morse test stop them in the
past and don't seem to let it stop them now. Much of the youth seems
busy downloading MP3 files and playing computer games.

In
my opinion, the exact same argument could be made for eliminating telegraphy
proficiency as a licensing requirement.

Maybe it could--if you believe that 5 wpm constitutes "emphasis".

Dave K8MN