"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
.net...
"Dee D. Flint" wrote:

"Dwight Stewart" wrote
Okay, Dee, show me where I said
Amateurs "must" do public service.

your words we

"...There is nothing in part 95 that
mandates public service like that
found in part 97."

tr.v. man·dat·ed, man·dat·ing, man·dates
1. To assign (a colony or territory) to
a specified nation under a mandate.
2. To make mandatory, as by law;
decree or requi mandated
desegregation of public schools.

The way you have used the word
conforms to usage number 2. Therefore,
you have stated that public service is
required even though that may not be
what you meant to say.


I don't have time to waste on this, Dee. You know what Part 97 says, and
what it means (and therefore what I meant). A more complete definition of
"mandate" is...

Noun: mandate ('man'deyt)
1. A document giving an official instruction or command
2. A territory surrendered by Turkey or Germany after World War I and
inhabited by people not yet able to stand by themselves and so put under
the
tutelage of some other European power
3. (politics) the commission that is given to a government and its
policies through an electoral victory

Verb: mandate (man'deyt)
1. Assign under a mandate; of nations
2. Assign authority to

I used mandate in the context that Part 97 assigns authority to Ham
radio
operators to perform public service through ARES, community organizations,
and so on. There is nothing like that in Part 95. Obviously, there is
nothing in "assigns authority to" that is required.



Your usage is still incorrect. There is nothing in Part 97 that assigns
authority to hams to do public service either. I've read part 97 from
beginning to end. Also there was no reason to include noun definitions when
working with the verb.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee D. Flint" wrote:

Your usage is still incorrect. There
is nothing in Part 97 that assigns
authority to hams to do public
service either. I've read part 97
from beginning to end. (snip)


Then you either cannot read or cannot understand what you've read.
Regardless, if you truly feel Part 97 does not authorize us to do public
service, then I simply don't have the time to convince you otherwise.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
k.net...

"Dee D. Flint" wrote:

Your usage is still incorrect. There
is nothing in Part 97 that assigns
authority to hams to do public
service either. I've read part 97
from beginning to end. (snip)


Then you either cannot read or cannot understand what you've read.
Regardless, if you truly feel Part 97 does not authorize us to do public
service, then I simply don't have the time to convince you otherwise.

Since no one is prohibited from doing public service, no authorization is
needed. However, if one wishes to use ham frequencies, they have to have
license but that is an authorization to operate specified frequencies not an
authorization to do public service.

If you will read 97.1, Basis and Purpose, it only lists recognition of and
encouragement of public service as one part of the basis and purpose. That
does not confer any type of mandate or authorization to the amateur to do
public service. It is a recognition of what we do and the value of what we
do. It is a good and solid justification to use for the continued existence
of amateur radio. Nothing more.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee D. Flint wrote:

Since no one is prohibited from doing
public service, no authorization is
needed. (snip)


To do the types of public service we're authorized to do (MARS, RACES, and
so on), authorization is required.

Sec. 97.407
(a) No station may transmit in RACES
unless it is an FCC-licensed primary,
club, or military recreation station and
it is certified by a civil defense organization
as registered with that organization, or it
is an FCC-licensed RACES station. (snip)

Care to show me where Part 95 authorizes CB'ers to operate a station at
all similar to a RACES station? What about a MARS station? What about
operations serving government agencies and others? In fact, show me where
Part 95 authorizes any activity beyond the recreational use of those
frequencies.


(snip) It is a recognition of what we
do and the value of what we do. It is
a good and solid justification to use
for the continued existence of amateur
radio. Nothing more.


Sadly, far too many in Amateur Radio today have that attitude towards
public service.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
k.net...
"Dee D. Flint wrote:

Since no one is prohibited from doing
public service, no authorization is
needed. (snip)


To do the types of public service we're authorized to do (MARS, RACES,
and
so on), authorization is required.

Sec. 97.407
(a) No station may transmit in RACES
unless it is an FCC-licensed primary,
club, or military recreation station and
it is certified by a civil defense organization
as registered with that organization, or it
is an FCC-licensed RACES station. (snip)

Care to show me where Part 95 authorizes CB'ers to operate a station at
all similar to a RACES station? What about a MARS station? What about
operations serving government agencies and others? In fact, show me where
Part 95 authorizes any activity beyond the recreational use of those
frequencies.



That is an authorization to operate on those frequencies and an
authorization to operate the station not an authorization to do public
service. There is a difference. And to do MARS or CAP, it is not the FCC
that authorizes you but other agencies and services. But I repeat that is
authorization to use the frequencies not authorization to do public service.
RACES is the same way. You have to be authorized for RACES operation but
that is not the same as authorizing one to do public service. RACES is a
very specific organization with very specific goals and tasks.

You do not and never have needed an authorization to do public service.
Where in the rules does it say that I need the FCC's authorization to do
communications at a walk-a-thon? Where in the rules does it state that I
need FCC's authorization to be part of the team that deployed here in the
Michigan area during the August power blackout? Where in the rules does it
say that I need the FCC's authorization to join ARES. Nowhere. The list
could go on and on.


(snip) It is a recognition of what we
do and the value of what we do. It is
a good and solid justification to use
for the continued existence of amateur
radio. Nothing more.


Sadly, far too many in Amateur Radio today have that attitude towards
public service.

Most of do follow the personal commitment to participate in public service
since it is not only a long and time honored tradition but the right thing
to do. That does not change the fact that there is no mandate to do so.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

In article om, "Dee D.
Flint" writes:

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Dee D. Flint wrote:

Since no one is prohibited from doing
public service, no authorization is
needed. (snip)


To do the types of public service we're authorized to do (MARS, RACES,
and
so on), authorization is required.

Sec. 97.407
(a) No station may transmit in RACES
unless it is an FCC-licensed primary,
club, or military recreation station and
it is certified by a civil defense organization
as registered with that organization, or it
is an FCC-licensed RACES station. (snip)

Care to show me where Part 95 authorizes CB'ers to operate a station at
all similar to a RACES station? What about a MARS station? What about
operations serving government agencies and others? In fact, show me where
Part 95 authorizes any activity beyond the recreational use of those
frequencies.



That is an authorization to operate on those frequencies and an
authorization to operate the station not an authorization to do public
service. There is a difference. And to do MARS or CAP, it is not the FCC
that authorizes you but other agencies and services. But I repeat that is
authorization to use the frequencies not authorization to do public service.
RACES is the same way. You have to be authorized for RACES operation but
that is not the same as authorizing one to do public service. RACES is a
very specific organization with very specific goals and tasks.

You do not and never have needed an authorization to do public service.
Where in the rules does it say that I need the FCC's authorization to do
communications at a walk-a-thon? Where in the rules does it state that I
need FCC's authorization to be part of the team that deployed here in the
Michigan area during the August power blackout? Where in the rules does it
say that I need the FCC's authorization to join ARES. Nowhere. The list
could go on and on.


(snip) It is a recognition of what we
do and the value of what we do. It is
a good and solid justification to use
for the continued existence of amateur
radio. Nothing more.


Sadly, far too many in Amateur Radio today have that attitude towards
public service.

Most of do follow the personal commitment to participate in public service
since it is not only a long and time honored tradition but the right thing
to do. That does not change the fact that there is no mandate to do so.

Right...and folks who ain't got no ham license or morse code
test passings don't do the right thing and are bad citizens.

Hoo hah...

WMD

"Dee D. Flint" wrote:
"Dwight Stewart" wrote:
To do the types of public service
we're authorized to do (MARS,
RACES, and so on), authorization
is required.

Sec. 97.407 (snip)


That is an authorization to operate
on those frequencies and an
authorization to operate the station
not an authorization to do public
service. (snip)


"That is authorization to operate on those frequencies" to do what, Dee?
The only answer is "public service" in this context. When it comes to
Amateur Radio, we perform our public service using the Amateur Radio
frequencies. And the FCC is the governing agency that says what is
authorized on those frequencies (not everything is - your license is not a
blank check to do what you want with the Amateur frequencies). For example,
when it comes to the walk-a-thon you mentioned, the FCC has set rules on
what is and isn't authorized in that situation. The same with your power
blackout situation. And the same with ARES. In other words, you are only
allowed to use your radio in situations authorized, and in the manner
authorized. One situation authorized is public service.


(snip) That does not change the fact
that there is no mandate to do so.


Again, the words mandate and authorization are synonymous.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote


Again, the words mandate and authorization are synonymous.


Not in any dictionary I can find, nor in Roget's.

73, de Hans, K0HB
--
Reality doesn't care what you believe.

In article et, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:

"Dee D. Flint" wrote:
"Dwight Stewart" wrote:
To do the types of public service
we're authorized to do (MARS,
RACES, and so on), authorization
is required.

Sec. 97.407 (snip)

That is an authorization to operate
on those frequencies and an
authorization to operate the station
not an authorization to do public
service. (snip)

"That is authorization to operate on those frequencies" to do what, Dee?
The only answer is "public service" in this context. When it comes to
Amateur Radio, we perform our public service using the Amateur Radio
frequencies. And the FCC is the governing agency that says what is
authorized on those frequencies (not everything is - your license is not a
blank check to do what you want with the Amateur frequencies). For example,
when it comes to the walk-a-thon you mentioned, the FCC has set rules on
what is and isn't authorized in that situation. The same with your power
blackout situation. And the same with ARES. In other words, you are only
allowed to use your radio in situations authorized, and in the manner
authorized. One situation authorized is public service.

Dwight, throughout ALL of Title 47, Code of Federal Regulations,
the word "service" is a regulatory term used to denote the type
and kind of radio activity being regulated.

Too many self-enobling amateurs wish to wrap themselves in the
finery of some kind of "patriotism" or "good works" and say they
do their hobby activity "for the public good."

AMATEUR radio is, de facto, a hobby, a recreational activity
involving radio transmission, done without pecuniary interest.

There should be NOTHING WRONG with having a fun hobby just
to have a hobby. One hundred seventy thousand members of the
AMA use a number of 72 MHz frequencies for model radio control.
That's purely a recreational activity. Not one whit of "public
service" about it, no dreaming about being a "service to the nation"
by using those allocated, authorized radio frequencies.

Anyone thinking that amateur radio is "primarily about public
service" is deluding themselves and/or living in a fantasyland of
daydreams. Amateur radio is a hobby. It was never anything
else and it may never be anything else. Why should it be more
than a hobby?

I've never needed a "license" to do jury duty, yet I've done it four
times. I've never needed a "license" to be a court witness yet
I've done that once. I've never needed a "license" to contribute to
a charity or be a hospital volunteer or anything else to do REAL
public/civic service. Anyone physically capable can do all of those
things without any "license" or "special authorization/allocation"
by some "authority."

The five volumes of regulations on Title 47 C.F.R. concern normal
operation of all the US civil radio services, its operators, and the
structure and activities of the FCC. The authorization/allocation of
ALL services is specifically stated therein. For those wishing to
get into REAL public service radio, that is mostly in Part 90 under
Public Safety Radio Services.

Part 97.1 "Definitions" does NOT specifically "authorize public
service" nor is it in any way some kind of Important Noble Medal
surrogate to wear/show-off/brag-about. 97.1 is basically old,
standard political boilerplate CHAFF, words to use as political
radar screening (a time-honored American law tradition even if
the names of it vary) to INFER a raison d'etre for the radio service.

Political chaff is very important in lawmaking. It carries with it a
fantastic amount of emotional baggage...but all that baggage is
essential to the creation of whatever the law is defining. A
particular activity being legislated cannot readily exist without all
that baggage. That kind of baggage gets politicians elected and
it lets those politicians enact legislation that is so "important"
to some of the citizenry.

While all the radio amateurs - and especiall the league - were busy
thumping their gorilla chests to beats of self-importance rhythm,
the AMA quietly lobbied for, and got a number of R/C frequencies.
Not for any national "public service" to "do good works" or anything
else except make several thousand model hobbyists happy. Nothing
in there about "pioneering flight" or anything else pretentious, just for
a recreational hobby, to have fun, to enjoy themselves.

The membership of the AMA is approximately equal to the member-
ship of the ARRL...170 thousand each. Isn't that curious? :-)

The AMA (Academy of Model Aeronautics) doesn't constantly
pretend to be anything else but a hobby membership organization,
affiliated internationally with other model hobby organizations. ARRL
on the other hand is terribly self-pretentious with a constant PR of
self-importance, "radio pioneering" and general self-grandeur.

Amateur radio transmissions fall under the federal laws concerning
United States civil radio. Such are given specific regulations by
the FCC. That isn't enoblement "to do the public good," it is merely
a separation of the various radio activities for regulatory purposes.

Trying to draw "conclusions, authorizations" from the first part of
Part 97 - for any reason - is like saying all politicians' statements
are "true." The definitions of 97.1 are just general statements,
political chaff (or any other spin-equivalent name you want) of the
old style to justify the existance of the radio activity in the political
arena.

LHA

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Dee D. Flint" wrote:
"Dwight Stewart" wrote:
To do the types of public service
we're authorized to do (MARS,
RACES, and so on), authorization
is required.

Sec. 97.407 (snip)


That is an authorization to operate
on those frequencies and an
authorization to operate the station
not an authorization to do public
service. (snip)


"That is authorization to operate on those frequencies" to do what, Dee?
The only answer is "public service" in this context. When it comes to
Amateur Radio, we perform our public service using the Amateur Radio
frequencies. And the FCC is the governing agency that says what is
authorized on those frequencies (not everything is - your license is not a
blank check to do what you want with the Amateur frequencies). For
example,
when it comes to the walk-a-thon you mentioned, the FCC has set rules on
what is and isn't authorized in that situation. The same with your power
blackout situation. And the same with ARES. In other words, you are only
allowed to use your radio in situations authorized, and in the manner
authorized. One situation authorized is public service.


(snip) That does not change the fact
that there is no mandate to do so.


Again, the words mandate and authorization are synonymous.


There is no authorization from the FCC required to do public service. We
have never needed government authorization to do public service. That the
FCC has simply formally recognized the value of amateur's public service
efforts does not constitute authorization to do public service. I've read
Part 97 beginning to end. All it authorizes is the use of specific
frequencies for specific license classes. It mandates meeting safety and
signal requirements and operational limits. The only words relating to
public service are simply those recognizing the fact of our value in public
service and encouraging us to continue.

You have just demonstrated how little you know about ARES and RACES.

RACES isn't allowed to function (except for limited practice sessions)
unless specifically activated and called to action by the government. The
FCC isn't even granting any more RACES station authorizations. They really
are not a public service group but instead are a volunteer civilian
auxiliary to the government. Thus RACES cannot do anything other than
follow the specific orders of the government when specifically activated.
They cannot do walk-a-thons or any other volunteer work or public service
work.

On the other hand, ARES is totally independent of the government and is
strictly an organization set up by and run by hams. The hams themselves
decide if, when and where they will do public service. ARES is not even
mentioned in the FCC rules. They can do any public service they want to so
long as they do not violate the FCC rules. The FCC has nothing whatsoever
to do with ARES.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE