Dave Heil wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:


There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you
learn about firmware.

I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem.
Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^)


Careful, Mike. Leonard is an electrical engineer and a proud
electronics professional.

Oh, I'm certain I'll get the old chops busted. I'm firmly convinced of
that!!

- Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem.


Something electro-existentialist about that, Mike.

Reminds me of a Lily Tomlin joke where she describes going to the store and
buying a wastepaper basket. At the checkout counter the cashier put the
wastepaper basket in a paper bag. Once she got it home, Lily took the
wastepaper basket out of the paper bag, folded up the paper bag, and put the
paper bag into the wastepaper basket.


Yeah, I though of that after I reread the post. Cool!!

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Dave Heil wrote:

There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you
learn about firmware.

I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem.

Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^)

Mike, "firmware" is programming instructions that are quite
permanent, almost never alterable by a user.

An example of "firmware" is a mask-programmed ROM. Not the
erasable type such as in a 2716 EPROM. With the advent of
FLASH memory the extra cost of masking for a mask-programmed
ROM has fallen out of favor over the last decade. Once made, a
mask-programmed ROM cannot be altered.

Another example of "firmware" is the PLD or Programmable Logic
Devices. Those are literally "blown" using on-chip "fuses" (links)
which are vaporized by the programmer. Once done, the PLD can
not be altered, thus it is not "upgradeable."

There are EPROMs available which have NO UV-erase window.
That cuts the cost of the package by a cent or two. Those are
production-erased before programming, then programmed to the
customer's request data by a multiple-unit programmer. Definitely
FIRM ware since a user would have to open the IC package to
erase the ROM and reprogram it.

All microprocessors have "firmware" in them in the form of the
Instruction Set decode-and-execute part of the chip. Those form
the entire instruction set of the microprocessor and cannot be
changed...hence the label of "firm."

A rare form of "firmware" is the hard-wired logic arrangment of ICs,
particularly with "state machines." That can only be "upgraded"
with actual physical wire changes on the board. The 1979 Apple ][
Disk Controller card was mostly a state machine designed by
Steve Wozniak himself. In early minicomputers the instruction set
decoder was a combination of state machine and hard-wired logic
chips; that evolved into ROM and then became part of the micro-
processor chip structure.

"Software" is instructions which can be altered by a user. Every
program for a PC or MAC is a "software." The instructions or
program are stored locally on a disk ("hard" or "floppy") and may be
accessed at any time by the PC's disk operating system. Early
software was loaded by paper tape, then magnetic tape, then by
floppy, then by hard disk, finally by CD-ROM.

A CD-ROM is not labelled either "firm" or "soft" since it contains
software which is not easily altered by the user...but parts of each
one can be rewritten if the content does not fill the CD. Software on
so-called "protected" media can be defeated but that takes a
modification of the CD writer program and probably some physical
changes in the CD drive itself.

The electronics industry has pretty well defined what is "firmware"
and what is "software" over the last three decades. Lately (in the
last half-dozen years) the appearance of the useable/programmable
microcontroller such as Microchip's "PIC" series has allowed a
re-programming of the stored program in the PIC's FLASH memory.
This is because Microchip's design (and other microcontrollers)
usually allow an extra package pin and internal registers/instruction-
set for such reprogramming. That isn't always the case with mass-
purchase special microcontrollers which may have the reprogramming
feature inaccessible to the user. Examples of that are various low-
cost appliances such as lawn sprinkler controllers or automatic coffee
makers. On those, the only thing alterable is some settings of
operation such as time. Settings sometimes go into FLASH memory
but the user cannot necessarily alter the main instruction program
set into the microcontroller.

Industry is going away from the absolute labels of "firmware" with
the new IC technologies. A microcontroller's program is simply called
"a program" if it can be loaded over the existing program or otherwise
changed by the user. Program content is still called "software"
because that has become normal in the wider group of computer and
consumer electronics users. Such software comes on CD-ROM,
floppy disks, but sometimes (for hobbyists) as "source code" for a
microcontroller's development program which can also load the
program into the micro. "Source code" is the human-readable
instructions of the program and the development program translates
that into microcontroller machine code for programming.

Anything that is "firm" in ware is not readily alterable by the user.
Anything that is "soft" in ware is readily alterable by the user.

If a program or data is downloadable over a modem, it does so in
software form.

You can call anything you want by whatever name you want but
it won't necessarily be understood by a distributor or parts seller.
There's several millions of folks involved in the worldwide electronics
industry (which includes radio) so, if you want some "firmware" that
can be downloaded over a modem, you'd best be VERY specific
in describing it.

You can call a spade a hoe, but be prepared to talk to the NAACP.

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Dave Heil wrote:

There's plenty new, Leonard. You may start your education after you
learn about firmware.

I just downloaded new firmware for my cable modem, over my cable modem.

Guess I'll have to use UPS next time. 8^)

Mike, "firmware" is programming instructions that are quite
permanent, almost never alterable by a user.

Leonard, I can't alter the firmware upgrades. I can only replace the
existing download with the new one.

An example of "firmware" is a mask-programmed ROM. Not the
erasable type such as in a 2716 EPROM. With the advent of
FLASH memory the extra cost of masking for a mask-programmed
ROM has fallen out of favor over the last decade. Once made, a
mask-programmed ROM cannot be altered.

I'm the user. I can't alter the program at all. I can, however,
replace the program with an updated one.

Another example of "firmware" is the PLD or Programmable Logic
Devices. Those are literally "blown" using on-chip "fuses" (links)
which are vaporized by the programmer. Once done, the PLD can
not be altered, thus it is not "upgradeable."

I'll bet that's what Ten-Tec has done! Those characters have used a PLD
and simply put the serial port on the back of the Orion just for show.
Users download the firmware upgrade, attach a serial cable and only
think they are loading the newest version into the transceiver. Yep,
that's probably what happened.

There are EPROMs available which have NO UV-erase window.
That cuts the cost of the package by a cent or two. Those are
production-erased before programming, then programmed to the
customer's request data by a multiple-unit programmer. Definitely
FIRM ware since a user would have to open the IC package to
erase the ROM and reprogram it.

All microprocessors have "firmware" in them in the form of the
Instruction Set decode-and-execute part of the chip. Those form
the entire instruction set of the microprocessor and cannot be
changed...hence the label of "firm."

A rare form of "firmware" is the hard-wired logic arrangment of ICs,
particularly with "state machines." That can only be "upgraded"
with actual physical wire changes on the board. The 1979 Apple ][
Disk Controller card was mostly a state machine designed by
Steve Wozniak himself. In early minicomputers the instruction set
decoder was a combination of state machine and hard-wired logic
chips; that evolved into ROM and then became part of the micro-
processor chip structure.

"Software" is instructions which can be altered by a user.

Users can't alter the Orion's instructions. They can use them or not.
They can load them into the transceiver or not.

Every
program for a PC or MAC is a "software."

The Orion is not a PC or a Mac.

The instructions or
program are stored locally on a disk ("hard" or "floppy") and may be
accessed at any time by the PC's disk operating system. Early
software was loaded by paper tape, then magnetic tape, then by
floppy, then by hard disk, finally by CD-ROM.

The Orion has no hard drive, no floppy disks, no paper or magnetic tape
and no CD-ROM drive.

A CD-ROM is not labelled either "firm" or "soft" since it contains
software which is not easily altered by the user...but parts of each
one can be rewritten if the content does not fill the CD. Software on
so-called "protected" media can be defeated but that takes a
modification of the CD writer program and probably some physical
changes in the CD drive itself.

Nope. I checked. There's no CD-ROM drive on the Orion.

The electronics industry has pretty well defined what is "firmware"
and what is "software" over the last three decades. Lately (in the
last half-dozen years) the appearance of the useable/programmable
microcontroller such as Microchip's "PIC" series has allowed a
re-programming of the stored program in the PIC's FLASH memory.
This is because Microchip's design (and other microcontrollers)
usually allow an extra package pin and internal registers/instruction-
set for such reprogramming. That isn't always the case with mass-
purchase special microcontrollers which may have the reprogramming
feature inaccessible to the user. Examples of that are various low-
cost appliances such as lawn sprinkler controllers or automatic coffee
makers. On those, the only thing alterable is some settings of
operation such as time. Settings sometimes go into FLASH memory
but the user cannot necessarily alter the main instruction program
set into the microcontroller.

I'm the user. I can't alter the program. I provided you with a link to
an accurate definition and one to Ten-Tec's site, the one with the big
blue letters reading "Firmware Upgrades".

Industry is going away from the absolute labels of "firmware" with
the new IC technologies. A microcontroller's program is simply called
"a program" if it can be loaded over the existing program or otherwise
changed by the user. Program content is still called "software"
because that has become normal in the wider group of computer and
consumer electronics users. Such software comes on CD-ROM,
floppy disks, but sometimes (for hobbyists) as "source code" for a
microcontroller's development program which can also load the
program into the micro. "Source code" is the human-readable
instructions of the program and the development program translates
that into microcontroller machine code for programming.

Industry is going away from labels like "firmware"? Ten-Tec is an
industry. Did you visit the site yet?

Anything that is "firm" in ware is not readily alterable by the user.
Anything that is "soft" in ware is readily alterable by the user.

I can't alter the program, Leonard. It must be firmware.

If a program or data is downloadable over a modem, it does so in
software form.

You'd better contact Ten-Tec and straighten those guys out!

You can call anything you want by whatever name you want but
it won't necessarily be understood by a distributor or parts seller.
There's several millions of folks involved in the worldwide electronics
industry (which includes radio) so, if you want some "firmware" that
can be downloaded over a modem, you'd best be VERY specific
in describing it.

Uhhhhh, I didn't have to describe the firmware upgrades for Ten-Tec,
Len.
They described them for me. They produce them. I get to use them (but
not alter them). They refer to them as firmware upgrades. I'm quite
content with that term. So the Ten-Tec folks are happy. I'm happy.
But, oh yes, you're not happy. Yet you have nothing to do with Ten-Tec
and don't own an Orion.

You can call a spade a hoe, but be prepared to talk to the NAACP.

I've never asked Ten-Tec about garden tools but both they and I are
quite amenable to discussing the firmware upgrades which they produce.
You are as uninvolved with this one as you are in amateur radio.

Dave K8MN