"Dan Mattingly N0FQN" wrote in message ...
The issue is it was not invented today. So, what's your point??? You could
say this statement about any subject. It's too, broad in texture. Narrow
your point or I won't give you a grade.

That's what I find amusing about these threads.

People want to play "what if" but they aren't describing the situation
where ham radio would be invented today. The way I see it, the real
reason they can imagine amateur radio is because it's been around
all these years. Form follows function. The proponents of this
thread can't really explain why amateur radio would arise today,
without the bias of the past, so really they can't define what
would arise if it did.

CB is a good example of something coming later. "Radio for
everyone" or something like that. Came about around sixty years
after people started playing with radio out of the laboratory.
They could only offer up a small slice of the spectrum, and that
by taking from amateur radio. And while technology did limit
things, realistically the only model was that of amateur radio,
ie direct between two stations. Now admittedly early proponents
of CB often came from amateur radio, but practically as soon
as the service was created, it was referred to in hobby terms.
Not "this is a radio service that you can use to help your hobby"
but a hobby in itself. Look in Popular Electronics from the time,
and you'll see articles by Don Stoner and Tom Kneital to this effect.
(And warnings from the FCC that it ain't a hobby band.) If amateur
radio had not existed, what would CB have been like?

It recently occurred to me that far more people are using radio
for communication than at any point in the past. But instead
of radio, they are seen as telephone technology. Yes, cellphones.
It makes good use of the spectrum, it is something relatively familiar,
and realistically, people are more interested in reliable communication
with those they know.

On one hand, we have people lamenting that amateur radio can't compete
with computers and cellphones today. Yet, then others turn around
and wonder what amateur radio would be like if started today. I can't
really conceive of amateur radio starting today, because I'm not sure what
the purpose would be. And once you start with that premise, free of
knowing that amateur radio has existed all these years, only then can
one begin to imagine what (if anything) would be available to such
a hobby if started today.

I also note that the topic wasn't about "what would the world be
like without amateur radio" but "what would amateur radio be like
if started today". So yes, one can look back and imagine a history
of radio without amateurs, but the two are indeed linked. Take out
that history from amateur radio, and I really don't see it starting
up today.

Michael VE2BVW

"Michael Black" wrote

| Take out that history from amateur radio, and I really
| don't see it starting up today.

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types. That our service continues to exist today is a
miracle, attributable mainly to the efforts of RAC, ARRL, DARC, JARL,
IARU, RAE, RSGB, and all the other national societies who so far have
convinced the regulators to allow us to continue.

The notion of a "start up" amateur radio service or any personal radio
service with such broad gifts of spectrum and freedom to experiment as
we enjoy wouldn't gain any traction at all in todays technological
environment.

73, de Hans, K0HB

KØHB wrote:

"Michael Black" wrote

| Take out that history from amateur radio, and I really
| don't see it starting up today.

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types. That our service continues to exist today is a
miracle, attributable mainly to the efforts of RAC, ARRL, DARC, JARL,
IARU, RAE, RSGB, and all the other national societies who so far have
convinced the regulators to allow us to continue.

The notion of a "start up" amateur radio service or any personal radio
service with such broad gifts of spectrum and freedom to experiment as
we enjoy wouldn't gain any traction at all in todays technological
environment.


In one of the first posts, I cam up with the spectrum we would recieve.

Me in an earlier life:

Aww, don't make me define too much Jim! Okay, lets say that in the
rebirth, fueled by concerns for homeland security, that a a loosely
organized group of non-professional communication savvy people that
might be able to respond to disasters or the like is made.

Assume that it is decided that this group should have some technical
abilities, so that if need be, they might stand a chance of getting a
station operational under adverse conditions.

The philosophy is that these people would pursue the service as a
hobby, working for enjoyment while honing operational skills.

Let's say that amateurs are allocated some frequencies. I'll assume
that the bands I not will be similar in width to what we have now:

2 meters
10 meters
20 meters
40 meters - or nearby, away from broadcasting frequencies
80 meters

The various frequencies are chosen to take advantage of propagation
characteristics.

No UHF or above, no 160 meters.

Seems like a reasonable starting point to me.

Obviously things would be different, there would be plenty of
differences, and the idea was that there might be some discussion of that.

So you and Mr Black just say there wouldn't be any such thing. Thanks
for the input! ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote

|
| So you and Mr Black just say there wouldn't be any such thing.
|

That's correct. If amateur radio did not already exist there is Zero
point Zero Zero Zero (and I'm rounding upwards) probability that it
would be created today.

73, de Hans, K0HB

In article k.net, "KØHB"
writes:

"Michael Black" wrote

| Take out that history from amateur radio, and I really
| don't see it starting up today.

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types.

"Technically oriented," not 'orientated.'

They were using information on radio hardware theory that was
being refined and detailed by commercial, government, and
military radio users. Principally that was in the period from
1900 to the mid-1930s. Lots and lots of non-amateurs were very
busy trying to get a slice of what appeared to be a lucrative
new technology. A similar happening started in personal
computing in the late 1970s, many amateurs involved, until the
USERS and the makers got going to make the personal computer
a tool for everyday life and work.

For a more widened view of early radio development, the text
history by Hugh G. J. Aitken, "The Continuous Wave, Technology
and American Radio 1900-1932," Princeton University Press 1985
is recommended as a source. The first "driver" of radio
technology was the maritime world. Maritime radio was
considered indespensible for ocean vessels, giving them something
they had never had before - communications beyond the horizon.

Some amateurs, restricted to sources from a CT publisher, will
insist that amateurs "discovered short waves" 83 years ago. Not
quite since the Marconi Company first noted the long leaps in
"short wave" paths 84 years ago. Some 82 years ago a
commercial communications carrier was already trying out HF on
several wavelengths ("down" to 30 meters) to improve daylight
radio transmission paths. Commercial concerns, especially
broadcasting, were the drivers of radio technology after WW1..
Those who do 24/7 radio communications are more likely to notice
effects than amateurs limited to a few hours each day.

The commercial-industrial-governmental-military users of radio
were already migrating upwards iin frequency from the late 1930s
and especially so after WW2. However, the "tinkerers,
experimenters, and technically" oriented folks have ALWAYS
existed and grew more numerous after the "military surplus"
years just following WW2. That is most notable in NON-ham
electronics activities such as robotics, personal computing,
music systems, security-alarm-control applications. Radio
control of model aircraft and other vehicles is a big market (AMA
has as many or slightly more members than ARRL). AMA got
a large block of frequencies at 72 MHz just for R/C all by itself.

Despite the grousing, bitching, and whining of "experimenters"
unable to get the exact parts for copying a magazine article
project from Radio Shack, electronic parts remain on the market,
as numerous as they were in 1947 or 1967 (actually more so)
but are not solely concerned with the so-called alalog radio field.
Even the giant and growing Fry's Electronics chain carries a
whole aisle of packaged components from capacitors to circuit
board blanks. Modern day electronics "experimenters" have gone
well beyond radio in the scope of their fun.

While some hams look with distaste, disgust, and some with
pejorations of evil upon "CB," the 27 MHz kind of personal
communications opened in 1958 (that's a mere 46 years ago)
WITHOUT the amateurs and expanded enormously when the
offshore designs and manufacturings took off.

Offshore design and manufacture facilities have greatly aided
the availability of everything from parts to finished systems at
relatively low cost. That allowed the hobbyists to pursue all kinds
of areas of electronics design and construction in home workshops.

Had amateur radio remained cut off after WW1, there would have
been NO ARRL to lobby or do anything. The club clocks would
have been reset to the competition for national memberships of
the pre-1914 times...telegrams and telegraphy messages would
still have gotten through in the commercial-government world of
radio. Broadcasting would have expanded enormously after 1920
despite amateur activities along with receiver development and all
the peripheral electronics around "radio" (everything from wireless
mikes to radio-coupled phonographs and eventually to stereo-
binaural sound and magnetic recording for "hi-fi" sound). HF would
still have been a pre-WW2 hotbed of commercial-government
communicatios carriers, everything from 4 voice channel width
SSB to single-channel RTTY. By 1938 some police departments
had been "experimenting" (trying out) mobile FM, with success.
Once rocketry had become relatively practical after WW2, the
commercial satellite communications "birds" would have existed
(Telstar was a US telephone company project). Now the
equatorial geosynchrous orbit is FILLED with comm sats (about
every 3 degrees or so) and the "long-distance" radio communications
goes over them rather than old HF (if not over fiber-optics cables
or microwave radio relay having even more bandwidth).

That our service continues to exist today is a
miracle, attributable mainly to the efforts of RAC, ARRL, DARC, JARL,
IARU, RAE, RSGB, and all the other national societies who so far have
convinced the regulators to allow us to continue.

Ah, but in this hypothetical alternate reality, there would be NO such
organizations. They MIGHT form again but there is NOTHING to
guarantee that they would be even close to doing what they do now.
Evolution of amateur radio organizations happened just as it did to
every other radio service...some would survive, others would not.

The "selling job" of these FUTURE clubs (not really "societies")
would be difficult since they would have NO "track record" to fall back
on, no mythical claims of being necessary in any emergency, or any
of the legends they loved to trot out. It would be back to Square One
for most of them except for the first one, the Radio Club of America.

Remember that the ARRL began as a local CT radio club with the
ideal of serving as a freebie message-forwarding service. In today's
world it would be a Hacker club "hacking" on Western Union's and
other telegram suppliers' high telegram fees. All the high-sounding
PR BS of today hadn't happened and all the ARRL would have to
show for itself in this new alternate reality is some nebulous,
rationalized message relay Hacking. Not a good thing to expand
upon and not something to convince regulators that they should
allocate bands and things to amateurs. That could be done in a
different way.

But, without the "tradition" and "glory of service" (or whatever) that
has been the propaganda tool of the membership organizations'
spoon-feeding of What To Do, What To Say, How To Act, the
present-day orgs couldn't do it the same way they have for years.

In this alternate reality, the word "ham" might never have caught on.
It was a pejorative given by professional telegraphers to amateurs
originally (from ARRL's own etymological definition). "Amateur" is not
a bad thing since there are many and varied amateur activities of all
kinds, especially in sports. "Ham" as a prefix has never been a good
label, especially in show business.

My speculation is that HF would definitely be open for allocation for
recreational activity. The commercial and government users of HF have
vacated much of it, use it primarily for time-frequency standards,
broadcasting, much less communications than two to three decades
ago. If R/C models can get a block of lower VHF frequencies, I'm sure
that amateur radio could get some HF bands for fun and games.

The notion of a "start up" amateur radio service or any personal radio
service with such broad gifts of spectrum and freedom to experiment as
we enjoy wouldn't gain any traction at all in todays technological
environment.

A quaint notion based almost entirely on the past present reality
happenings...not to mention several boatloads of mythology and
legend PR that is more puffery than substance. Sorry, not bought.

There is absolutely NOTHING "wrong" with getting a block of
frequencies just for recreation. R/C did it and modelers have NEVER
claimed anything close to aiding homeland security or being of some
vital and important aid in times of emergency.

27 MHz CB is already 46 years old. FRS and GMRS exists today
as do almost innumerable "cordless" and "wireless" low power RF
communications devices of many purposes, from VHF on up to C
Band (5 GHz) in microwaves. I say there would definitely be a lot of
personal communications "radios" in this alternate reality, regardless
of amateur claims (in this universe) of pioneering them.

But, in this alternate reality, there might be some bitter and
prolonged fighting in urban and semi-urban residential areas as
amateur radio folks tried to put up large, ugly wire and tubing
structures (beautiful to them, maybe, but a decided eyesore to
non-radio neighbors).

Amateur radio, if it came to be, would have a decidedly different
scope of activities in this alternate universe. It would BEGIN to
evolve, probably to something else, since there was no "tradition"
to "preserve" nor any set of 1930s Standards and Practices to
uphold 7 decades later. Radio amateurism would begin ANEW.

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types.

"Technically oriented," not 'orientated.'

"Sycophant", not "syncophant" (used thrice over several days).
"Belligerent", not "beligerant".
"Atilla", not "Atila".

The rest of Doctor Anderson's lecture has been omitted since there is an
ARRL (once a local Hartford, Connecticut club but no longer) and there
is an amateur radio.

Dave K8MN

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...

There is absolutely NOTHING "wrong" with getting a block of
frequencies just for recreation. R/C did it and modelers have NEVER
claimed anything close to aiding homeland security or being of some
vital and important aid in times of emergency.

Because, your Scumminess, that's NOT what they are trying to
accomplish, nor are they required by regulation to be able to assist
with.

Amateur radio, if it came to be, would have a decidedly different
scope of activities in this alternate universe. It would BEGIN to
evolve, probably to something else, since there was no "tradition"
to "preserve" nor any set of 1930s Standards and Practices to
uphold 7 decades later. Radio amateurism would begin ANEW.

And it would STILL not include a lying putz like you...even if
you said "pretty please".

Steve, K4YZ

In article k.net, "KØHB"
writes:

"Michael Black" wrote

| Take out that history from amateur radio, and I really
| don't see it starting up today.

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types.

Also traffic handlers, ragchewers, DX and emergency types.
Skilled operators, IOW.

The early hams had to be technically oriented, because the
equipment of the time demanded it. A ham who knew what s/he
was doing could work the world with arelatively simple station,
while a ham who didn't couldn't hear a station in the next
town.

Of course, much of the development of electronics since those
times has been aimed at reducing and eliminating the need for
"users" to have technical knowledge and/or operator skill.
Amateur radio is one of the few places where such things are
considered important. Indeed, the whole concept of "radio
operator" has largely disappeared outside amateur radio.

That our service continues to exist today is a
miracle, attributable mainly to the efforts of RAC, ARRL, DARC, JARL,
IARU, RAE, RSGB, and all the other national societies who so far have
convinced the regulators to allow us to continue.

And the hams who make up those organizations.

The notion of a "start up" amateur radio service or any personal radio
service with such broad gifts of spectrum and freedom to experiment as
we enjoy wouldn't gain any traction at all in todays technological
environment.

Exactly. What might be created would resemble MURS or FRS, with lots of
restrictions and requirements, and very little of the freedom we take for
granted.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
In article k.net, "KØHB"
writes:


"Michael Black" wrote

| Take out that history from amateur radio, and I really
| don't see it starting up today.

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types.


Also traffic handlers, ragchewers, DX and emergency types.
Skilled operators, IOW.

The early hams had to be technically oriented, because the
equipment of the time demanded it. A ham who knew what s/he
was doing could work the world with arelatively simple station,
while a ham who didn't couldn't hear a station in the next
town.

Of course, much of the development of electronics since those
times has been aimed at reducing and eliminating the need for
"users" to have technical knowledge and/or operator skill.
Amateur radio is one of the few places where such things are
considered important. Indeed, the whole concept of "radio
operator" has largely disappeared outside amateur radio.

Careful Jim!! One of the arguments against Morse testing is that
outside groups do not use Morse code any more, so it isn't needed. Since
outside groups don't use "trained radio operators" any more, this is one
more reason not to test for anything.

Carl will be very upset you put *this* idea in people minds too! ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:
In article k.net, "KØHB"
writes:


"Michael Black" wrote

| Take out that history from amateur radio, and I really
| don't see it starting up today.

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types.


Also traffic handlers, ragchewers, DX and emergency types.
Skilled operators, IOW.

The early hams had to be technically oriented, because the
equipment of the time demanded it. A ham who knew what s/he
was doing could work the world with arelatively simple station,
while a ham who didn't couldn't hear a station in the next
town.

Of course, much of the development of electronics since those
times has been aimed at reducing and eliminating the need for
"users" to have technical knowledge and/or operator skill.
Amateur radio is one of the few places where such things are
considered important. Indeed, the whole concept of "radio
operator" has largely disappeared outside amateur radio.

Careful Jim!! One of the arguments against Morse testing is that
outside groups do not use Morse code any more, so it isn't needed. Since
outside groups don't use "trained radio operators" any more, this is one
more reason not to test for anything.

We've been going in that direction for almost 30 years, Mike.

The issue isn't Morse Code testing or question pools or VEs vs. FCC examiners.
It's much bigger than that.

Remember the old original Rod Serling "Twilight Zone" TV show? One of the most
memorable episodes was called "The Obsolete Man". Starred Burgess Meredith and
Dennis Weaver in a future totalitarian state where most books were banned.
Meredith's character was a librarian - and was declared "obsolete" by The
State,
because without most books there was no need for libraries or librarians.

From the beginnings of radio, the concept of "radio operator" has been part of
our thinking. To us, that concept means "a person trained and skilled in the
operation and adjustment of radio equipment". An honorable profession
going back to at least Jack Binns if not before.

Remember when ham rigs required skill and knowledge to use? A piece of gear
that the average person couldn't get a peep out of becomes a worldwide
communications system in the right hands. Some folks don't like that.

And it's exactly the concept of "radio operator" that some want to eliminate,
I think.

In the case of maritime radio, it was for economic reasons - the beancounters
said it was cheaper to buy satellite equipment than to pay ROs. Coast Guard
could replace their coast stations and ops with automated stuff. The military
and airlines did it years ago for similar reasons. Broadcasters hopped on the
wagon several years ago too. In fact it goes all the way back to Western Union
and the RRs getting rid of the wire telegraph.

The idea they're selling is simply that radio isn't supposed to require radio
operators, just as the telephone network and the internet don't require them.
That's why they avoid the word "radio" and instead say "cellphone" or "wireless
network" or "broadband" or "satellite" - *anything* but "radio". The "modern"
equipment is supposed to be so automatic that there's no need for operators, or
their skills.

Of course they can't just come out and say that, nor eliminate the licenses.
I don't see how arguing the point with FCC can accomplish anything but get them
mad at us, which we don't need.

I think the some folks are trying to slowly but surely declare radio operators
"obsolete" - along with their licenses.

All that's left is us hams to keep the concept alive.

Carl will be very upset you put *this* idea in people minds too! ;^)

Carl has expressed his disdain for the concept of skilled radio operators here.
Look up some of his posts under his old call (WA6VSE) and phrases such as
"electronic paintball wars" "stomp into the dust" "wetware modem" "emulate a
modem" "better modes and modulations"....

73 de Jim, N2EY