Hi all, on this thread,

"N2EY" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
Jim,
I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.
Only a few?
Fun fact:
When I got my Extra there were fewer than 10,000 others (other Extras,
that
is). Now there are over 104,000 others. Doesn't bother me a bit. The more
the
merrier - IF they pass the tests.

You all are on the wrong numbers, as you might recall, that the airwaves
wont stop ath the borders of your country. There are already hundrets of
thousands HAMS worldwide in "Your Sandbox". Dont you think that beeing a ham
requires only some simple testing? It requires GLOBAL THINKING of open
minded persons. All what I could read here on this matter is everything else
than OPEN MINDED and not a bit of GLOBAL HAM THINKING.

So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the test
that other Extra's take.

Exactly.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.

As I said before - all who pass the required tests are welcome in *our*
sandbox.

What is "your sandbox"? Where can I make a test to access 40m above 7.100 ?
Where can I do the test for usage of 146 - 148 MHz? This is your sandbox, I
assume. But all the other Ham frequencies are also the sandbox and
playground of all the hams in the world. Their numbers are a lot more than
just 100k.


Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

Good question.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Thats the usual procedure in most countries of the globe to make a one shot
exam.

Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

That's the real problem - particularly for the Tech-to-General upgrade.

Effective after Aug. 15, 2003, this kind of upgrade from non-HF to HF- Hams
has occured after the WRC03 throughout the world. This has been of greatest
benefit to ham radio after its developement. Now as there is young blood on
the bands, it will keep the ITU from knibbling on the bands.

73 de OE8SOQ
Helmut


73 de Jim, N2EY

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

That's awfully big of you, Carl.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

Ah, but it IS his sandbox. It is also MY sandbox and, through a
lowering of the qualifications for obtaining an Extra class license, it
happens to be your sandbox.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why should anyone obtain an upgrade without testing?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

How so and to whom?

The FCC wants to simplify -

Really?

the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

So a "gimme" for tens of thousands is what makes sense to you, huh?
You've often written of morse tests as hoops and hazing, preventing
"otherwise qualified" people from entering amateur radio. You vowed that
you'd never support a watering down of written tests. Now you are
supporting a freebie for these thousands of "otherwise qualified"
individuals. "Otherwise qualified" must mean those people who can't
pass a required examination.

YM will, of course V ...

I don't know about mileage, but my views certainly differs from yours.

Dave K8MN

"Helmut" wrote in message ...
Hi all, on this thread,

Hello!

"N2EY" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
Jim,
I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.
Only a few?
Fun fact:
When I got my Extra there were fewer than 10,000 others (other Extras,
that
is). Now there are over 104,000 others. Doesn't bother me a bit. The more
the
merrier - IF they pass the tests.

You all are on the wrong numbers, as you might recall, that the airwaves
wont stop ath the borders of your country.

The "others" I wrote of above are other US Amateur Extra licensees.

There are already hundrets of
thousands HAMS worldwide in "Your Sandbox".

It's not my sandbox. It's our sandbox. And all who can pass the
required
tests are welcome! Not just "a few".

Dont you think that beeing a ham
requires only some simple testing?

Yes! The tests for a US license are very simple, yet some people want
them
to be even more simple. I don't think that's a good idea.

It requires GLOBAL THINKING of open
minded persons. All what I could read here on this matter is everything else
than OPEN MINDED and not a bit of GLOBAL HAM THINKING.

Most of what is discussed here is amateur radio policy in the USA.
That's simply a result of it being US based and in English.

So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the test
that other Extra's take.

Exactly.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.

As I said before - all who pass the required tests are welcome in *our*
sandbox.

What is "your sandbox"?

I don't have one!

Where can I make a test to access 40m above 7.100 ?

Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

The reason hams in Regions 1 and 3 don't have 7.100-7.300 is that
their
governments wanted that spectrum for shortwave broacasting in 1938.
It's
not the fault of hams or governments in Region 2.

Where can I do the test for usage of 146 - 148 MHz?

Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

This is your sandbox, I
assume.

Not mine. Ours.

But all the other Ham frequencies are also the sandbox and
playground of all the hams in the world. Their numbers are a lot more than
just 100k.

And they're all welcome. But how many of them are actually using, say,
7.000 to 7.025?

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

Good question.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Thats the usual procedure in most countries of the globe to make a one shot
exam.


That's not the case in the USA. We have several classes of license,
with a very
easy and simple exam for the limited-privileges licenses and a more
advanced exam for the full-privileges license. By the standards of
most of the rest of
the world, the USA exams are very easy.

What is being discussed in this thread is a proposal that would give
more privileges to many with limited-privileges license *without* any
more tests.
I think that's a bad idea.

Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

That's the real problem - particularly for the Tech-to-General upgrade.

Effective after Aug. 15, 2003, this kind of upgrade from non-HF to HF- Hams
has occured after the WRC03 throughout the world.

Are you talking about the code test? We're talking about the *written*
tests.

This has been of greatest
benefit to ham radio after its developement. Now as there is young blood on
the bands, it will keep the ITU from knibbling on the bands.

How much difference has it really made?

How many countries have changed their rules?

How many new hams have gotten on the air since those changes?

How does the number of new hams since the changes compare to an equal
period of time before the changes?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Hi, Jim,

"N2EY" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
"Helmut" wrote in message
...
Hi all, on this thread,

Hello!

"N2EY" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
Jim,
I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.
Only a few?
Fun fact:
When I got my Extra there were fewer than 10,000 others (other Extras,
that
is). Now there are over 104,000 others. Doesn't bother me a bit. The
more
the
merrier - IF they pass the tests.

You all are on the wrong numbers, as you might recall, that the airwaves
wont stop ath the borders of your country.

The "others" I wrote of above are other US Amateur Extra licensees.

HF-Bands are not only for EXTRA licensed hams from the US, and the
expression "SANDBOX" means the whole spectrum accessible for radio amateurs
all over the world. In the process of restructuring after WRC03 zillion of
hams will be able to enter this spectrum. Most of them did not pass the "US
GOLD CARD EXTRA" tests. They are given full HF privileges by the
authorities. This will also occur in the United States in the near future.
Do you realy think, your authority will step back from their voting at
WRC03? Do you think they want to loose their face towards those other
countries they were partnering at the WRC03?

They all are your fellow hams. Your friends, buddies, pals, or fellas. Why
don't you try to do the same, as the rest of the worlds hams are doing to
their hamfriends, stepping up now into the heaven of ham radio? Welcome
them, elmer them, if you think they are not skilled enough, and give them
the feeling of beeing welcome in your part of the spectrum. Exept in the US
and a few other countries, you can tell the license class from the callsign.
From all the others around the globe you cannot tell, if they've got their
HF-privileges after the WRC without passing a test. What will your reaction
be? "Go home, this is MY PARTof the spectrum"? There will be poor
operational skills around for a while. Just recall YOUR first months of
HF-operation. No master ever fell out of the blue sky, they all had to take
their lesson and do her homework and practice.

Beeing a ham worldwide includes to be:
CONSIDERATE...never knowingly operates in such a way as to lessen the
pleasure of others.
LOYAL...offers loyalty, encouragement and support to other amateurs, local
clubs, and the American Radio Relay League, through which Amateur Radio in
the United States is represented nationally and internationally.

PROGRESSIVE...with knowledge abreast of science, a well-built and efficient
station and operation above reproach.

FRIENDLY...slow and patient operating when requested; friendly advice and
counsel to the beginner; kindly assistance, cooperation and consideration
for the interests of others. These are the hallmarks of the amateur spirit.

BALANCED...radio is an avocation, never interfering with duties owed to
family, job, school or community.

PATRIOTIC...station and skill always ready for service to country and
community.

--The original Amateur's Code was written by Paul M. Segal, W9EEA, in 1928.
Nowadays there has to be added: global thinking

Most of what is discussed here is amateur radio policy in the USA.

That's simply a result of it being US based and in English.


And concerning this newsgroup as to be US-based and written in english
language is not protecting you of beeing a ham. Act like, speak like and
write like it is to the honor of amateur radio.


So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the
test
that other Extra's take.

I've heard the same song across the bands after they dropped the CW-test to
5wpm. Did it help anything? Your authority ignored it. Do you think they did
change their habit to please 10 percent of the american hams?



Exactly.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.

As I said before - all who pass the required tests are welcome in
*our*
sandbox.

What is "your sandbox"?

I don't have one!

Where can I make a test to access 40m above 7.100 ?

Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

The reason hams in Regions 1 and 3 don't have 7.100-7.300 is that
their
governments wanted that spectrum for shortwave broacasting in 1938.
It's not the fault of hams or governments in Region 2.


You are right on this. It will get regulated after 2007 when the 40m
allocation will be 7000 - 7200 exclusive for all hams worldwide. This was
also concluded in Geneva.


Where can I do the test for usage of 146 - 148 MHz?

Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

This is your sandbox, I
assume.

Not mine. Ours.

But all the other Ham frequencies are also the sandbox and
playground of all the hams in the world. Their numbers are a lot more
than
just 100k.

And they're all welcome. But how many of them are actually using, say,
7.000 to 7.025?

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

Good question.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously
the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified
to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Thats the usual procedure in most countries of the globe to make a one
shot
exam.


That's not the case in the USA. We have several classes of license,
with a very easy and simple exam for the limited-privileges licenses and a
more
advanced exam for the full-privileges license. By the standards of
most of the rest of the world, the USA exams are very easy.

What is being discussed in this thread is a proposal that would give
more privileges to many with limited-privileges license *without* any
more tests. I think that's a bad idea.


Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

That's the real problem - particularly for the Tech-to-General
upgrade.

Effective after Aug. 15, 2003, this kind of upgrade from non-HF to HF-
Hams
has occured after the WRC03 throughout the world.

Are you talking about the code test? We're talking about the *written*
tests.

This has been of greatest
benefit to ham radio after its developement. Now as there is young blood
on
the bands, it will keep the ITU from knibbling on the bands.

How much difference has it really made?

How many countries have changed their rules?

How many new hams have gotten on the air since those changes?

How does the number of new hams since the changes compare to an equal
period of time before the changes?

Jim, it is not the difference in numbers, it is just the fact, that it
happend. Give yourself the cream upon the cake and think positive about the
new situation. Showing anger and agressiv language against those beeing a
"victim" of the restructuring process doesn't bring any good to the ham
family. Not in your country, and not around the world. And where we cannot
do anything against it, it's not worth to argue about it. It is NOT
negotiable.

Here in Europe, we even did'nt have the time to try negotiating. The
authorities of the various countries just signed the bill and thats it. Your
FCC should do the same. This would save you all here on this thread a lot of
nerves.


God bless, stay calm, and have a nice week

73 de OE8SOQ

Helmut

ps: meet me on echolink node # 107658 if you would like to talk.




73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements. Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

Technically he's right Jim. He isn't supporting any reduction in the
writtens. He's supporting not having to take a test *at all*. There is a
difference, you know!

No there isn't.

Eliminating something is the same as reducing it to zero. The free upgrades
simply reduce the testing required for the upgrade to zero. Still a reduction.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why?

The FCC wants to simplify -

Says who?

I recall that FCC **REJECTED** the ARRL proposal to free-upgrade Tech
Pluses
and Novices to General back in 1998-99. And even though ARRL proposed
keeping
the Advanced open, FCC rejected that too.

In fact it was *FCC's* idea to keep the Novice and Advanced as closed-off
license classes, rather than handing out free upgrades.

What has changed in the four years since then that now requires handing out
over 82,000 free passes to Extra, and over 322,000 free passes to General?


the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power limits.


And that part is a good idea! In fact, it's almost identical to what I
proposed
here more than 2 years ago. Except I'd require 5 wpm code...

But that doesn't explain the need for over 400,000 free upgrades.

Of course if the Novice is reopened with new HF privs, Tech Pluses should
get
those same privs. And if the code test isn't required for "NewNovices",
then
Techs should get those same HF privs.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net


I'll ask again for a link to those comments.

Please?


I think that when you scratch the surface of most people that support
reductions in the Morse code testing, you will find that they also
support reduction or elimination of the rest of the testing regimen.
There are exceptions, but they prove the rule IMO.

I disagree! I think many if not most anticodetest folks just want the code test
to go away. Frankly, I'm surprised that Carl has changed his tune so
completely.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

By golly, that's a lot more high level hams!

Bingo.

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and
the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes
take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Yup!

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Me too! I want to see if he can convince me of something I'd said I'd
never support!

I can see some possibilities:

- Free upgrading Techs would mean a lot more hams with HF, which is a big
arguing point against BPL

- Possible recruiting tool for ARRL ("look what we got you!")

- Less work for VECs (NCVEC is always complaining - see their comments.)

- (the big one): The ARRL proposal dumps Element 1 for all but Extra.
Supporting it gets Carl and NCI most of what they want in the codetest area.
And maybe the FCC will dump Element 1 for Extra too....

I'd really like to see the link. Looked around eham but can't find the comments
mentioned.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

That's awfully big of you, Carl.

I haven't heard Carl on the lowest 25 of 80, 40, 20 or 15. Have you, Dave?

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

Ah, but it IS his sandbox. It is also MY sandbox and, through a
lowering of the qualifications for obtaining an Extra class license, it
happens to be your sandbox.

It's *our* sandbox.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why should anyone obtain an upgrade without testing?

That's what I keep asking!

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

How so and to whom?

The FCC wants to simplify -

Really?

the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

So a "gimme" for tens of thousands is what makes sense to you, huh?
You've often written of morse tests as hoops and hazing, preventing
"otherwise qualified" people from entering amateur radio. You vowed that
you'd never support a watering down of written tests. Now you are
supporting a freebie for these thousands of "otherwise qualified"
individuals. "Otherwise qualified" must mean those people who can't
pass a required examination.

Required *WRITTEN* examination.

Note also that Carl has repeatedly said here that the current license structure
was just about right except for the code test and the need to beef up the Tech
written because it allows full power on "meat cooking frequencies" (great
catchphrase, btw). All of which made sense if you agree with the anticodetest
arguments. Now, for some reason, there's some sort of *need* to hand out lotsa
freebies. But no one will say why.

YM will, of course V ...

I don't know about mileage, but my views certainly differs from yours.

Having met W1RFI and chauffered him around Philly a few weeks back, I'd really
like to read his reasoning on the ARRL proposal. 'Specially if he won over
Carl. Heck, he might win me over!

73 de Jim, N2EY

Dave Heil wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


That's awfully big of you, Carl.


Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


Ah, but it IS his sandbox. It is also MY sandbox and, through a
lowering of the qualifications for obtaining an Extra class license, it
happens to be your sandbox.


Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?


Why should anyone obtain an upgrade without testing?


83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.


How so and to whom?


The FCC wants to simplify -


Really?


the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.


So a "gimme" for tens of thousands is what makes sense to you, huh?
You've often written of morse tests as hoops and hazing, preventing
"otherwise qualified" people from entering amateur radio.

The Morse code was keeping tens of thousands of otherwise *unqualified*
people out too!


You vowed that
you'd never support a watering down of written tests. Now you are
supporting a freebie for these thousands of "otherwise qualified"
individuals. "Otherwise qualified" must mean those people who can't
pass a required examination.

I'm "otherwise qualified" to be a neurosurgeon!


- Mike KB3EIA -

I think the ARRL is doing a super job of taking care of its own cash
cow. Ham Radio as we know it is changing in the interest of progress
with no considration for the hobby. I bet if everyone who subscribes
to QST was to cancel their subscriptions,in other words, BOY COTT the
ARRL, their trend of thought would take a sudden change of direction.
Who cares about manufactures who pay for glossy pages of advertisment
in QST. After all didn't we all used to make our own radios once.
It seems as though the reciepe is to dismantle the hobby of amateur
radio and ARRL is trying to hang on to what ever will keep them going
as money making tax free organization.
Ask your self, what has the ARRL ever done for you personally or for
anyone you know, I bet the answer is zero, nada.
I am glad that I have at least had the past 47 or so years of amateur
radio.
That is how I feel and I just want to voice my personal opinion even
though I am going to get bashed for it. Jim AF1Q


(N2EY) wrote in message . com...
"Helmut" wrote in message ...
Hi all, on this thread,

Hello!

"N2EY" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
Jim,
I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.
Only a few?
Fun fact:
When I got my Extra there were fewer than 10,000 others (other Extras,
that
is). Now there are over 104,000 others. Doesn't bother me a bit. The more
the
merrier - IF they pass the tests.

You all are on the wrong numbers, as you might recall, that the airwaves
wont stop ath the borders of your country.

The "others" I wrote of above are other US Amateur Extra licensees.

There are already hundrets of
thousands HAMS worldwide in "Your Sandbox".

It's not my sandbox. It's our sandbox. And all who can pass the
required
tests are welcome! Not just "a few".

Dont you think that beeing a ham
requires only some simple testing?

Yes! The tests for a US license are very simple, yet some people want
them
to be even more simple. I don't think that's a good idea.

It requires GLOBAL THINKING of open
minded persons. All what I could read here on this matter is everything else
than OPEN MINDED and not a bit of GLOBAL HAM THINKING.

Most of what is discussed here is amateur radio policy in the USA.
That's simply a result of it being US based and in English.

So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the test
that other Extra's take.

Exactly.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.

As I said before - all who pass the required tests are welcome in *our*
sandbox.

What is "your sandbox"?

I don't have one!

Where can I make a test to access 40m above 7.100 ?

Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

The reason hams in Regions 1 and 3 don't have 7.100-7.300 is that
their
governments wanted that spectrum for shortwave broacasting in 1938.
It's
not the fault of hams or governments in Region 2.

Where can I do the test for usage of 146 - 148 MHz?

Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

This is your sandbox, I
assume.

Not mine. Ours.

But all the other Ham frequencies are also the sandbox and
playground of all the hams in the world. Their numbers are a lot more than
just 100k.

And they're all welcome. But how many of them are actually using, say,
7.000 to 7.025?

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

Good question.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Thats the usual procedure in most countries of the globe to make a one shot
exam.


That's not the case in the USA. We have several classes of license,
with a very
easy and simple exam for the limited-privileges licenses and a more
advanced exam for the full-privileges license. By the standards of
most of the rest of
the world, the USA exams are very easy.

What is being discussed in this thread is a proposal that would give
more privileges to many with limited-privileges license *without* any
more tests.
I think that's a bad idea.

Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

That's the real problem - particularly for the Tech-to-General upgrade.

Effective after Aug. 15, 2003, this kind of upgrade from non-HF to HF- Hams
has occured after the WRC03 throughout the world.

Are you talking about the code test? We're talking about the *written*
tests.

This has been of greatest
benefit to ham radio after its developement. Now as there is young blood on
the bands, it will keep the ITU from knibbling on the bands.

How much difference has it really made?

How many countries have changed their rules?

How many new hams have gotten on the air since those changes?

How does the number of new hams since the changes compare to an equal
period of time before the changes?

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


N2EY wrote:


In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:



"N2EY" wrote in message
...


In article t, "Bill

Sohl"


writes:


[snip]



If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access


to


those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving


them


a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.


Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements. Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

Technically he's right Jim. He isn't supporting any reduction in the
writtens. He's supporting not having to take a test *at all*. There is a
difference, you know!


No there isn't.

Eliminating something is the same as reducing it to zero. The free upgrades
simply reduce the testing required for the upgrade to zero. Still a reduction.

I would have though by now you would have known that such a statement
from me was very tongue in cheek, Jim!



Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?


83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why?


The FCC wants to simplify -

Says who?

I recall that FCC **REJECTED** the ARRL proposal to free-upgrade Tech

Pluses

and Novices to General back in 1998-99. And even though ARRL proposed

keeping

the Advanced open, FCC rejected that too.

In fact it was *FCC's* idea to keep the Novice and Advanced as closed-off
license classes, rather than handing out free upgrades.

What has changed in the four years since then that now requires handing out
over 82,000 free passes to Extra, and over 322,000 free passes to General?



the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power limits.


And that part is a good idea! In fact, it's almost identical to what I

proposed

here more than 2 years ago. Except I'd require 5 wpm code...

But that doesn't explain the need for over 400,000 free upgrades.

Of course if the Novice is reopened with new HF privs, Tech Pluses should

get

those same privs. And if the code test isn't required for "NewNovices",

then

Techs should get those same HF privs.


After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net


I'll ask again for a link to those comments.


Please?


I think that when you scratch the surface of most people that support
reductions in the Morse code testing, you will find that they also
support reduction or elimination of the rest of the testing regimen.
There are exceptions, but they prove the rule IMO.


I disagree! I think many if not most anticodetest folks just want the code test
to go away. Frankly, I'm surprised that Carl has changed his tune so
completely.

Could be I'm not hanging out with the right no-coders, Jim. The ones I
know, with one or two exceptions, seem to be at least acqueiscing of the
ARRL plan. I think you would agree that their givaway plan fits the bill.



I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

By golly, that's a lot more high level hams!


Bingo.

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and

the

new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes

take

place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Yup!


I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Me too! I want to see if he can convince me of something I'd said I'd
never support!


I can see some possibilities:

- Free upgrading Techs would mean a lot more hams with HF, which is a big
arguing point against BPL

If I were arguing *for* BPL, I would denounce that little trick as a
transparent ploy. I think it is bad form to do something that gives the
opposition a foot in the door.

- Possible recruiting tool for ARRL ("look what we got you!")

Then what will they do for an encore?

- Less work for VECs (NCVEC is always complaining - see their comments.)

NO tests at all would lessen their workload.

- (the big one): The ARRL proposal dumps Element 1 for all but Extra.
Supporting it gets Carl and NCI most of what they want in the codetest area.
And maybe the FCC will dump Element 1 for Extra too....



I'd really like to see the link. Looked around eham but can't find the comments
mentioned.

Yeah, I've been looking too.

- Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

That's awfully big of you, Carl.

I haven't heard Carl on the lowest 25 of 80, 40, 20 or 15. Have you, Dave?

Nary a peep.


After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

So a "gimme" for tens of thousands is what makes sense to you, huh?
You've often written of morse tests as hoops and hazing, preventing
"otherwise qualified" people from entering amateur radio. You vowed that
you'd never support a watering down of written tests. Now you are
supporting a freebie for these thousands of "otherwise qualified"
individuals. "Otherwise qualified" must mean those people who can't
pass a required examination.

Required *WRITTEN* examination.

Note also that Carl has repeatedly said here that the current license structure
was just about right except for the code test and the need to beef up the Tech
written because it allows full power on "meat cooking frequencies" (great
catchphrase, btw). All of which made sense if you agree with the anticodetest
arguments. Now, for some reason, there's some sort of *need* to hand out lotsa
freebies. But no one will say why.

It must be that these folks are all "otherwise qualified".

YM will, of course V ...

I don't know about mileage, but my views certainly differs from yours.

Having met W1RFI and chauffered him around Philly a few weeks back, I'd really
like to read his reasoning on the ARRL proposal. 'Specially if he won over
Carl.

I had the pleasure of a lengthy chat with Ed at our state convention a
couple of summers back and I enjoyed the experience.

Heck, he might win me over!

I enjoyed our chat, but I'm not banking on his ability to win me over on
this one.

Dave K8MN