Alun wrote:

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in
igy.com:



"Alun" wrote in message
. ..


I see no benefit in giving over 7125-7150 to phone. 7075-7100, for
example, would be the same size and in a more useful place. Moreover,
it would harmonise Region 2 US hams with US hams outside R2.



This will crowd the CW/digital/data modes too much since there are so
many US hams. It would be better to wait for the other treaty changes
from the conference to take affect and synchronize Regions 1 and 3 with
Region 2. You do know of course that the treaty now requires
broadcasters to move out of 7.1 to 7.2 and that this will become an
exclusive amateur allocation.



Of course I do, but do you think they will really move? Some may, but I
think some of them never will.


Maybe we all should move voice to the bottom of 40m, and create a new
subband for
modes that create bad QRM to the broadcasters who don't vacate? :-)

Larry Roll K3LT wrote:


I don't see why the Extra-class code test requirement needs to be set at the
current 5 WPM level. A 12-wpm code test would be a better idea, and anyone
interested enough in achieving Extra could go from nothing to that level in a
matter of weeks. However, since Extra is already dumbed-down to 5 WPM, I
guess there's no putting the toothpaste back in the tube.



The medical wavier issue would pop up again. And the FCC doesn't want
to deal
with that. As I (mis)undestand it, all you had to do to get a wavier
was to tell your
family doctor you had this problem with the code, and all he had to do
was sign off
on it. Most doctors probably didn't understand the issue beyond that
there was no
safety issue involved ("What, you can't learn how to drive a bus, well,
here's a
wavier to take to the DMV to get a commercial driver's license") and it was
unlikely that anyone would question the doctor about it. So it was
easily abused,
and the FCC doesn't want to deal with it. And the FCC doesn't gain anything
out of requiring higher speed code (it's not a lid filter, as witness
14.313 before
restructuring).

Zonedout wrote:

N2EY wrote:



3 classes of license: Novice, General, Extra



The ARRL & FCC should just stop screwing around, forget
hams' need to have their ego stroked with the license
class of "Advanced" or "Extra" printed on their ticket,
and just rename the classes Class A, B, & C.

Everyone gets a new "name" for their license class and
all the whiners that "Advanced" sounds more advanced
than "Extra", etc., are just cut off at the knees.




Change the names to "top banana", "2nd banana", and "beginner"

;-)

Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote:

"Tom Winston" wrote in message ...


On 19 Jan 2004 10:08:20 -0800, N2EY wrote:


Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra, ...


That's not an upgrade; that's a downgrade. Advanced class licensees
passed the Extra class written exam, and passed a 13 wpm code test.
Furthermore, most Advanced class licensees took the older Extra exam
-- an exam that's a lot tougher than the current Extra exam.



Uhhhh...in what universe?

The only "Advanced" class licensees that I know of that took an
Extra written test but didn't upgrade were one's who failed the 20WPM.

There was that window of time from Jan 2000 to April 14, 2000 where one
could take the
extra written, pass it, get the CSCE, and cash it in on April 15, 2000.
And then have
your extra. And not fail the 20wpm test because he didn't take it. I
did this and also
took the advanced written (was an old tech plus), and cashed in the
CSCEs April 15th.


And I'd like to know how getting more operating privileges is a
"downgrade"...?!?!

Would you take an airline ticket "upgrade" by moving FROM First
Class to Coach? Uh uh...It's the other way around. Same here.



Possession of the Advanced class license proves that the holder met
higher standards than the current crop of Extras.

But those advanceds didn't do the extra writtens (4B). So, if the extra
written is "worth"
more than 13wpm, then todays' extras have higher standards than the
advanceds'.
Depends on how you call it, if element 4B 13wpm or not.




Perhaps. Certainly the Advanced Class folks passed a more
stringent code test. My Advanced written was hard, but so was the
Extra. I am proud of both.

It's a good thing to have, but it's not at the top of my resume. My 13
patents
and BSEE are above it. Now that we're in bragging mode.... :-)

In article , Robert Casey wrote:

Change the names to "top banana", "2nd banana", and "beginner"

Then I get to change my Phonetics to
"Another Banana 2 Render Code"

Alex / AB2RC

"KØHB" wrote in news:JYnPb.21394$zj7.4912
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:


"Alun" wrote

That's not what I read. As far as I know it is in a law
that was sponsored by the late Senator Barry
Goldwater, K7UGA.

I'm certain you're mistaken.

73, de Hans, K0HB






It might be more productive if someone could produce some evidence one way
or the other!

Robert Casey wrote in
:

Alan wrote:

(N2EY) wrote in
:



In article , Alun
writes:



(N2EY) wrote in news:c2356669.0401191008.a3c8376
:



http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/01/19/1/?nc=1

Summary:

3 classes of license: Novice, General, Extra


The _only_ merit to that is that testing was free for Novices, so it
would reintroduce a free licence class.


Not part of the proposal as I read it.




As I understand it, the law providing free testing for Novices remains
on the books. Hence, it really does matter what the entry level licence
is called. If it is re-named 'Novice', then the test is free.

No, it's not part of the proposal, and having since read the whole
thing on the ARRL web site, it appears that the league haven't thought
about this particular wrinkle, as they say that the name is still open
and it could be called something else.



The new Novice would replace the existing Technician class as the
entry level exam. It would have less power and fewer VHF/UHF
privileges, but more HF privileges.



Provided the new class that happened to
be called Novice had Tech Plus privileges and they had to pass the
current Element 2 I would have no trouble with that


Why?



I thought the old Novice was too easy



Current Element 2 is very VHF/UHF centric, and so are current Tech
Plus privs. The goal seems to be to strike more of a balance between
above and below 30 MHz privileges.



So change the question pool, but don't dumb it down



5 wpm code test retained for Extra only


Predictably, I do have a problem with that.


Me too. Should be at least 13 and preferably 20 wpm. Sending and
receiving.




Won't happen

Exactly. Nobody else uses code anymore. And what does the FCC
get out of it? And the medical wavier issues come back.... They ain't
gonna do anything to have THAT come up again!




Morse skill testing for voice privileges is illogical and should be
dumped.


It's no more illogical than testing theory in order to be allowed to
use manufactured equipment.




Not in my opinion



Moreover, it can be now,
since it has not been required by the ITU for the last six months.



FCC will most probably just drop it completely.




I think they will too

Again, nobody else uses code anymore. Code made good sense back
50 years ago during the vacuum tube radio era. Simple equipment was
all that was needed and given the reliability of vacuum tube stuff
voice could likely fail when needed. But today's equipment is all made
with chips and quite reliable. And digital modes like packet can
handle automatically
health and welfare traffic code used to do, with less operators needed.




Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra,


OK


Why OK? Why not simply carry the Advanceds as a separate class, as has
been done for the past 3 years and 9 months?



Can't stand loose ends

Let's say that 4 years experience as an advanced is equal to element 4B
(the old extra written an advanced used to be able to take to get his
extra).
So make the advanced turn into an extra next April.




Techs and Tech Pluses get free upgrade to General


Not OK in this scenario, given my comments above



Agreed - but why is it OK for Advanceds to get a free upgrade to
Extra, but not OK for Techs and Tech Pluses to get free upgrade to
General?

What is the fundamental difference that makes one freebie OK but not
the other?



As I see it, the new Novice would be a replacement for the Tech, which
is already pretty easy



'Phone image subbands for 80/40/15 widened slightly


Good.


Bad.



Some phone below 7100? No? Why not?


That space is needed for CW and digital modes.



Better to keep those on the Novice freqs and refarm more useful
spectrum to phone

Are the digital modes more tolerant of SW broadcaster QRM than SSB? If
so, move the digital modes to 7150-7300 and voice 7000-7150. If
nothing else, it would help chase the SW broadcasters away...



Brilliant idea! Now that's what I call lateral thinking. It'll never happen
though.

I suggest:-

7000-7045 CW/Digital
7045-7100 Phone
7100-7150 CW/Digital
7150-7245 Phone
7245-7300 CW/Digital

Nothing atall wrong with that, in fact it would be a major improvement.
It'll get me flamed, though!

73 de Alun, N3KIP

(N2EY) wrote in
om:

Alun wrote in message
.. .
(N2EY) wrote in
om:

Alun wrote in message
. ..
(N2EY) wrote in
:

In article , Alun
writes:

(N2EY) wrote in news:c2356669.0401191008.a3c8376
:

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/01/19/1/?nc=1

Summary:

3 classes of license: Novice, General, Extra

The _only_ merit to that is that testing was free for Novices, so
it would reintroduce a free licence class.

Not part of the proposal as I read it.


As I understand it, the law providing free testing for Novices
remains on the books. Hence, it really does matter what the entry
level licence is called. If it is re-named 'Novice', then the test
is free.

No, it's not part of the proposal, and having since read the whole
thing on the ARRL web site, it appears that the league haven't
thought about this particular wrinkle, as they say that the name is
still open and it could be called something else.

Unless K0HB is mistaken, no such rule exists in Part 97. And since
no new Novices have been issued in almost 4 years, it's a bit of a
moot point.

But it might be a nice thing for VECs to do...

As best as I can follow it a statute made testing free for Novices, and a
later administrative decision closed the class to new entrants. Obviously
the FCC don't have to include in Part 97 a rule giving free testing for
Novices whilst there are no Novice tests, but if they re-started Novice
testing it would have to be free. I admit I could be wrong, but that is how
I understand it, unless someone can show me proof to the contrary.


The new Novice would replace the existing Technician class as the
entry level exam. It would have less power and fewer VHF/UHF
privileges, but more HF privileges.

Provided the new class that happened to
be called Novice had Tech Plus privileges and they had to pass
the current Element 2 I would have no trouble with that

Why?

I thought the old Novice was too easy

Why? The old 20-25 question Novice I took in 1967 at the age of 13
was adequate to keep me out of trouble, even though my first station
was homebrewed from junk parts. And that Novice license started me
on the path to Advanced in about a year, Extra in about 3 years and
BSEE in a little over 8 years....

And there were many many Novices like me. If an entry level license
keeps the newbies out of trouble and inspires them to learn and do
more, isn't that just about perfect?

Well?

Think about it - what exactly *should* an entry-level license do? If
it insures that newcomers know enough to keep out of trouble (on the
air, anyway,) gives them a sample of what amateur radio is about, and
inspires them to learn and do more with ham radio, isn't that just
about perfect?

I don't see very many people having any great difficulty with the present
Element 2, so why does it need to be easier? The privileges would be more
than the old Novice as well.


Current Element 2 is very VHF/UHF centric, and so are current
Tech Plus privs. The goal seems to be to strike more of a balance
between above and below 30 MHz privileges.

So change the question pool, but don't dumb it down

How do we define "dumbing it down"? If 35 questions are adequate for
all amateur VHF/UHF at full meat-cooking power, plus 200 watts on
parts of HF, shouldn't 25 be adequate for the limited privs proposed
for the Novice?

How much is it reasonable to expect a newcomer to learn in order to be
turned loose with ~100 watts on parts of HF and ~25 watts on parts of
VHF/UHF?


To put it another way, why shouldn't the Techs have all those proposed HF
privileges, since they have passed a test with more questions than that
proposed?

5 wpm code test retained for Extra only

Predictably, I do have a problem with that.

Me too. Should be at least 13 and preferably 20 wpm. Sending and
receiving.

Won't happen

Probably not, but it's still a good idea.

Morse skill testing for voice privileges is illogical and should
be dumped.

It's no more illogical than testing theory in order to be allowed
to use manufactured equipment.

Not in my opinion

It's the same argument used against the code test. Why *must* a ham
learn all that theory to use manufactured, approved gear with no
critical adjustments? Heck, most ham gear today won't transmit out
of band unless modified!

Moreover, it can be now,
since it has not been required by the ITU for the last six
months.

FCC will most probably just drop it completely.

I think they will too

Unfortunately

Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra,

OK

Why OK? Why not simply carry the Advanceds as a separate class,
as has been done for the past 3 years and 9 months?

Can't stand loose ends

What's the problem? FCC kept the Advanced on the books from 1953 to
1967 even though no new ones were issued and the license conveyed no
additional privileges at all.

Do those loose ends really cause any problems?

Confusion?

Besides, Element 4A had most of the harder questions anyway.


Techs and Tech Pluses get free upgrade to General

Not OK in this scenario, given my comments above

Agreed - but why is it OK for Advanceds to get a free upgrade to
Extra, but not OK for Techs and Tech Pluses to get free upgrade
to General?

What is the fundamental difference that makes one freebie OK but
not the other?

As I see it, the new Novice would be a replacement for the Tech,
which is already pretty easy

Exactly. But that doesn't answer the question. You want Advanceds to
get free upgrades to avoid ~82,000 loose ends, but not Techs and
Tech pluses, who would
amount to ~322,000 loose ends.

I don't see why one and not the other.

'Phone image subbands for 80/40/15 widened slightly

Good.

Bad.

Some phone below 7100? No? Why not?

That space is needed for CW and digital modes.

Better to keep those on the Novice freqs and refarm more useful
spectrum to phone

Why reward the most spectrum-inefficent modes? Why not digital
voice?

It has worse S/N performance than SSB


Old Novice subbands replaced by additional CW/data
and 'phone subbands on 80/40/15. Novices also get privs on 6,
2, 222, and 440

See above

Please clarify.

I see no benefit in giving over 7125-7150 to phone.

25 kHz more.

7075-7100, for example,
would be the same size and in a more useful place. Moreover, it
would harmonise Region 2 US hams with US hams outside R2.

Hams outside Region 2 will be getting 7100-7200 anyway. Let them
harmonize with us.


US hams outside R2 already have 7075-7100 phone

Only because they don't have 7100-7200. US hams outside R2 are rare
enough to be conidered "DX" anyway.

Read it again. *US* hams outside R2

I did. As they get 7100-7200, any reason to have 'phone below
7100 goes away completely.

Only when:-

1 - all the broadcasters have moved, probably circa the year 2100; and

2 - all the countries have 7100-7200, which might almost take as long


Novice power level set below that requiring RF exposure
evaluation

OK

Agreed.

Novice test to be 25 questions on "basics",

Not OK

Why not? Current Element 2 is only 35 questions! And it has a lot
more ground to cover, including all amateur VHF/UHF bands and
modes, power up to "meat cooking" levels (love that WK3C phrase)
and much more.

By reducing the entry-level privs, 25 questions should be enough.


With that power limit you could take out the RF exposure questions,
but I think the test is already easy enough.

To a beginner, it's not so easy.

My XYL passed Elements 2 and 3A, and she has no real interest in radio.


General to be
derived from Tech and General, Extra pretty much as-is.

What do you actually think of this proposal yourself, Jim? You
don't say here.

See above. A few good ideas and a few bad ideas. Obviously the
work of a committee looking to give everyone something they want,
but not giving anyone everything they want.

What will FCC do?

First off, they may just go for the "new Novice", in an effort to
attract more new hams.

Re-naming the Tech as a Novice would make the test free under
existing law. That has some appeal.

See above about the "law".

Second, they will probably just dump Element 1.

Agreed

Third, they will probably not hand out free upgrades because it
costs them little or nothing to keep the closed-off classes.

I think that for some reason their computers are only set up to
handle 5 classes of licence, but I guess that works out as there
won't be two types of Tech anymore (this is also the reason why
they aren't recorded differently right now).

Incorrect!

Before restructuring, their computers handled 6 classes of license
(Novice, Tech, Tech Plus, General, Advanced, Extra). In fact their
computers *still* handle 6 classes! So there should be no problem at
all.

And as Tech Pluses continue to be renewed as Techs, expire, and
upgrade, that class will disappear completely.

I personally am not in favour of keeping closed licence classes,
though. I think it is better to move on.

I agree, but not at the price of giveaways just to make things look
neater.


Better that than the only possible alternative - taking privileges
away

But is there really any reason not to simply continue those license
classes? That's a much, much better option than freebies or removing
privileges.

No it's not. If we abolish them we can sort out all the subbands.


How would you feel if it were decided to give all existing hams
except Novices a free upgrade to Extra, then have just two classes -
"Limited" (new name for Novice) and "Full" (everybody else)?

73 de Jim, N2EY


I would be OK with that only if the Techs got only a limited licence.

Why would Techs be singled out for a limited license? They have full
privs above 50 MHz.

I
would have no problem with giving Generals a full licence.

By your reasoning, there's no reason to have the Extra, then. Nor its
test.


Correct.

Of course, to be
fair you would have to extend that to Techs with old Element 3.

Where ya been, Alun?

Techs with old Element 3 (licensed before March 21, 1987) can get a
General
license *today* with no additional testing. Just show up at a VE
session with
proof of such license, fill out the 605 and pay the VE fee. Instant
General.
And if such a ham can pass the Extra written (might as well try, the
same
VE fee buys that test too), they get an Extra.

Been that way since April 15, 2000.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Robert Casey wrote in news:400ECC4F.9040505
@ix.netcom.com:

Alun wrote:

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in
digy.com:



"Alun" wrote in message
...


I see no benefit in giving over 7125-7150 to phone. 7075-7100, for
example, would be the same size and in a more useful place. Moreover,
it would harmonise Region 2 US hams with US hams outside R2.



This will crowd the CW/digital/data modes too much since there are so
many US hams. It would be better to wait for the other treaty changes
from the conference to take affect and synchronize Regions 1 and 3 with
Region 2. You do know of course that the treaty now requires
broadcasters to move out of 7.1 to 7.2 and that this will become an
exclusive amateur allocation.



Of course I do, but do you think they will really move? Some may, but I
think some of them never will.


Maybe we all should move voice to the bottom of 40m, and create a new
subband for
modes that create bad QRM to the broadcasters who don't vacate? :-)






With a power limit of 50kW to make sure, ROTFL!

"google blogger" wrote in message
roups.com...

Looks like the Ivy League also has **finally** realized that the Incentive
License disaster of the 1960's pretty much trashed ham radio.


Learn your history. ARRL fought that proposal. That was solely the idea of
the FCC.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE