Subject: These EXTRA'S, Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: (William)
Date: 10/21/2004 5:38 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

And in ANY case, you STILL don't make a case for your "several Extras
on
RRAP" assertion.

So..............You're STILL shy of some facts here, Brain.

Try again.

The evidence is damning, unless you fold your PCTA blinders directly
over your eyeballs.

No blinders needed, Brain.

You've not even "remotely" made a case for "several Extras on RRAP"
suggesting that NOT having an Extra is a problem, let alone "damning".

You're the Little Piggie making the house out of straw, Brain, and it
takes nothing to knock it over.

TRY AGAIN!

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: N2EY Despises Advanced Class Operators::: These EXTRA'S,
Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: (William)
Date: 10/21/2004 5:56 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(N2EY) wrote in message
.com...

The "what's his problem" reaction above happened a relatively short
time ago, not the 1960s, so the code test wasn't the issue at all.

That was Steve's assumption -and- mistake.

No assumptpn or mistake...

Yhe comments were made about a SPECIFIC "special activities" club that
pretty much requires an Extra for all it's members in order to have the
greatest flexibility and functionality on the air.

Is that an "elitist" situation? Maybe - but that club is an elite
group. Their accomplishments in their chosen field tell the tale.

Jim, -you- chimed in with "Well, what IS his problem?" indicating that
you agree with the scorn given a mere Advanced class operator who
wished to contest with like-minded people.

Best of luck.

"Scorn"...?!?!

What "scorn"...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

I wrote a very benign letter to Rich, W2VU at CQ
magazine to try and locate the article that I remembered reading.

Here's why it looks familiar:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...ews.com&output
=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...1.deja.com&out
put=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...1.deja.com&out
put=gplain

I don't read CQ with any regularity so I don't know if it's in there or not.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"My name is Jim and despite being lectured to by numerous 'radio cops' and
'newsgroup cops', I'm still a radio amateur and still online"

It is a good point you make, Jim.

TNX

First time I ever used an autopatch,
a local Ham came on afterward, and let me know about some mistakes I was
making. I thanked him, and we went on our merry ways. Even now, last
weekend, when I was operating in a contest, another Ham came on and
asked if I could move "upwind a bit". I asked him if he had a pref of
how far, he told me, and I moved. We both went on our merry ways.

I've had similar encounters on the air.

Later in the same contest on 20 meters, a Ham (presumably, since he
didn't ID) broke in on a QSO to chastize me for using speech compression
- which I do if I need to.

I asked him if he wanted to make a QSO with
me, and he said "Hell NO, you stupid asshole!"

What's *his* problem? As long as you're not splattering, speech
compression in a contest is a good idea, isn't it? (If you're
splattering, it's a bad idea, period).

I thanked him and noted
that it was good to see there were still gentlemen on the air, and we
both went our merry ways.

bwaahaahaa

Point is that its a big world with all types, and if you are going to
allow one early experience to convince you to call it quits, then you
must have had some interest issues going on.

Maybe.

Lessee, a person studies the writtens, takes the time to learn Morse
code to 13wpm, takes the time and trouble and expense to take the tests.
Then in his first QSO is chastized for using "my first personal is"
instead of "My name is", so they quit?

The person in Hans' story was on a repeater, using an HT. While it's
not stated explicitly, the implication is that the newbie was a
brand-new Tech.

I can only assume Hans is telling the truth, as he seems a pretty
straight shooter to me. I draw a different conclusion tho'. Mr Newbie
Ham was waaaayyy too sensitive, either from embarrassment or ego.

Of course it was a made-up story, as Hans has written.

My take on it is somewhat different.

First off, nobody with any sense says "first personal" in normal
conversation. That's cb slang, pure and simple, and it has no place in
amateur radio. Period. If somebody wants to talk like that, 27 MHz is
the place, not 2 meters. Q signals on voice aren't as bad, but they're
usually not good operating practice.

But on-air lectures aren't the way to stop those things. Better to
simply set an example and ignore the newbie's mistakes unless they are
rules violations. I've had folks tell me their "first personal here is
Bob" and I simply reply "my name is Jim" and on with the conversation.
Pretty soon they get the idea that a one-syllable word that everyone
recognizes is better than four syllables in two words, without any
lectures. Even if they don't pick up on the example, it's not illegal,
just silly.

The second thing about the story that I find odd is that 'Jim" didn't
appear to listen to how hams talk on the air before jumping in. Most
newcomers I've come across at least do that for a short time, getting
the feel for the form of a contact and other practices before talking.
They tend to imitate what they hear, too.

The third thing is that even though the lecturer took great pains to
be nice, 'Jim' was still driven off.

The moral of Hans' story seems to be "Don't ever tell anybody how to
operate, no matter how nicely, because they might be driven off." The
implication seems to be that we should accept any sort of behavior
on-air, rather than risk offending anybody. The paradox is that the
story has the tone of a lecture!

When I started out way back in 1967, ARRL sent me an article called
"Your Novice Accent" that explained in clear terms how-to and
how-not-to. Of course it was aimed at the typical crystal-controlled
CW-using Novice of those days, but the concept was sound.

We cannot control how others talk. The simple attempt to control teh
behavior often reinforces the behavior.

Yep. But that does not mean "anything goes". Which will happen if we
keep *too* quiet.


73 de Jim, N2EY

....who does not say "destinated" either......


OT story: Some time back, a telephone conversation with some service
desk or other resulted in the person on the other end asking for my
"social". I had no idea what she meant, asked her to repeat it a few
times, etc. She actually started to get impatient, as if I were
playing games with here or just being a bit dim.

Finally she said she just needed the last four digits. Finally dawned
on me that what she wanted was my social security number! (It was an
appropriate request for the call). I'd never heard that one before. I
must be getting old....

"N2EY" wrote


First off, nobody with any sense says "first personal" in normal
conversation.


Nope, nobody I ever heard.

That's cb slang, pure and simple,

Yup, that's where "Jim" learned it.

and it has no place in amateur radio. Period.

Why not? They use borrowed ham slang like "handle" on CB.

Q signals on voice aren't as bad, but they're
usually not good operating practice.

Why are they not "good operating practice"? Everyone understands them,
even if "nobody with any sense" uses them in normal conversation.


The moral of Hans' story seems to be "Don't ever tell anybody how to
operate, no matter how nicely, because they might be driven off." The
implication seems to be that we should accept any sort of behavior
on-air, rather than risk offending anybody.


As a KVG fan, I'd have thought you'd be the one person here to see the
moral of the story, because it echos the theme of almost all of his
work, which boils down to "BE NICE, DAMN-IT!"

"Pretend to be good always,
and even God will be fooled."

- God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater

73, de Hans, K0HB

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:


In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:



I wrote a very benign letter to Rich, W2VU at CQ
magazine to try and locate the article that I remembered reading.

Here's why it looks familiar:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...ews.com&output
=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...1.deja.com&out
put=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...1.deja.com&out
put=gplain

I don't read CQ with any regularity so I don't know if it's in there or not.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"My name is Jim and despite being lectured to by numerous 'radio cops' and
'newsgroup cops', I'm still a radio amateur and still online"

It is a good point you make, Jim.


TNX


First time I ever used an autopatch,
a local Ham came on afterward, and let me know about some mistakes I was
making. I thanked him, and we went on our merry ways. Even now, last
weekend, when I was operating in a contest, another Ham came on and
asked if I could move "upwind a bit". I asked him if he had a pref of
how far, he told me, and I moved. We both went on our merry ways.


I've had similar encounters on the air.


Later in the same contest on 20 meters, a Ham (presumably, since he
didn't ID) broke in on a QSO to chastize me for using speech compression
- which I do if I need to.


I asked him if he wanted to make a QSO with
me, and he said "Hell NO, you stupid asshole!"


What's *his* problem? As long as you're not splattering, speech
compression in a contest is a good idea, isn't it? (If you're
splattering, it's a bad idea, period).


I thanked him and noted
that it was good to see there were still gentlemen on the air, and we
both went our merry ways.


bwaahaahaa


Point is that its a big world with all types, and if you are going to
allow one early experience to convince you to call it quits, then you
must have had some interest issues going on.


Maybe.


Lessee, a person studies the writtens, takes the time to learn Morse
code to 13wpm, takes the time and trouble and expense to take the tests.
Then in his first QSO is chastized for using "my first personal is"
instead of "My name is", so they quit?


The person in Hans' story was on a repeater, using an HT. While it's
not stated explicitly, the implication is that the newbie was a
brand-new Tech.

I can only assume Hans is telling the truth, as he seems a pretty
straight shooter to me. I draw a different conclusion tho'. Mr Newbie
Ham was waaaayyy too sensitive, either from embarrassment or ego.


Of course it was a made-up story, as Hans has written.

Well I was originally tinking that, then I read in the googled up
thread you provided where Hans noted that he was a 13wpm general, and
had applied for a job where Hans worked.

Got Me! multi layered leg pulling!


My take on it is somewhat different.

First off, nobody with any sense says "first personal" in normal
conversation. That's cb slang, pure and simple, and it has no place in
amateur radio. Period. If somebody wants to talk like that, 27 MHz is
the place, not 2 meters. Q signals on voice aren't as bad, but they're
usually not good operating practice.

I use QSL in voice contesting simply because everyone eles is doing it,
but in normal QSO's on HF, I use plain english, except when saying
things like QSL card, which is what it's name is. I do use some of the Q
signals when I type tho'. But my skin crawls when I hear somone say HI HI!


But on-air lectures aren't the way to stop those things. Better to
simply set an example and ignore the newbie's mistakes unless they are
rules violations. I've had folks tell me their "first personal here is
Bob" and I simply reply "my name is Jim" and on with the conversation.
Pretty soon they get the idea that a one-syllable word that everyone
recognizes is better than four syllables in two words, without any
lectures. Even if they don't pick up on the example, it's not illegal,
just silly.

The second thing about the story that I find odd is that 'Jim" didn't
appear to listen to how hams talk on the air before jumping in. Most
newcomers I've come across at least do that for a short time, getting
the feel for the form of a contact and other practices before talking.
They tend to imitate what they hear, too.

The third thing is that even though the lecturer took great pains to
be nice, 'Jim' was still driven off.

The moral of Hans' story seems to be "Don't ever tell anybody how to
operate, no matter how nicely, because they might be driven off." The
implication seems to be that we should accept any sort of behavior
on-air, rather than risk offending anybody. The paradox is that the
story has the tone of a lecture!

When I started out way back in 1967, ARRL sent me an article called
"Your Novice Accent" that explained in clear terms how-to and
how-not-to. Of course it was aimed at the typical crystal-controlled
CW-using Novice of those days, but the concept was sound.


We cannot control how others talk. The simple attempt to control teh
behavior often reinforces the behavior.


Yep. But that does not mean "anything goes". Which will happen if we
keep *too* quiet.


73 de Jim, N2EY

...who does not say "destinated" either......


No one should misunderestimate your strategery, eh?


OT story: Some time back, a telephone conversation with some service
desk or other resulted in the person on the other end asking for my
"social". I had no idea what she meant, asked her to repeat it a few
times, etc. She actually started to get impatient, as if I were
playing games with here or just being a bit dim.

Finally she said she just needed the last four digits. Finally dawned
on me that what she wanted was my social security number! (It was an
appropriate request for the call). I'd never heard that one before. I
must be getting old....

Same thing happened to me. I was purchasing a fitness loft pass at the
University, and the nice young lady asked for my "soch". Fortunately,
she saw that I was an OF, and said "Oh, that means your Social Security
number".

- mike KB3EIA -

In article , Alun
writes:

(N2EY) wrote in
. com:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: These EXTRA'S, Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: (William)
Date: 10/20/2004 6:55 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
om...
(William) wrote in message
. com...
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in
message
ink.net...
Riley is not a Extra class.

Dan/W4NTI

Quote from several Extra's on RRAP, "So what's his problem?"

Which of "several Extra's", Brain?

There's only a few of us, so it can't be TOO hard to pony up a
quote.

Re-quotes from posts, please? FACTS...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------

From: N2EY )
Subject: Excellent ARRL proposal


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy
Date: 2004-01-25 12:31:04 PST


In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:
go thru to get on the air. There were neighborhood radio clubs
which didn't allow full voting memberships to Novices and Techs .
. .


And in the mid-60s there were still some who did similar things.
Indeed, there were Advanceds who looked down on Generals, Generals
who looked down on Conditionals, Conditionals who looked down on
Techs, and Techs who looked down on Novices. Etc.

And it wasn't just kids vs. adults, either.

Yessir, It's 2004 and it's **still** out there. Guy was up late last
year for the vote on approving his membership application into The
Group (the 43rd & Kingsessing "Group" we're both familair with yes?)

You mean the one where the attendance sheet looks like the DXCC Honor
Roll?

and somebody asked "what license class does he have?" His sponser:
"Uhhh . . Advanced." Then he ducked. Immediate 180dBA noise level
from the Back Benchers, "what the hell is this guy's problem?"

Well, what IS his problem?

That group is heavily focused on DX and contesting - particularly DX
contesting. They're "a bit competitive"....

Anything less than an Extra is a big competitive disadvantage in DX
contesting. Like not being able to work split. So why doesn't the guy
get one? Even if he only works 'phone, all he need do is pass element
4. And he's had almost 4 years.

No, wait, that's not a good reason. Those writtens are really tough.
More than 4 years ago, (Jan 19, 2000, to be exact) a certain verbose
nonham here said he was going for Extra "right out of the box". But
no ham license of any class yet. And this nonham says he's a "radio
PROFESSIONAL"....

Maybe he should apply to The Group. I'd like to attend that
meeting....

Then as now, they were few - but noisy.

Maybe it was different where you were, Dan.

It's all just cycles Dan and the 1968 maneuver was not the first
cycle by any means and welcome to the current cycle. There will
be others.

Circle Game.

Dit-dit!

Still nothing from one of "us"

It STILL does not answer your suggestion about "several Extras"
in RRAP suggesting that anything less than an Extra Class is "a
problem".

That's right.

The story relates the telling of some club some time ago wherein
some other group of people may have acted stupidly.

That depends on the definition of "stupid".

You have yet to quote Brian (W3RV), Hans, Jim, the other Jim, or
myself, among others, as having said anything close to "what's
his problem" over not being an Extra class licensee.

Let's clear this up.

The club referred to above is a special-interest amateur radio
organization, not a general-purpose club. Their focus is HF contesting
and DXing, setting up stations to do those things better, and not
much else. They don't do domestic contests or QSO parties; they focus
on the big stuff. Their members are highly competitive, and
progressive. (Example: They were among the very first to have
computers in their hamshacks).

In pursuit of the club goals, an Extra class license is pretty much a
necessity, because the DX is often in those subbands. That's just the
way it is.

So the fact that somebody without an Extra would even apply for
membership and expect to be taken as a serious DXer/contester by that
bunch indicates a problem someplace.

The "what's his problem" reaction above happened a relatively short
time ago, not the 1960s, so the code test wasn't the issue at all.

Is that an "elitist" situation? Maybe - but that club is an elite
group. Their accomplishments in their chosen field tell the tale.

73 de Jim, N2EY

I don't know Jim. I know I guy who is on the DXCC Honor Roll and is only a
General.

Of course. The exception that proves the rule.

I'm an Extra and I don't even have my basic DXCC.

Me neither. I'm not into DXing that much.

I could see the
same might apply to contesting too.

Sure.

The discussion quoted above was about admission to a very serious DX/contest
club. Their standards are high, and their goal is to win. Not having an Extra
is an easily-avoided disadvantage, and that the applicant didn't understand
that was an indication that he didn't really understand what the club is all
about.

Heck, if I applied, they'd probably ask me what logging software I use in
contests. And when I told them I use paper logs, they'd probably say:

"What's *your* problem, Jim?"

73 de Jim, N2EY

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: N2EY Despises Advanced Class Operators::: These EXTRA'S,
Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: (William)
Date: 10/21/2004 5:56 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(N2EY) wrote in message
.com...

The "what's his problem" reaction above happened a relatively short
time ago, not the 1960s, so the code test wasn't the issue at all.

That was Steve's assumption -and- mistake.

No assumptpn or mistake...

1960's!!!

Steve's assumption and Steve's mistake.

Take a deep breath, suck up that considerable gut, puff out that chest
and act like a man - apologize!

Yhe comments were made about a SPECIFIC "special activities" club that
pretty much requires an Extra for all it's members in order to have the
greatest flexibility and functionality on the air.

"1960's," Steve, "1960's."

Is that an "elitist" situation? Maybe - but that club is an elite
group. Their accomplishments in their chosen field tell the tale.

Jim, -you- chimed in with "Well, what IS his problem?" indicating that
you agree with the scorn given a mere Advanced class operator who
wished to contest with like-minded people.

Best of luck.

"Scorn"...?!?!

What "scorn"...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

Scorn for a mere Advanced Class licensee thinking he could compete in
2003.

Hi, Hi!!!

Maybe Kelly can tell us if this "fool" was accepted into the den of
inequity.

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: These EXTRA'S, Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: (William)
Date: 10/21/2004 5:38 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

And in ANY case, you STILL don't make a case for your "several Extras
on
RRAP" assertion.

So..............You're STILL shy of some facts here, Brain.

Try again.

The evidence is damning, unless you fold your PCTA blinders directly
over your eyeballs.

No blinders needed, Brain.

You've not even "remotely" made a case for "several Extras on RRAP"
suggesting that NOT having an Extra is a problem, let alone "damning".

You're the Little Piggie making the house out of straw, Brain, and it
takes nothing to knock it over.

TRY AGAIN!

Steve, K4YZ

Jim/N2EY: "What IS his problem?"

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: These EXTRA'S, Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 10/22/2004 5:54 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

btw, Steve, no disrespect intended, but among those folks, 115 countries
isn't
a big deal. Twice that many isn't! It's just a matter of what they focus on.

No offense taken.

I know that a lot of the "big ones" are in the bottom 25kHz, but at the
same time, a lot of them transmit in the bottom 25 and listen up. That's where
I caught a lot of them.

Although I know you can use "past" callsigns collectively to get your
DXCC, I reworked almost all of them again under K4YZ to get my DXCC. A few
were left overs from when I held my 2X1, but most were done over...just to do
it.


73

Steve, K4YZ

Meow, meow. Purr, purr. Lick, lick.

Alun wrote in message . ..
(N2EY) wrote in
om:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: These EXTRA'S, Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: (William)
Date: 10/20/2004 6:55 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
om...
(William) wrote in message
. com...
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in
message
ink.net...
Riley is not a Extra class.

Dan/W4NTI

Quote from several Extra's on RRAP, "So what's his problem?"

Which of "several Extra's", Brain?

There's only a few of us, so it can't be TOO hard to pony up a
quote.

Re-quotes from posts, please? FACTS...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------

From: N2EY )
Subject: Excellent ARRL proposal


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy
Date: 2004-01-25 12:31:04 PST


In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:
go thru to get on the air. There were neighborhood radio clubs
which didn't allow full voting memberships to Novices and Techs .
. .


And in the mid-60s there were still some who did similar things.
Indeed, there were Advanceds who looked down on Generals, Generals
who looked down on Conditionals, Conditionals who looked down on
Techs, and Techs who looked down on Novices. Etc.

And it wasn't just kids vs. adults, either.

Yessir, It's 2004 and it's **still** out there. Guy was up late last
year for the vote on approving his membership application into The
Group (the 43rd & Kingsessing "Group" we're both familair with yes?)

You mean the one where the attendance sheet looks like the DXCC Honor
Roll?

and somebody asked "what license class does he have?" His sponser:
"Uhhh . . Advanced." Then he ducked. Immediate 180dBA noise level
from the Back Benchers, "what the hell is this guy's problem?"

Well, what IS his problem?

That group is heavily focused on DX and contesting - particularly DX
contesting. They're "a bit competitive"....

Anything less than an Extra is a big competitive disadvantage in DX
contesting. Like not being able to work split. So why doesn't the guy
get one? Even if he only works 'phone, all he need do is pass element
4. And he's had almost 4 years.

No, wait, that's not a good reason. Those writtens are really tough.
More than 4 years ago, (Jan 19, 2000, to be exact) a certain verbose
nonham here said he was going for Extra "right out of the box". But
no ham license of any class yet. And this nonham says he's a "radio
PROFESSIONAL"....

Maybe he should apply to The Group. I'd like to attend that
meeting....

Then as now, they were few - but noisy.

Maybe it was different where you were, Dan.

It's all just cycles Dan and the 1968 maneuver was not the first
cycle by any means and welcome to the current cycle. There will
be others.

Circle Game.

Dit-dit!

Still nothing from one of "us"

It STILL does not answer your suggestion about "several Extras"
in RRAP suggesting that anything less than an Extra Class is "a
problem".

That's right.

The story relates the telling of some club some time ago wherein
some other group of people may have acted stupidly.

That depends on the definition of "stupid".

You have yet to quote Brian (W3RV), Hans, Jim, the other Jim, or
myself, among others, as having said anything close to "what's
his problem" over not being an Extra class licensee.

Let's clear this up.

The club referred to above is a special-interest amateur radio
organization, not a general-purpose club. Their focus is HF contesting
and DXing, setting up stations to do those things better, and not
much else. They don't do domestic contests or QSO parties; they focus
on the big stuff. Their members are highly competitive, and
progressive. (Example: They were among the very first to have
computers in their hamshacks).

In pursuit of the club goals, an Extra class license is pretty much a
necessity, because the DX is often in those subbands. That's just the
way it is.

So the fact that somebody without an Extra would even apply for
membership and expect to be taken as a serious DXer/contester by that
bunch indicates a problem someplace.

The "what's his problem" reaction above happened a relatively short
time ago, not the 1960s, so the code test wasn't the issue at all.

Is that an "elitist" situation? Maybe - but that club is an elite
group. Their accomplishments in their chosen field tell the tale.

73 de Jim, N2EY

I don't know Jim. I know I guy who is on the DXCC Honor Roll and is only a
General. I'm an Extra and I don't even have my basic DXCC. I could see the
same might apply to contesting too.

Alun, even Heil had that attitude about my DXing on the 10M SSB
"kiddie band."

Welp, the contacts were valid regardless of his attitude.

There's just something wrong with with some of these Extra's.

As far as contesting goes, even the heavy hitters come looking for the
little pistols late in the game trying to run up the contact #'s. I
guess I made a bad assumption thinking that everyone who wanted a part
could have a part.

Elitism at it's worst, but I already knew it about these guys.