Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Isn't bullemia a cow with a nutrition problem?


It would be a cow with no sex life.

Sort of what happens to those who get off on fantasy dreams of
hobbies being much more than hobbies...a vital need to the nation,
etc.

Go with the "creshendo" of noble, self-glorifying elevation of a fun
hobby into something god-like in its majesty. ["creshendo -
menudo without the guts" i.e., tripe ]

So...have those "hobbyists on ice" settled their strike yet? :-)

Not even close. The owners say they are losing less money the way
things are now. I believe them.

DOn't know if you watch hockey or follow it at all, but with the advent
of widespread use of the neutral zone trap defense, coupled with the
referees tolerating large scale clutching and grabbing, the NHL game has
become more boring than soccer. Almost completely defense, and the only
scoring comes from mistakes.

Here is some hockey trivia. Last season, one of the Stanley cup final
games was outdrawn by an episode of Spongebob Squarepants, the bizzarre
cartoon. The NHL game is so boring that they have to change it, or they
might as well close shop. NO one is watching.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


The phrase I object to is "*just* a hobby" - which denies the components of
public service, education, etc.

Correct. Calling it Just a hobby is like calling Nascar racing "just a
bunch of people in cars. Self illuminated ignorance.


Tsk, tsk. Calling a PROFESSIONAL SPORT like NASCAR a
"hobby" is like saying the Toronto Mapel Leafs are "just a bunch
of skaters playing on ice."

Umm, I wasn't calling it a hobby. The comparison was about mistaken
assumptions. Hams do approach the ARS as a hobby. NASCAR is a bunch of
people in cars. But they are both a lot more.


Does ham radio go on strike? :-)
[I could say "puck you" but that would elicit terrible gasps from
the rever-end and the prussian schoolmaster...:-) ]

Oh dear!

NASCAR vehicles go faster on land than a certain CAP ace does
in his lil two-seater (as "pilot in command") in the air.

?

So...ham radio is a noble service to the people NOT IN ham radio?
It is of vital need of the nation? It "educates" the masses on the
theory and techniques of radio? Ham radio survives all disasters
when all the infrastructure (commercial, professional built) "fails?"

Why you waste those diatribes on me is one of lifes littel mysteries... 8^)

Go for it. Fantasyland is without limits.

That is in Lancaster PA if I'm not mistaken.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Len Over 21 wrote:

NASCAR vehicles go faster on land than a certain CAP ace does
in his lil two-seater (as "pilot in command") in the air.

....not generally in the vertical plane.

Dave K8MN

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

"Bringing up old postings again and again is just a mental form
of bullemia."

"Old-maid Jim is still into Googling bullemia syndrome..."

Leonard, with due respect to your claimed professionalism as a writer,
among other things, do you mean "bulimia"? :-) :-) :-)

Your output is largely bull. Ergo, the new way to spell a word for
your barfing. No problem.

I always love watching you trying to tap dance your way out of an error.
You have many errors and you spend a lot of time tap dancing.

See ya, "Atila".

Dave K8MN

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
.com...
Alun wrote in message
...
(Brian Kelly) wrote in

I bought him a copy of the ARRL primer on
ham radio, a copy of Passport and I need to dredge up a half-decent
rcvr for cheap, toss some wire up and I'll see what happens.

Christmas is coming, do it soon!

Just don't get him some "worldband" POJ.

. . . groan . . I am not a newbie to HF radios . . .

So what are ya gonna get him?

He might actually enjoy an older receiver (!) simply because it's
different and not like everything else in RatShack. He sounds like the
kind of kid who may be specifically attracted to the uniqueness of HF
radio.

Twelve-year-olds have two new hot buttons per day on average and I
learned a long time ago to be very selective about financing those hot
buttons. I'll *loan* him my TS-50 for awhile and see where he takes
it.

oh dear....

Hams still do *public service* comms (covers emergency comms and more)
and also "advance the state of the art" in some ways. But that view is
way too limited.

The HF spectrum is a
protected and regulated natural resource

*THAT* is the hard sell to the antiscience folks. It's clear from the
comments of BPL folks that they just don't understand HF radio.

The "BPL folks" understood quite well what HF radio is all about going
into the brawl.

I don't think so.

They set us up like ducks at a boardwalk shooting
gallery which meshed beautifully with the agenda of the current
"antiscience" leadership at the FCC and up.

How?

Their main game was how we supposedly all need broadband interent access so
much that polluting the spectrum is the only way to get it. As if DSL, cable
and other methods won't reach enough people soon enough.

Point 2: The coming of BPL is exactly analogous to the timber
companies clear-cutting anywhere they choose to do so. We're now in a
position to get clear-cut ourselves, that's WRONG and it's coming from
the same bunch of politicians who have the worst environmental record
and big-biz "connections" in recent times. The environmentalists have
beaten back the timber companies by leaning on the politicians and the
courts and now it's our turn.

Yup. And it's not just timber companies; all sorts of commercial
interests want to "develop" the "wilderness". Remember Storm King.

No. What matters is *now*, as in drilling in the wilderness preserves
in Alaska.

Good point. The fact that better technologies exist doesn't matter.

Brian, you're right!

The issue is not that we are relevant or up to date. We're not.

I disagree!

We *are* relevant, simply because we are "the public"! And we are as
"up to date" as we need to be.

Agreed here. Sort of.

There should be a place for folks to enjoy radio for its own sake. As
its own justification. That does *not* mean there should be no rules
or standards, however.

Yup.

CB and FRS are parts of the same thing,

Not really.

Those services are meant for specific comms purposes. That's why
they're channelized, used only approved equipment (in theory anyway)
and are restricted in other ways (you're not going to work the world
on FRS or CB).

I realize that we're all "bred" to diss the CBers but when it comes to
passing real emergency traffic to the authorities over the years they
have us beat by probably a couple orders of magnitude.

Maybe. So do cell phones in far less time.

Point is, they're not meant to be "radio for its own sake".

As far as
"working the world" is concerned there was a local CBer here (recent
SK) who worked all 22 Swiss cantons which I have yet to pull off for
the Helvitia 22 award and the sucker had the cards to prove it. All of
it with a big quad and a perfectly legal 10W type-accepted CB ssb
xcvr. Yeah, I know, his DXing wasn't legal. Neither are Henry 3K amps
and pairs of 4-1000As with their plate meter needles pinned to the
right side.

If somebody has to break the rules to do it, I'm not impressed.

I agree with Alun, all not-for-profit personal comms bands need to
fall under the same basic protective umbrella or we'll wind up in a
divide & conquer maneuver.

FRS and cb aren't protected either.

First off, amateur radio is more than "just a hobby" because of the
public service comms, technical innovation, and educational angles. We
must not lose those things - we're adding, not subtracting.

That's EXACTLY the kind of entrenched 'wayback thinking which needs to
put behind us because most of it's BS.

No, it's not. Just because amateur radio isn't part of every emergency and
public service operation doesn't mean there's no contribution.

Second, although millions of acres are preserved as parks in the USA,
the total percentage of area in that system isn't very large, compared
to how big the USA is. If we try to sell ham radio on the park idea
alone, we might find ourselves with a tiny percentage of the spectrum
we now have.

There wouldn't be any need to do that sort of number-juggling, just
edit the opening paragraphs of Part 97 and leave details like the band
edges alone.

That's a plan.

Recreational technology usually doesn't exactly compare to commercial
or military technology. Sailing ships are all but gone from the
commercial shipping and fishing venues,

Try commercial crabbing in the Chesapeake Bay with a power boat . .

The exception that proves the rule. As I wrote: "All but gone". There are still
some specialized uses. IIRC, the USN and USCG each have at least one sailing
ship still on their rosters.

Which has no bearing on what recreational boaters do.

UPRR has two steam locomotives in operational condition, too - they even fire
'em up every year or two.

and from the world's navies as
well. But they are all over the place in recreation.
. . . .

Here's another concept to add to the pie - sports. Look at the London,
Boston and New York City marathons (just to name three) - they involve
the use of public facilities (roads) for a use that is basically
recreational for 99+% of the participants. Some folks would rather
that all those marathoners just run on treadmills rather than tying up
traffic for a day. Radiosport is a big part of amateur radio.

Now - how do we sell that package?

The usual. Get the ARRL to support it and petition the FCC for an
NPRM.

Another good idea.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,

(N2EY) writes:

In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...

The parks argument is a good one. The spectum is a natural resource
like

the forest and the shoreline, and like those it shouldn't be for
business
use only.

Thank you for saying that, Alun. Sincere thanks.

About six years ago (or so) in here I tried to point out that there
is
a
good analogue between the hobby of amateur radio and the national
park service. The U.S. Park Service has a million acres (give or
take)
which is reserved for ALL the citizenry to enjoy for their
recreation.

You did?

Google up the post for us, please, Len. Your experience in computer-modem
communications should make that an easy task for you.

Old-maid Jim is still into Googling bullemia syndrome, still trying to
argue old, old postings all over again. And again. And again. :-)

It is "bulimia", Len. Master the word and make it your own. :-)

And all you want to do is tap dance out of this mess of your own
creation.

While I can still manage a time-step or two, this isn't a stage
and you are not the audience...but you are rather the usher
self-important and with a small flashlight, the one who keeps
getting gum on his shoe soles.

Actually, in the theater which is life, this is a stage and everyone who
reads one of your posts is an audience. Sometimes the audience
applaudes.
Sometimes it throws tomatoes. Your latest attempts at claiming the idea
of another as your own leave you covered in tomato sauce.

You can't admit that a number of hams are involved in the public service
aspects of amateur radio?

NOT near enough to qualify for the self-glorifying political definitions
in Part 97...and certainly not from the implied greatness and nobility
written up by the league.

Piffle! Any implied greatness and nobility comes from your "little man"
inferiority complex. Part 97 says what it says. Feel free to take that
issue directly to the FCC. I'm sure they'll accept your input, even if
they don't act on it. The fact is, you just don't know much about it,
do you?

Three earthquakes, not just one. :-)

But it is a matter of public record that radio amateurs participated.
Names and calls have been published. How do you account for that?

ARRL does the "publishing." Mass media it is NOT.

I didn't write anything about the League being mass media, though by
definition, QST fits the definition. It is read by a couple of hundred
thousand people. There are city newspapers with a smaller circulation.

There are articles in newspapers and magazines about the public service
aspect of amateur radio. We have two local stations in this area. One
or both generally have a feature story at least once yearly in their
newscasts about radio amateurs in Field Day or radio amateurs in flood
work or radio amateurs assisting in a search for a missing person.

Wire services have "published" all that? I think NOT. Broadcast
TV news "published" all that? I think NOT.

You might think, but you don't know.

Being "published" in the weekly Podunk Hollow 6-pager might
satisfy legal necessities of "publishing" but the citizenry still
doesn't know about amateur radio in detail.

So having something published in a smaller newspaper doesn't meet your
personal definition. Boy, life's tough, isn't it?

Tsk. I was out there, not just "watching TV." Didn't see any "ham
emergency" crews at the disaster centers. Maybe they were all
home using CW on their rigs? [ "CW gets through when nothing else
will...even without electrical power!" ]

To make this clear for us, you were actually at the involved disaster
centers, Len? All of 'em? So you know for a fact that no radio
amateurs were involved in these earthquakes?

I've been to more of them than you. :-)

That wasn't the question. :-)

Do I know "for a fact" there were no amateurs involved? No, because
I don't read QST to find out.

I accept your "no" but not for the reason stated.

I was THERE. Nobody wearing a ham
HT on their belt, nobody with a little callsign pin on, no mobiles
parked.

You were WHERE?

Just the regular emergency workers plus the FEMA fly-away
terminal showing TV with notes posted from anxious relatives.

....as far as you knew.

I've seen no government nor NASA reports stating, "No radio amateurs
were involved".

I've seen no government nor NASA reports stating, "Radio amateurs
were involved." If you've seen such a statement, provide the source
so that Newington can be better educated.

Why, I believe I'll do that, Leonard. Meanwhile you can brush up on
events by looking at the stories at the following urls:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077583/

http://www.issfanclub.com/modules.ph...rticle&sid=446

http://people.smu.edu/arc/shuttle.html

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...003/0001886975

http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/...eon062603.html

http://www.prnewswire.com/gh/cnoc/comp/683158.html

http://www.w4zt.com/paulharvey.html

http://seti.sentry.net/archive/publi.../Feb/0017.html

http://strand.sfasu.edu/shuttle/spshuttlenews.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/0...prj.colu.wrap/


There are plenty of good citizens. Not all of them are equipped to to
what radio amateurs did in this case. Why the dodge?

"Dodge?" No Dodge, dude. Wife and I drive our Chevrolet.

"dodge".

Gosh, "Dave," I've seen no government nor NASA reports that
ONLY hams are "good citizens" or that they were "the only ones
equipped (with ham radio) to do the shuttle debris searching!

Gee-willikers, Len, I wrote nothing about hams being the ONLY good
citizens. I can say with a degree of confidence that hams were the only
ones equipped (with ham radio).

Was that in some sensitive (secret) government report that ONLY
ex-State people were cleared to read?

Was what?

Pretending that amateur radio is "vital" is a lot of POLITICAL
bull**** and you know it.

What does it take for something to be "vital", Len?

Constant reading and listening to the ARRL. :-)

Whatsa matter? You couldn't think of an answer?

That WAS the ANSWER, "Dave."

Can't be, Len. You don't read QST or listen to the ARRL.

The league is constantly self-
glorifying itself and always depicts amateur radio as a vital necessity,
etc., etc., etc.

Massive sour grapes on your part. Live with it.

Kellie wanna practice mental bullemia and barf up old postings.

Len, one time is a mistake. The word is "bulimia".

"Dave," your word is BULL.

I don't have a word. The word you misspelled quite a number of times is
"bulimia".


That's NOT "weaseling out." That's just plain nuts, morseman.

You just can't bring yourself to admit that the idea belonged to
another, can you?

I have plenty of analogues and admire those who are original, such
as the comparison of the park system to setting aside spectrum
for hobbyist activities.

Yes, you admired the individual with the original idea so much that you
decided to claim it as your own.

YOU continually overlook the subject (the analogue) in a poor
effort to attempt humiliation and defamation of a single poster as
"your argument." That is faulty...but you seem to think you have
NO faults.

It is really difficult to stay on the subject, regardless of what it
might be, for your fairly frequent errors and the inevitable newsgroup
drift.

The volume of your material in an attempted defense of the indefensible,
says otherwise. You care.

Tsk. I can't possibly "care."

Yes, you care that you've been discovered claiming credit for taking the
ideas of another and claiming them for your own.

You said (repeatedly) I am "not involved."

I've said all along that you aren't involved in amateur radio. You're
certainly involved in a falsehood though.

That's quite a rant, Leonard. There's a running QST item most months
which is called "Media Hits". What kind of items do you think it
highlights?

Some squib in the Podunk Valley Hollow weekly 6-pager?
A Mike Douglas TV show item? :-)

Mike Douglas? Gee, you know as much about television as you do of Paul
Newman movies. :-)

Sorry, but the ARRL has been ineffective on getting mass media
exposure to amateur radio for years...a whole half-century worth.
The best it can hope for in "media hits" is to have CQ quote from
the league website on something. All that stays INSIDE the ham
media, doesn't venture OUTSIDE to where the politicians and the
rest of the citizenry see news and events.

Check out the urls I posted above. It looks like another case of Len
Anderson not knowing what he's talking about.

Some hams, like yourself, want to stay insular to keep your
brainwashing clean and intact with old ideas. That way you can
freely fantasize on how "vital, unique, and resourceful" you all
are (along with pipe dreams of heroism, saving the day, etc.) in
some weird rationalization of "justifying" your hobby. You DO do
that and get very angry when you don't get high-fives for your
fantasyworld accomplishments.

What in the world are you going on about?

Your worry, not mine. "I'm not
involved." :-)

Whaddya know! You got something right. :-)

Dave K8MN

(Hans K0HB) wrote in message . com...
(Brian Kelly) wrote

How, exactly, would that work Hans?

"Exactly" I can't give you (but you knew that anyhow).

Ratz: Caught again . . .

What I can give you is the proven notion that rewarding a certain sort
of behaviour reinforces that behaviour.

Agreed. End.

73, de Hans, K0HB

w3rv

N2EY wrote:
In article . net, "KØHB"
writes:


I believe that ARRL is wasting our money
trying to be a political force,


I disagree, Hans. Without some political action, ham radio will simply be
legislated out of existence - eventually.

We haven't gotten everyhting we wanted in the BPL fight. Neither did the BPL
folks get everything *they* wanted.


and (MORE IMPORTANTLY) that I think that
the same money would be better spent on efforts which renewed the
Amateur Radio reputation for technical innovation.


Why can't there be money to do both?

More important:

What, exactly, should we hams be doing to renew that reputation?


Funny you should ask!

I have started to put together a "Near Space Science" group. I made
initial calls for interest a few months ago, and made my pitch at our
club meeting this week.

The response was excellent, both at the meeting and afterward in
private. At the moment it looks like we are going to make this happen.

The likely scenario is that we will be working with local schools and
other interested parties as well as among fellow Hams to launch
experiments - both ARS and Educational - to the shores of space at
around 100,000 feet above the earth, and then return them safely.

This is a ripe field for experimentation and innovation. There are
groups that are already doing this, and I see many innovations to be
made, and improvements in technique that may be possible.

The efforts are a public relations windfall if they are done correctly.
It is a great way to get our name out in the community, both locally and
nationally.

This can all be accomplished for a surprisingly low cost. It is also a
cross-interest project where people of many different interests and
disciplines can contribute. It isn't just Hams.

Outside of a gvt/university environment, Ham radio is the most
practical way to go. We have licenses, methods, and applicable
frequencies to use.

Don't know if any of you folks in the PA and local area are interested
in getting involved, but if so, we can discuss it here or by private email.

So there you are Jim. A way to innovate, experiment, and have fun at
the same time. Also a great P.R. effort that gets our message out to the
public in a way that they can understand as a "hi-tech" endeavor.

- Mike KB3EIA -

KØHB wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote


Twist? A large part of your post was quoting:



The quotes (of the FCC officials) were selected to point out what the
regulators seem to be expecting of us.


I'll assume that you believe what you posted? (correct me if I'm
wrong)



Yes, I believe that is what those regulators said.


I would hope you would set a good example by taking the lead.



I did take the lead, by trying to point out what seems to be the
prevailing regulatory attitude towards us. I further took the lead by
pointing out that I feel the ARRL ought to shift some of the 'political'
spending into programs which sponsor and nuture an attitude of tinkering
and experimenting among amateurs.



I've posted a project I'm getting started that will go a long way
toward making us look good and helpful and relevant.

Wanna help?


- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:
In article . net, "KØHB"
writes:

I believe that ARRL is wasting our money
trying to be a political force,

I disagree, Hans. Without some political action, ham radio will simply be
legislated out of existence - eventually.

We haven't gotten everyhting we wanted in the BPL fight. Neither did the BPL
folks get everything *they* wanted.

and (MORE IMPORTANTLY) that I think that
the same money would be better spent on efforts which renewed the
Amateur Radio reputation for technical innovation.

Why can't there be money to do both?

More important:

What, exactly, should we hams be doing to renew that reputation?

Funny you should ask!

I have started to put together a "Near Space Science" group. I made
initial calls for interest a few months ago, and made my pitch at our
club meeting this week.

The response was excellent, both at the meeting and afterward in
private. At the moment it looks like we are going to make this happen.

EXCELLENT!

The likely scenario is that we will be working with local schools and
other interested parties as well as among fellow Hams to launch
experiments - both ARS and Educational - to the shores of space at
around 100,000 feet above the earth, and then return them safely.

I presume you're talking about high altitude balloons. 100,000 ft =
about 19 miles

This is a ripe field for experimentation and innovation. There are
groups that are already doing this, and I see many innovations to be
made, and improvements in technique that may be possible.

Let's see...radio, power, position reporting, remote control,
tracking, launch, recovery...

The efforts are a public relations windfall if they are done correctly.
It is a great way to get our name out in the community, both locally and
nationally.

Yep.

This can all be accomplished for a surprisingly low cost. It is also a
cross-interest project where people of many different interests and
disciplines can contribute. It isn't just Hams.

Agreed!

Outside of a gvt/university environment, Ham radio is the most
practical way to go.

Perhaps it could be done in cooperation with a university. A wide
range of talents are needed to make such a project actually happen.
For example: what permits are needed to legally launch a package
weighing, say, 10 pounds?

We have licenses, methods, and applicable
frequencies to use.

An important feature of the idea is that actually putting together a
project would involve a lot of ingenuity and adaptation. For example,
it occurs to me that it would be really neat to send aloft a GPS
receiver as part of the package, which would then transmit the
package's location to trackers below. Sample problem: how do we
interface a GPS receiver to the transmitter system to do that?

The end result might be called a "kluge" by some naysayers, but all
that really matters is gettting the job done.

Don't know if any of you folks in the PA and local area are interested
in getting involved, but if so, we can discuss it here or by private email.

Not to be a wet blanket, *but*...

Here in the Philly metro area and other similar places, the question
of coordination with air traffic control and the difficulties of
tracking and recovery may preclude such experiments *in this area*.
Still a good idea, though, and there may be nearby areas where such
launches would be practical.

So there you are Jim. A way to innovate, experiment, and have fun at
the same time. Also a great P.R. effort that gets our message out to the
public in a way that they can understand as a "hi-tech" endeavor.

I *like* it!

More important, it's exactly the sort of "PBI" thing Hans was talking
about.

And how about this:

In order to make tracking, telemetry, and recovery easier, the
instrument package could send periodic transmissions in Morse Code so
that no special ground equipment would be needed for many functions.
Any ham with a receiver for the band in question (and a little skill)
could listen for the package, collect data, and send in reports.

73 de Jim, N2EY