Len:

That "vampire/sunshine" thing, that is good, can we use that in that
others guy movie with John Wayne? grin

I picture a bunch of amateurs in coffins with transceivers, and
suddenly a young man shows up ripping coffins wide open, at high noon,
by the OK Corral!!!

John

wrote in message
ups.com...
From: "John Smith" on Sun 3 Jul 2005 21:06

Len:

I finally figured out why they truly hate you here!

You are getting there, sort of...it's actually deeper than that.

You have made a statement that cw is ridiculous and protested by
never
getting an amateur license--now there are tens of thousands or even
hundreds of thousands who have joined you--I see them everyday--they
refuse to get a license because of the code...

See the classical reducto ad absurdum response of Hans Brakob.
:-)

Most of the commentary by the "regulars" (nearly all Pro-Code
Test Advocates (PCTA) amateur extras is predictable and worded
in the classical "league-speak" that has washed their brains.

They are few and NONE of the are, in any way, "representative"
of the "amateur community" despite what they exclaim. NONE of
them (Brakob included) accept any contrary commentary and each
feels that their tight clique must remain sound...regardless...

The "reply" that is a classic reduction-to-the-absurd of Brakob
is just one style of highly-negative response to "outsiders"
(those who do not think as the clique does). Heil stresses
the "personal involvement" as if he is a moral arbiter of all
but that is his only remaining retort and the glass of the retort
is cracked. Miccolis is firmly entrenched into a mindset of
amateur radio of days prior to his existance...a condition
that may have been caused by way too much rereading of ancient
copies of QST enshrined in his basement. Kelly is basically a
blustering Philly Tuff Guy who don' take nuttin from nobody!
Flint is one of the truer products of league pre-conditioning
("brainwashed" in familiar terms) but, to her credit, defends
the Newington barricades vigorously. Robeson is the emotional
wreckage of an exploded loose cannon littering the imaginary
battlefield. Jeswald ("Dan/W4NTI" who apparently changed
his surname) acts the southern-fried good-ole-boy and is little
more than a braggart, nasty when drunk.

There have been others, but the above coterie (perhaps 'cotillion'
of ancient debutantes/dilettants) makes up the "representative"
body in here. Each is a Special Interest Group of One. They
purport to be the "Voice of Amateur Radio" yet all speak
solely for their own particular desires and each holds to an
intimation that they are the proper role model for others.
["all must do as they did to be as good as they"]

Thousands of others interested in radio have come on various
scenes before I did. THEY are the ones that pushed forward for
the no-code-test Technician Class license creation. Such was
created. The God-fearing morsemen all sounded the Hue and Cry
with the "death of amateur radio (without the beloved code test
to show the "dedication and committment to the amateur
community")" on their lips. At present, the "lesser-class"
licensees in U.S. amateur radio (Technicians) amount to 48.43%
of all individual licenses as of 2 Jul 05. That was achieved
in a scant 14 years. Had the Technician classes not existed,
U.S. amateur radio licensees would have shrunk to less than
60% of its current size now. The intrinsic appeal of morse
code ("try it you'll like it!") is nebulous, more vapor than
substance.

Amateur radio - as the olde-fahrts knew it - IS beginning to
shrink. Without change, it WILL die out...but after the olde-
fahrts do. The olde-fahrts are Holding Back The Dawn, fearing
the sunshine of new ideas like vampires trembling at sunrise.
At best, their "new ideas" exist in the "new band" trials at
600 meters...the old 500 KHz maritime distress and safety
frequency that was. "CW" of course. All is morsemanship in
the ARS (Archaic Radiotelegraph Society)...that "cutting edge
mode" exemplifying "keeping up with the state of the art."
"Bang the Carrier Slowly" would be an alternate title.

... that is why they hate you, you were a man before your time my
friend!

Not really. I disturb their self-image of expertise and
elitism. I challenge their brags with some experience in HF
and VHF and UHF and microwaves communications. That is the
breaking of illusions they harbor, a sort of mental
Krystalnacht of theirs and they feel persecuted, seek
vengence and retribution for disturbing their fantasies of
glory, honor, and nobility. [I pop their balloons]

Others have been the pioneers of NCTA-ism. They were before me.
They deserve the credit, not me. I'm simply outspoken and on
the other side of them. They can't handle it...the league
hasn't instructed them on how to handle such humans...they
revert to middle school taunts, acting like middle-aged
children. Tsk, tsk. :-)

And, your protest is being voiced by a strong majority today.

The PCTA hear not. The olde-fahrts holding back the dawn
hear not. They will resist until the last code key is pried
from their cold, dead fingers. They WERE "operators."

From: K0HB on Jul 4, 3:58 pm

wrote

The "reply" that is a classic reduction-to-the-absurd of Brakob
is just one style ....

In your case, Anderson, "reduction" isn't required.

Ah, but that is EXACTLY what you did with those "billions and
billions" "statements!"

YOU thought they were "required!" :-)


bit bit

From: Dee Flint on Jul 4, 3:13 pm

"John Smith" wrote in message

Len:

I finally figured out why they truly hate you here!

No one hates him but everyone gets tired of his derogatory remarks and
antiquated stories.

Antiquated Stories and Deragatory Remarks:

1. Hiram goes to Washington in 1918 to save ham radio's future!

2. Hams "pioneer SW [HF] bands" after 1923.

3. Saipan is "saved" by hams loading up a fence!

4. AM broadcasting is begun in 1906 (by a carbon mike in the
antenna lead to "modulate" it...the technique for all
subsequent AM broadcasters!).

5. "CW gets through when nothing else will!" (from 1930s)

6. "Putz! "Technician!" etc. (from loose-cannon Robeson)


You have made a statement that cw is ridiculous and protested by never
getting an amateur license--now there are tens of thousands or even
hundreds of thousands who have joined you--I see them everyday--they
refuse to get a license because of the code...

I cannot believe that you have polled tens of thousands or hundreds of
thousands about getting a license. Most of those people don't even know
amateur radio exists let alone its requiements.

YOU have "polled all those people" to PROVE they "don't even know
amateur radio exists?" We didn't know that! :-)

Most of us think it is silly to cut off your nose to spite your face. And
most of us know it is far more effective to attempt changes from the inside
rather than remaining on the outside and looking in.

Tsk, tsk. Amateur radio is only ONE "window" to the EM spectrum.
A rather small one at that. I've been looking through "windows"
(plural), lots of them, bigger ones, for the last half century.
From the "inside." :-)

Might I suggest you WASH your little "window?" It would make it
far easier for others to see into that small room called ham
radio. Then again, you might NOT want "outsiders" to look in. :-)

... that is why they hate you, you were a man before your time my friend!
And, your protest is being voiced by a strong majority today.

Again no one hates him but simply will not tolerate his derogatory comments.
The moment that someone disagrees with him, he starts in on that approach
and continues in that vein despite the fact that some of us have persisted
in remaining polite and not calling him names.

All that "politeness" and "non" name-calling by all of you "us"
is archived in Google. :-)

"Horrid!" isn't it? :-) [your word, not mine...]

Some of us finally have refused to feed the troll and do not respond to his
posts.

Ah! "Politeness!" Those you do not like are called "trolls!"

:-) Hypocrisy is your handmaiden...

Tsk, for someone who "does not respond," there seems a rather
strong, lengthy, and "antiquated" RESPONSE! :-)

bit bit

From: Dee Flint on Jul 4, 3:40 pm


"John Smith" wrote in message

Dee:

Frankly I am surprised you are so offended over his "derogatory remarks",
you all seem so asleep to the real world that short of striking you over
the head with a two-by-four you will remain in this dream-like state.
Positive is not always good, except to "new agers" studying mysticism and
crystals, and I have no time for silliness...

If offended by reality one can always change reality or change
themselves--I have always found the latter more productive.

He (Len) battles a whole klick of you which are functioning like a damn
support group--and you don't let little things like reality, "real world",
sanity and facts get in your way. You all begin your chants of known
mantras and chase the light-weights away!

You all exist in an echo chamber using the echo of your own words as
"valid arguments", or to site "majority agreements."


To be effective in the real world, one does not insult people with
derogatory remarks.

...except in computer-modem communications! :-)

In my profession, I frequently have to convince people
that the new is better than the old.

Hello? What "profession" is that? :-)

I've only been in the electronics profession for...um...53 years
now. Life Member in the IEEE, an international professional
association. Guess that doesn't count, does it? :-)

Is this newsgroup participation a "profession?"

Insults and put downs would get me
thrown out the door and cost me a job. It doesn't get a whole lot more real
than that.

Oh, I think that 53 years of actual professional participation
might agree with you...and also disagree with you. Have you ever
been on both sides of a Design Review meeting? :-)

It takes tact along with accurate and verifiable data to implement new
proposals.

...which doesn't apply to REMOVING an ancient test element for
a radio hobby license. :-)

Where is the "tact" and "accurate and verifiable data" to support
the subjective claims, necessities, nobilities, expertise of
morsemanship for a radio hobby? Ain't there, is it? :-)

The cutting edge people in the real world know this although it
may come as a shock to those in academia.

...which means what? Morsemanship is "cutting edge" comms? :-)

[put the cover back on your jar of academia nuts]

Len does not use tact and does not present accurate and verifiable data.

Tsk. I've used hundreds of tacts to nail your morsemanship to
the carpet and you still think that carpet will fly! :-)

I'd best re-do my PowerPoint files, then?

I'd use Vu-Graphs but your projector's bulb is burned out...

bit bit

Dee Flint wrote:
"John Smith" wrote in message
...
KXHB:

Go ask the college and high school students in the EE fields why they do
not obtain amateur licenses.

I have asked, it is the code which they cite at least 90% of the time.
However, you guys don't care, and will go on speaking like that is not
true. Put your butt in a car, drive over to your local college and have a
chat with an electronics engineer professor there and the students--then
perhaps you will realize we who know are looking at you like some crazed
manic reciting a ridiculous mantra about code not being a hindrance and
the real reason amateur radio is dying...

John


Since all the "new action" is VHF and higher and that doesn't require a code
license, code should be no detriment. Or is some one fibbing to them either
directly or by omission so that they do not know about the codeless
Technician license.

One the NoCode status of the tech license is not that well known.
Indeed until 26 day before I had my license I did not know of the no
Code license, this aas after year of the no code licesne

Two lots of folks (lets leave it vauage) go on and and on about how you
can't do anything with the tech licesne

Three VHF is hardly where the New action is Microwves


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

KØHB wrote:
"John Smith" wrote


However, you guys don't care, and will go on speaking like that is not true.
Put your butt in a car, drive over to your local college and have a chat with
an electronics engineer professor there and the students--then perhaps you
will realize we who know are looking at you like some crazed manic reciting a
ridiculous mantra about code not being a hindrance and the real reason amateur
radio is dying...


John,

You're new around here, so I'll bring you up to date. I am a long time member
of NCI, and I do not support continuation of the Morse test, so spare your
jeremiads about "you guys don't care" for someone else.

Since we're all having a heart to hear here....

I guess I should note that I do not use Morse code (even though I
support the testing) at all.

So much for typecasting at least you and me, eh?

I guess I might also note that I make my coin in digital imagery. We
would love it if a person came up with a method of transferring decent
size, decent fidelity pictures in reasonable amount of time using a
small bandwidth. At HF frequencies.....


Having said that, your characterization of Len as a "man before his time" is the
most laughable miscasting since someone suggested John Wayne play the part of a
queer hairdessser in a movie about the old west.

But it makes for interesting reading 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:

wrote:


How we be gonna scale those pictures and live video to fit into 2.5 KHz?


Two steps:

1) Convert the pictures and video into highly-compressed digital
formats for transmission.

Oooh, there could be a problem there! There are limits to the
compression, and we have exceeded them in some forms already. Check to
see how many vertical pans there are on video signals lately. The
compression on the digital signals (note that even if you are getting
your feed via analog cable, you are still almost certainly looking at a
digital signal) already calls for some major aliasing.

There are limits, and there are limits. How much more are we going to
throw away?


2) Use different modes/modulations/protocols

Shannon's Theorem tells us that we can get very high data rates through
very narrow bandwidths *if* we have adequate signal-to-noise ratio.
Note that "noise" takes many forms, not just the thermal noise we're
used to.

What're we going to do when the data rate that we need is darn near(or
above) frequency in use?


For example, PSK has an advantage over OOK when dealing with thermal
noise. But when dealing with other types of noise, OOK can have an
advantage. It all depends on the transmission medium. What works on a
telephone line may not work on an HF path of the same apparent
bandwidth.


I thought that we were going to be able to send live video
and digital images on HF?


You can do that now - just need enough S/N.

Always?


Simply by hooking our computers to our rigs via the
proper interfaces.


And software.

I really didn't think it was all that simple. Why don't we get together
and pop off a live video system for say the 160 meter band. The video
would be real time, 30 fps, and otherwise like broadcast video. Better
yet, Why don't we do it at computer resolution?


Now it seems that the *idea* is that we are going to use
DRM, and we're
going to need to get more spectrum in which to use.


There are all sorts of solutions. But there's a world of
difference between people talking theory and actual
application.

I did hear that DRM was capable of doing imagery. I couldn't find any
examples tho'. And they were very vague about it.

Most of all, some folks confuse the journey and the destination.

The journey beats all.....


Does complex and newer equal better?

Sometimes. Not always.

Is analog simpler than digital?

Sometimes!

Does having a computer that attaches to the Internet
make a person a digital expert?


Some folks think so! I don't. And besides - "digital expert" doesn't
mean someone knows much about radio.

Ain't that the truff?


I ask for enlightenment, I get invective.

Are you surprised?

Nope. It doesn't make for a very good discussion tho'.

Appears to be what there is to offer.


Now consider how effective such a person would
be trying to sell amateur radio - with or
without a code test.

They might attract others of their ilk.

I'll bet they like some of the "wonder antennas" that keep cropping up...

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike:

Oh no. Now someone is going to have to explain ccd cams and pixels to
you, huh? Take a course!

The short course goes, "a pixel either relates to a byte, a word (16
bits) or a double-word (32-bits, or larger)--you grab the pixels from
the cam (bytes, words, etc)--you compress them, you send them, the guy
at the other end uncompress them, sends them to his video card and
views them...

Geesh, are you guys all setting around the same computer in some old
age home?

If you even mention old analog cams from some Smithsonian the guys in
the white coats will be here!

John

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:

wrote:


How we be gonna scale those pictures and live video to fit into
2.5 KHz?


Two steps:

1) Convert the pictures and video into highly-compressed digital
formats for transmission.

Oooh, there could be a problem there! There are limits to the
compression, and we have exceeded them in some forms already. Check
to see how many vertical pans there are on video signals lately. The
compression on the digital signals (note that even if you are
getting your feed via analog cable, you are still almost certainly
looking at a digital signal) already calls for some major aliasing.

There are limits, and there are limits. How much more are we going
to throw away?


2) Use different modes/modulations/protocols

Shannon's Theorem tells us that we can get very high data rates
through
very narrow bandwidths *if* we have adequate signal-to-noise ratio.
Note that "noise" takes many forms, not just the thermal noise
we're
used to.

What're we going to do when the data rate that we need is darn
near(or above) frequency in use?


For example, PSK has an advantage over OOK when dealing with
thermal
noise. But when dealing with other types of noise, OOK can have an
advantage. It all depends on the transmission medium. What works on
a
telephone line may not work on an HF path of the same apparent
bandwidth.


I thought that we were going to be able to send live video
and digital images on HF?


You can do that now - just need enough S/N.

Always?


Simply by hooking our computers to our rigs via the
proper interfaces.


And software.

I really didn't think it was all that simple. Why don't we get
together and pop off a live video system for say the 160 meter band.
The video would be real time, 30 fps, and otherwise like broadcast
video. Better yet, Why don't we do it at computer resolution?


Now it seems that the *idea* is that we are going to use
DRM, and we're
going to need to get more spectrum in which to use.


There are all sorts of solutions. But there's a world of
difference between people talking theory and actual
application.

I did hear that DRM was capable of doing imagery. I couldn't find
any examples tho'. And they were very vague about it.

Most of all, some folks confuse the journey and the destination.

The journey beats all.....


Does complex and newer equal better?
Sometimes. Not always.

Is analog simpler than digital?
Sometimes!

Does having a computer that attaches to the Internet
make a person a digital expert?


Some folks think so! I don't. And besides - "digital expert"
doesn't
mean someone knows much about radio.

Ain't that the truff?


I ask for enlightenment, I get invective.
Are you surprised?

Nope. It doesn't make for a very good discussion tho'.

Appears to be what there is to offer.


Now consider how effective such a person would
be trying to sell amateur radio - with or
without a code test.

They might attract others of their ilk.

I'll bet they like some of the "wonder antennas" that keep cropping
up...

- Mike KB3EIA -

From: John Smith on Jul 4, 4:26 pm

Len:

Lighten up, I think he has real potential as a comedian and/or movie
director! And, I am only half joking!

I'd pay to watch the movie he suggested, good belly laughs are hard to
come by these days! John Wayne in that role would be perfect to evoke
such!

Okay...such as Erich von Stroheim doing light comedy? :-)

He might even direct Owen Wilson as a heroic action hero!

Maybe a Hardy Boys series? "Hardy Boys go to Newington!"
[starring Jim Nabors and Richard Chamberlain]

It would be more entertaining to watch that true-life
documentary "Independence Day." ["morse code saves Terra!"]

Excuse me, I've got to polish up my PowerPoint presentation
files to meet the requirements of Our Girl Flint.

buy, buy,

bit bit

Len:

Keep a stiff upper lip man, only poor breeding reduces one to name
calling and personal attacks--they seek to include you among their
ill-bred lot.

A little "blood letting" is good for the spirit, just don't take 'em
seriously.

It is a gorilla war here, I will grant you that, some just wear
gorilla suits, others really are.

John

wrote in message
oups.com...
From: John Smith on Jul 4, 4:26 pm

Len:

Lighten up, I think he has real potential as a comedian and/or movie
director! And, I am only half joking!

I'd pay to watch the movie he suggested, good belly laughs are hard
to
come by these days! John Wayne in that role would be perfect to
evoke
such!

Okay...such as Erich von Stroheim doing light comedy? :-)

He might even direct Owen Wilson as a heroic action hero!

Maybe a Hardy Boys series? "Hardy Boys go to Newington!"
[starring Jim Nabors and Richard Chamberlain]

It would be more entertaining to watch that true-life
documentary "Independence Day." ["morse code saves Terra!"]

Excuse me, I've got to polish up my PowerPoint presentation
files to meet the requirements of Our Girl Flint.

buy, buy,

bit bit