K4YZ wrote:
nobodys old friend wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
"an old friend" wrote

bull@@@@ Jim

every movie or account of those days ...........

I don't know what they taught you as a Colonel in the Chemical Corps,=
but I was
there on the blockade line (didn't watch some sensational movie versi=
on) and Jim
speaks truly.

no he doesn't

Yes, he does.

not realy

all the accounts of the matter make clear that we traded without
appearing to trade the obselete jupiter bases

It was HARDLY a "trade". We agreed to remove missles that were
already obsolete and unservicible in return for the Russians
dismantallying bases for "state-of-the-art" nuclear arms only 90 from
home.

it was not a fair trade but at the point it was made it served as a Fig
leaf for the Soveit leader (whose name I not going to try speling on my
own and I am not looking it up)

but made in the face of what could have easily blown apart everything
both sides though was valueble it likely looked pretty to K at the time

Try "Missles of Oct" or "13 days" but I have never seen any historical
or fictionalized account of those days that does not deal with that
trade

and assuming you were on the blockade line (I don't know but will give
you the benifit of the doubt) that would be the last place to learn of
such things

"benefit"

The benefit is not yours to give.

sure is

but then you don't respect any view but your own

it was kept quiet for a time ( a few years) but I have known of the
Jupiters and their trade off since I was 4 or 5 years old or put
another way Under president Nixon in effect the next presidental term
to follow JFK, the event happened before I was born but I learn ed of
the crisis and the trade off at the same time in my youth

Hey Mr Rocket Scientist... The Nixon Presidency was NOT the next
administration for follow JFK.

it was the next eletced one the next presidential TERM as I said


And nice try about the "...but I have known..." line. Cute...Not
true, but cute!

entirely true

USA Chemical corps never mentions the misslis of OCT or the cuban
missle crisis at all in training

"missles" "Cuban"

Perhaps because you were never in the "USA Chemical corps", Mr
Pathological Liar. Or have they "reactivated" your "commission" so you
can justify lying in public again...?!?!

neither stevie but such is not needed

=20
Steve, K4YZ

K4YZ wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
"nobodys old friend" wrote

not at all no one living in the times knows
what was happening ....
....History can never be truly known till at
al least 50 years after the fact

What a humorous crock of ****! It isn't history when it's happening. =
It's real
life.

Admiral Anderson had no real understanding of the presidents mind ...

Admiral Anderson wasn't in charge of the quarantine. Admiral Alfred "C=
orky"
Ward was. What you learned at "4 or 5 years old" is a legend in your o=
wn
distorted mind.

End of conversation. I do not abide fools, even fools who served as
draftee-Colonels in the non-existent "USA Chemical Corps", another figm=
ent of
your "4 or 5 years old" mind.

No doubt the "Colonel" was thinking of his CURRENT commander,
"rear" Admiral Leonard "Lennie" H. (Hornblower?) Anderson, C-In-C of
1st NGLIEOFTENLIEBIG. The "Colonel" just forgot his place for a
moment, Hans, that's all.

you are obseesed with fake conspriascies little boy
=20
73
=20
Steve, K4YZ

an old friend wrote:
wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
wrote

They valued warfare higher.

As someone who has "been there, done that" I can assure you that nobo=
dy values
warfare except arms vendors.

Warfare is perceived (rightly or wrongly) as a method to OBTAIN some =
thing or
some result of value.

Well said!

JFK needed something that looked good to
counter his critics about the Bay of Pigs and
the Cuban missile crisis.

"Been there, done that, got the medals both times". The only critics=
of the
results of the "Cuban missile crisis" wore poorly fitting suits and d=
rank lots
of vodka.

Not the results but that the whole thing happened in the first place.

IIRC, the Soviets were ticked off about the placement of Jupiter-C
IRBMs in Turkey. Of course Turkey was and is a NATO country. Moscow's
objection to the IRBMs was that they could hit targets inside the
Soviet Union in minutes, and were virtually impossible to stop,
compared to conventional bombers. They demanded that the IRBMs be
removed, and of course NATO refused - even though the Jupiters were
becoming outdated by ICBMs and submarine-launched missiles.

So the Soviets retaliated by trying to install similar IRBMs in Cuba.
Fortunately the preparations were discovered and their plans thwarted.

But what was kept rather quiet is that some months after the Soviets
backed down from installing their missiles in Cuba, the Jupiters were
quietly removed from Turkey.

bull**** Jim

Which part of what I wrote is not true, Mark?

Perhaps you mean my reference to the Jupiter-Cs as "IRBMs"
(Intermediate-Range-Ballistic-Missiles) which are elsewhere called
"MRBMs" (Medium-Range-Ballistic-Missiles).

every movie or account of those days mentions it

Even if true, so what?

Those movies and accounts were done long after the crisis. What I wrote
is true: some months after the Soviets backed down from installing
their missiles in Cuba, the Jupiters were quietly removed from Turkey.

That they were scheduled to be removed, were obsolete, and were already
replaced by more-effective submarine-launched missiles and ICBMs is
inconsequential. The point is that the Soviets backed down publicly and
visibly, while *at the time*, the removal of the missiles in Turkey was
kept quiet until long after it was an accomplished fact.

and that the Jupiters were obsolete and scheduled for withdraw

and the Kendy had ordered their withdraw several time

Inconsequential - they were operational in October 1962 and were a big
reason for the Soviets' actions in Cuba. Moscow figured that if the USA
could have missiles so close to Soviet cities, then the USSR should
have similar missiles at similar distances from US cities. That the
Jupiters were actually meant to defend all of NATO, not just the USA,
was lost on the Soviets.

You also missed the point of the whole discussion: JFK pushed the
"space race" in general, and the
man-on-the-moon-before-this-decade-is-out, as a way to divert attention
from the Soviets' early space successes, and Kennedy administration
embarrassments like the Bay of Pigs. Space was a way to go mano-a-mano
with the Rooskies *without* fighting, and while they had a head start,
getting to the moon was far enough away that the USA had a good chance
of getting there first.

IOW, it *wasn't* about science, or exploration, or "the final
frontier", new technologies, etc. Those things were side benefits - the
main game was beating the Russians at something. But after July 1969,
there wasn't another clear goal nor obvious opponent. In July 1975 the
US and USSR did the joint Apollo-Soyuz mission, which would have been
all but unimaginable ten years earlier.

Just look at a partial list of early Soviet space "firsts":

1957 - Sputnik 1, first artificial earth satellite
1957 - Sputnik 2, first animal in space (Laika the dog)
1959 - Luna 2 impacts moon (intentionally!)
1961 - Vostok 1 - Yuri Gagarin is first human in space and first to
orbit the earth
1962 - Mars 1 - First flyby of Mars
1964 - Voskhod 1 - First multiperson mission (three cosmonauts)
1965 - Voskhod 2 - Alexei Leonov makes first space walk
1966 - Luna 9 soft lands on the Moon and returns TV pictures
1966 - Venera 3 is first spacecraft to enter atmosphere of another
planet (Venus)
1966 - Luna 10 orbits Moon (first spacecraft to orbit another world)

Also the first woman in space, first pictures of the far side of the
moon, and much more.

And a "hot-line" was installed between Washington and Moscow so that
things could be discussed more directly by the leaders of the two
countries, and their representatives.

73 de Jim, N2EY

nobodys old friend wrote:
K4YZ wrote:

No doubt the "Colonel" was thinking of his CURRENT commander,
"rear" Admiral Leonard "Lennie" H. (Hornblower?) Anderson, C-In-C of
1st NGLIEOFTENLIEBIG. The "Colonel" just forgot his place for a
moment, Hans, that's all.

you are obseesed with fake conspriascies little boy


"obsessed" "conspiracies"

What conspiracy? I didn't address any "conspiracy", Mark.

More delusions on your part.

Steve, K4YZ

nobodys old friend wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
"nobodys old friend" wrote

not at all no one living in the times knows
what was happening ....
....History can never be truly known till at
al least 50 years after the fact

What a humorous crock of ####! It isn't history when it's happening. =
It's real
life.

but the truth about current events is never known

BBBWWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA=
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
! ! ! ! ! ! !

Admiral Anderson had no real understanding of the presidents mind ...

Admiral Anderson wasn't in charge of the quarantine. Admiral Alfred "C=
orky"
Ward was. What you learned at "4 or 5 years old" is a legend in your o=
wn
distorted mind.

Aderson certainly was in charge unless ward went off and founded his
own navy

"Anderson"

I was again giving you the benift of the doubt Ward was further out of
the loop than Anderson

"benefit"

It wasn't yours to give, Mark.

End of conversation.

promises pormises

What an idiot.

Can't even spell the same word right twice even when it's the ONLY
word in the "sentence"... ! ! !=20

Steve, K4YZ

an old friend wrote:
K4YZ wrote:

nobodys old friend wrote:

KØHB wrote:

"an old friend" wrote


bull@@@@ Jim

every movie or account of those days ...........

I don't know what they taught you as a Colonel in the Chemical Corps, but I was
there on the blockade line (didn't watch some sensational movie version) and Jim
speaks truly.

no he doesn't

Yes, he does.


not realy

all the accounts of the matter make clear that we traded without
appearing to trade the obselete jupiter bases

It was HARDLY a "trade". We agreed to remove missles that were
already obsolete and unservicible in return for the Russians
dismantallying bases for "state-of-the-art" nuclear arms only 90 from
home.


it was not a fair trade but at the point it was made it served as a Fig
leaf for the Soveit leader (whose name I not going to try speling on my
own and I am not looking it up)

That would have a been a tough one. How do you think you did with
"Soviet", "spelling", "missiles" and "valueable"?

but made in the face of what could have easily blown apart everything
both sides though was valueble it likely looked pretty to K at the time

Try "Missles of Oct" or "13 days" but I have never seen any historical
or fictionalized account of those days that does not deal with that
trade

and assuming you were on the blockade line (I don't know but will give
you the benifit of the doubt) that would be the last place to learn of
such things

"benefit"

The benefit is not yours to give.


sure is

but then you don't respect any view but your own

it was kept quiet for a time ( a few years) but I have known of the
Jupiters and their trade off since I was 4 or 5 years old or put
another way Under president Nixon in effect the next presidental term
to follow JFK, the event happened before I was born but I learn ed of
the crisis and the trade off at the same time in my youth

Hey Mr Rocket Scientist... The Nixon Presidency was NOT the next
administration for follow JFK.


it was the next eletced one the next presidential TERM as I said

I guess the truth wasn't known back in those days--you know, before it
all became revealed in history. The rest of us probably had some
strange idea that Goldwater ran against Johnson. Ever hear of it?

Dave K8MN

K4YZ wrote:
nobodys old friend wrote:
K4YZ wrote:

No doubt the "Colonel" was thinking of his CURRENT commander,
"rear" Admiral Leonard "Lennie" H. (Hornblower?) Anderson, C-In-C of
1st NGLIEOFTENLIEBIG. The "Colonel" just forgot his place for a
moment, Hans, that's all.

you are obseesed with fake conspriascies little boy


"obsessed" "conspiracies"

What conspiracy? I didn't address any "conspiracy", Mark.

the one you seem to think exist betwen myself Len Brain and maybe frank

More delusions on your part.

no you are the delusional fellow

Steve, K4YZ

wrote:
an old friend wrote:
wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
wrote

They valued warfare higher.

As someone who has "been there, done that" I can assure you that no=
body values
warfare except arms vendors.

Warfare is perceived (rightly or wrongly) as a method to OBTAIN som=
e thing or
some result of value.

Well said!

JFK needed something that looked good to
counter his critics about the Bay of Pigs and
the Cuban missile crisis.

"Been there, done that, got the medals both times". The only criti=
cs of the
results of the "Cuban missile crisis" wore poorly fitting suits and=
drank lots
of vodka.

Not the results but that the whole thing happened in the first place.

IIRC, the Soviets were ticked off about the placement of Jupiter-C
IRBMs in Turkey. Of course Turkey was and is a NATO country. Moscow's
objection to the IRBMs was that they could hit targets inside the
Soviet Union in minutes, and were virtually impossible to stop,
compared to conventional bombers. They demanded that the IRBMs be
removed, and of course NATO refused - even though the Jupiters were
becoming outdated by ICBMs and submarine-launched missiles.

So the Soviets retaliated by trying to install similar IRBMs in Cuba.
Fortunately the preparations were discovered and their plans thwarted.

But what was kept rather quiet is that some months after the Soviets
backed down from installing their missiles in Cuba, the Jupiters were
quietly removed from Turkey.

bull**** Jim

Which part of what I wrote is not true, Mark?

that the Jupiter links with the cuban misle cris were unknown at the
time

the NY Times and Washington post had stories out within day of their
withdraw

it was comon knowledge with a few years

Perhaps you mean my reference to the Jupiter-Cs as "IRBMs"
(Intermediate-Range-Ballistic-Missiles) which are elsewhere called
"MRBMs" (Medium-Range-Ballistic-Missiles).

every movie or account of those days mentions it

Even if true, so what?

that these account all list the withdraw

Those movies and accounts were done long after the crisis. What I wrote
is true: some months after the Soviets backed down from installing
their missiles in Cuba, the Jupiters were quietly removed from Turkey.

the last is the falsehood the jupiters simply were not front page news

That they were scheduled to be removed, were obsolete, and were already
replaced by more-effective submarine-launched missiles and ICBMs is
inconsequential. The point is that the Soviets backed down publicly and
visibly, while *at the time*, the removal of the missiles in Turkey was
kept quiet until long after it was an accomplished fact.

deabtable the meaning of "long" by my count it was matter of few
months. I call that short, indeed id say it was kept queist a shorter
than most folks who do learn morse Code take to learn it

but in any event that was part of the deal the jupiter withdraw was
mostly to help K setle matter matter with the politboro, not the public


and that the Jupiters were obsolete and scheduled for withdraw

and the Kendy had ordered their withdraw several time

cut the waste of BW

KY4Z wrote:
nobodys old friend wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
"nobodys old friend" wrote

not at all no one living in the times knows
what was happening ....
....History can never be truly known till at
al least 50 years after the fact

What a humorous crock of ####! It isn't history when it's happening.=
It's real
life.

but the truth about current events is never known

BBBWWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA=
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
! ! ! ! ! ! !

simple fact

The Comenader at Midway did not know the what all was going one

Ceaser's (Otavian) legion comanders did know what was going in the cvil
war with Anthony

hans can't have known what was going in the white house or at state

Admiral Anderson had no real understanding of the presidents mind .=
..=2E

Admiral Anderson wasn't in charge of the quarantine. Admiral Alfred =
"Corky"
Ward was. What you learned at "4 or 5 years old" is a legend in your=
own
distorted mind.

Aderson certainly was in charge unless ward went off and founded his
own navy

"Anderson"

I was again giving you the benift of the doubt Ward was further out of
the loop than Anderson

"benefit"

It wasn't yours to give, Mark.

it is solely mine to give, on my own behalf

End of conversation.

promises pormises

What an idiot.

Can't even spell the same word right twice even when it's the ONLY
word in the "sentence"... ! ! !

no I can't some days

but you know that, you know why (or you should by now) and yet you show
you willing to bash and insult the disabled by going on and on

OTOH do go ahead it saves me a lot of work with the targer audeince in
showing you, and your side in various deabte your true colors

=20
Steve, KY4Z

wrote in message
oups.com...

an old friend wrote:
wrote:
KØHB wrote:
wrote

They valued warfare higher.

As someone who has "been there, done that" I can assure you that
nobody values
warfare except arms vendors.

Warfare is perceived (rightly or wrongly) as a method to OBTAIN some
thing or
some result of value.

Well said!

JFK needed something that looked good to
counter his critics about the Bay of Pigs and
the Cuban missile crisis.

"Been there, done that, got the medals both times". The only critics
of the
results of the "Cuban missile crisis" wore poorly fitting suits and
drank lots
of vodka.

Not the results but that the whole thing happened in the first place.

IIRC, the Soviets were ticked off about the placement of Jupiter-C
IRBMs in Turkey. Of course Turkey was and is a NATO country. Moscow's
objection to the IRBMs was that they could hit targets inside the
Soviet Union in minutes, and were virtually impossible to stop,
compared to conventional bombers. They demanded that the IRBMs be
removed, and of course NATO refused - even though the Jupiters were
becoming outdated by ICBMs and submarine-launched missiles.

So the Soviets retaliated by trying to install similar IRBMs in Cuba.
Fortunately the preparations were discovered and their plans thwarted.

But what was kept rather quiet is that some months after the Soviets
backed down from installing their missiles in Cuba, the Jupiters were
quietly removed from Turkey.

bull**** Jim

Which part of what I wrote is not true, Mark?

Perhaps you mean my reference to the Jupiter-Cs as "IRBMs"
(Intermediate-Range-Ballistic-Missiles) which are elsewhere called
"MRBMs" (Medium-Range-Ballistic-Missiles).

every movie or account of those days mentions it

Even if true, so what?

Those movies and accounts were done long after the crisis. What I wrote
is true: some months after the Soviets backed down from installing
their missiles in Cuba, the Jupiters were quietly removed from Turkey.
__________________________________________________ ____
End Quote


Movies and novels, etc often take artistic license with the facts in order
to produce more impact. That is true of both dramas and comedies. So any
one who relies on such items for their history is going to be using a far
amount of misinformation. Even the news media takes artistic license by the
selection of what facts and speculation to report since they are going for
ratings.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE