wrote:
an old friend wrote:
wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
wrote

They valued warfare higher.

As someone who has "been there, done that" I can assure you that no=
body values
warfare except arms vendors.

Warfare is perceived (rightly or wrongly) as a method to OBTAIN som=
e thing or
some result of value.

Well said!

JFK needed something that looked good to
counter his critics about the Bay of Pigs and
the Cuban missile crisis.

"Been there, done that, got the medals both times". The only criti=
cs of the
results of the "Cuban missile crisis" wore poorly fitting suits and=
drank lots
of vodka.

Not the results but that the whole thing happened in the first place.

IIRC, the Soviets were ticked off about the placement of Jupiter-C
IRBMs in Turkey. Of course Turkey was and is a NATO country. Moscow's
objection to the IRBMs was that they could hit targets inside the
Soviet Union in minutes, and were virtually impossible to stop,
compared to conventional bombers. They demanded that the IRBMs be
removed, and of course NATO refused - even though the Jupiters were
becoming outdated by ICBMs and submarine-launched missiles.

So the Soviets retaliated by trying to install similar IRBMs in Cuba.
Fortunately the preparations were discovered and their plans thwarted.

But what was kept rather quiet is that some months after the Soviets
backed down from installing their missiles in Cuba, the Jupiters were
quietly removed from Turkey.

bull**** Jim

Which part of what I wrote is not true, Mark?

that the Jupiter links with the cuban misle cris were unknown at the
time

the NY Times and Washington post had stories out within day of their
withdraw

it was comon knowledge with a few years

Perhaps you mean my reference to the Jupiter-Cs as "IRBMs"
(Intermediate-Range-Ballistic-Missiles) which are elsewhere called
"MRBMs" (Medium-Range-Ballistic-Missiles).

every movie or account of those days mentions it

Even if true, so what?

that these account all list the withdraw

Those movies and accounts were done long after the crisis. What I wrote
is true: some months after the Soviets backed down from installing
their missiles in Cuba, the Jupiters were quietly removed from Turkey.

the last is the falsehood the jupiters simply were not front page news

That they were scheduled to be removed, were obsolete, and were already
replaced by more-effective submarine-launched missiles and ICBMs is
inconsequential. The point is that the Soviets backed down publicly and
visibly, while *at the time*, the removal of the missiles in Turkey was
kept quiet until long after it was an accomplished fact.

deabtable the meaning of "long" by my count it was matter of few
months. I call that short, indeed id say it was kept queist a shorter
than most folks who do learn morse Code take to learn it

but in any event that was part of the deal the jupiter withdraw was
mostly to help K setle matter matter with the politboro, not the public


and that the Jupiters were obsolete and scheduled for withdraw

and the Kendy had ordered their withdraw several time

cut the waste of BW

an old friend wrote:
wrote:
an old friend wrote:
wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
wrote

They valued warfare higher.

As someone who has "been there, done that" I can assure you that =
nobody values
warfare except arms vendors.

Warfare is perceived (rightly or wrongly) as a method to OBTAIN s=
ome thing or
some result of value.

Well said!

JFK needed something that looked good to
counter his critics about the Bay of Pigs and
the Cuban missile crisis.

"Been there, done that, got the medals both times". The only cri=
tics of the
results of the "Cuban missile crisis" wore poorly fitting suits a=
nd drank lots
of vodka.

Not the results but that the whole thing happened in the first plac=
e=2E

IIRC, the Soviets were ticked off about the placement of Jupiter-C
IRBMs in Turkey. Of course Turkey was and is a NATO country. Moscow=
's
objection to the IRBMs was that they could hit targets inside the
Soviet Union in minutes, and were virtually impossible to stop,
compared to conventional bombers. They demanded that the IRBMs be
removed, and of course NATO refused - even though the Jupiters were
becoming outdated by ICBMs and submarine-launched missiles.

So the Soviets retaliated by trying to install similar IRBMs in Cub=
a=2E
Fortunately the preparations were discovered and their plans thwart=
ed.

But what was kept rather quiet is that some months after the Soviets
backed down from installing their missiles in Cuba, the Jupiters we=
re
quietly removed from Turkey.

bull**** Jim

Which part of what I wrote is not true, Mark?

that the Jupiter links with the cuban misle cris were unknown at the
time

That's the way it was. There were two parts to the resolution of the
crisis:

First, the Soviets removed their missiles and promised not to put such
missiles or similar weapons so close to the USA in the future. This
part was made public right away.

Second, the USA and NATO removed the Jupiter-C missiles from Turkey
some time afterwards. This part was kept secret and *not* publicized
until long after the crisis was over.

But don't take my word for it. Read the actual documents, many recently
unclassified:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/

All sorts of good stuff on that site. For example, the Jupiters in
Turkey only became operational in April, 1962. And at that time, the
USSR had only about fifty nuclear-capable bombers and missiles that
could reach the USA, while the USA had about ten times that many
capable of reaching the USSR.

the NY Times and Washington post had stories out within day of their
withdraw

Show us.

it was comon knowledge with a few years

The point is that *at the time of the crisis* the US agreement to
remove the Jupiter-Cs from Turkey was kept very quiet, while the USSR's
agreement to remove their missiles from Cuba was all over the front
pages of the Western world.

Perhaps you mean my reference to the Jupiter-Cs as "IRBMs"
(Intermediate-Range-Ballistic-Missiles) which are elsewhere called
"MRBMs" (Medium-Range-Ballistic-Missiles).

every movie or account of those days mentions it

Even if true, so what?

that these account all list the withdraw

*AFTER* the crises was long past. Not in October/November 1962, when
the Soviet concessions were made.

Those movies and accounts were done long after the crisis. What I wrote
is true: some months after the Soviets backed down from installing
their missiles in Cuba, the Jupiters were quietly removed from Turkey.

the last is the falsehood the jupiters simply were not front page news

Show us.

That they were scheduled to be removed, were obsolete, and were already
replaced by more-effective submarine-launched missiles and ICBMs is
inconsequential. The point is that the Soviets backed down publicly and
visibly, while *at the time*, the removal of the missiles in Turkey was
kept quiet until long after it was an accomplished fact.

deabtable the meaning of "long" by my count it was matter of few
months.

Then what you're really arguing over is how much time it takes to
qualify as "long after".

I call that short, indeed id say it was kept queist a shorter
than most folks who do learn morse Code take to learn it

Most people can learn Morse Code well enough to pass the current test
in about 30 days - if they practice the right way.

but in any event that was part of the deal the jupiter withdraw was
mostly to help K setle matter matter with the politboro, not the public

NK was removed from power within about two years (1964), with the
handling of that crisis being a big factor.

and that the Jupiters were obsolete and scheduled for withdraw

and the Kendy had ordered their withdraw several time

cut the waste of BW

You mean the facts. The Jupiters in Turkey only became operational in
April 1962.

I suggest you and anyone interested check out the above website for the
facts.


btw, since K0HB was a USN radio operator involved in the quarantine,
it's very possible he knew far more about what was going on - first
hand - than you give him credit for.