wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

So if these emergencies aren't really emergencies, then when a no-coder
with a VHF radio steps in where the cell network doesn't cover, the
"emergency" still isn't an emergency.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

So if these emergencies aren't really emergencies, then when a no-coder
with a VHF radio steps in where the cell network doesn't cover, the
"emergency" still isn't an emergency.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies. Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...9?dmode=source

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Every amateur transmission is a service to the country?

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

A back-up provides exactly the same kind of service as the service that
is being backed up.

Does amateur radio provide that?

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

Thus my posting last month quoting an ARRL VP.

However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

Agreed.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Why would you care? You ignore Robesin's all caps, accusatory thread
jacking when it happens.

Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

Yet some calls still are still getting through. Some calls are
performing emergency comms. No?

So if these emergencies aren't really emergencies, then when a no-coder
with a VHF radio steps in where the cell network doesn't cover, the
"emergency" still isn't an emergency.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Fair enough.

Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

It can be.

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

How many years were the shuttles grounded? Lots of time to collect the
wreckage.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

Fair enough.

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...9?dmode=source

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Not all communications surrounding Katrina were emcomms.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Every amateur transmission is a service to the country?

Of course not.

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

A back-up provides exactly the same kind of service as the service that
is being backed up.

Not necessarily. A backup provides a service that can replace the
service that is being backed up, but may not be exactly the same. For
example, when the electrical utility service fails, many people will
depend on candles, lanterns and flashlights for lighting. Those things
aren't exactly the same as what is backed up but they do the job. Of
course a whole-house backup generator is preferable and will deliver
backup electricity that is almost the same as the utility.

For an Amateur Radio example, two Red Cross facilities may usually
communicate supply lists by email. If their email fails, Amateur Radio
could step in with WinLink and provide a very similar service. But if
WinLink is not available, the lists could be sent by radio amateurs
using PSK31, voice or, yes, even Morse Code. All depends on what's
available at the time. Getting a list that was sent by voice and is
hand-written might not be exactly the same as getting it by email, but
it will do until the email is working again.

Does amateur radio provide that?

Sometimes (WinLink vs. email) but not usually. But a backup that is
exactly the same as the backed-up service is not essential. In fact, if
the backup is exactly the same, what you have is redundancy.

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

Thus my posting last month quoting an ARRL VP.

I missed that one. Did he overstate?

However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

Agreed.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Why would you care? You ignore Robesin's all caps, accusatory thread
jacking when it happens.

I don't read much of rrap. They're simply too much volume and too
little time. I stopped reading rrap completely for several months
because of all the noise, and reverted to just posting the ARS license
numbers for a while.

Which reminds me - time for the next post in that thread.

Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

Yet some calls still are still getting through. Some calls are
performing emergency comms. No?

Yes! The problem is that cell phone communications may not be available
when most needed.

Massive cell phone system failure can occur when power fails for an
extended time and the backup power runs out.

So if these emergencies aren't really emergencies, then when a no-coder
with a VHF radio steps in where the cell network doesn't cover, the
"emergency" still isn't an emergency.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Fair enough.

Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

It can be.

When it happens.

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

How many years were the shuttles grounded? Lots of time to collect the
wreckage.

But the longer the wreckage was out in the weather, the less
information could be had from it, and the harder it would be to find.
Plus the sooner any information could be gathered, the sooner it could
be acted upon.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

Fair enough.

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...9?dmode=source

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Not all communications surrounding Katrina were emcomms.

Of course.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

"Service to the country" is one reason for the continued existence of
the Amateur Radio Service.

---

Now a question:

- Does the fact that Amateur Radio "provides service to the country"
mean that the ARS is more than "just a hobby"?

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Every amateur transmission is a service to the country?

Of course not.

Then not all amateur transmissions are a service to the country.

Are all amateurs a service to the country?

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

A back-up provides exactly the same kind of service as the service that
is being backed up.

Not necessarily. A backup provides a service that can replace the
service that is being backed up, but may not be exactly the same. For
example, when the electrical utility service fails, many people will
depend on candles, lanterns and flashlights for lighting. Those things
aren't exactly the same as what is backed up but they do the job. Of
course a whole-house backup generator is preferable and will deliver
backup electricity that is almost the same as the utility.

For an Amateur Radio example, two Red Cross facilities may usually
communicate supply lists by email. If their email fails, Amateur Radio
could step in with WinLink and provide a very similar service. But if
WinLink is not available, the lists could be sent by radio amateurs
using PSK31, voice or, yes, even Morse Code. All depends on what's
available at the time. Getting a list that was sent by voice and is
hand-written might not be exactly the same as getting it by email, but
it will do until the email is working again.

Does amateur radio provide that?

Sometimes (WinLink vs. email) but not usually. But a backup that is
exactly the same as the backed-up service is not essential. In fact, if
the backup is exactly the same, what you have is redundancy.

At what point does the ICS commander take the amateur radio away from
you and starts communicating on his own?

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

Thus my posting last month quoting an ARRL VP.

I missed that one. Did he overstate?

She.

However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

Agreed.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Why would you care? You ignore Robesin's all caps, accusatory thread
jacking when it happens.

I don't read much of rrap. They're simply too much volume and too
little time. I stopped reading rrap completely for several months
because of all the noise, and reverted to just posting the ARS license
numbers for a while.

Which reminds me - time for the next post in that thread.

Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

Yet some calls still are still getting through. Some calls are
performing emergency comms. No?

Yes! The problem is that cell phone communications may not be available
when most needed.

Massive cell phone system failure can occur when power fails for an
extended time and the backup power runs out.

That can also render many or most amateur stations inop.

So if these emergencies aren't really emergencies, then when a no-coder
with a VHF radio steps in where the cell network doesn't cover, the
"emergency" still isn't an emergency.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Fair enough.

Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

It can be.

When it happens.

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

How many years were the shuttles grounded? Lots of time to collect the
wreckage.

But the longer the wreckage was out in the weather, the less
information could be had from it, and the harder it would be to find.
Plus the sooner any information could be gathered, the sooner it could
be acted upon.

They could have bought it off of ebay.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

Fair enough.

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...9?dmode=source

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Not all communications surrounding Katrina were emcomms.

Of course.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

"Service to the country" is one reason for the continued existence of
the Amateur Radio Service.

---

Now a question:

- Does the fact that Amateur Radio "provides service to the country"
mean that the ARS is more than "just a hobby"?

It can be. ;^)

From: on Sat, Sep 16 2006 4:03 am

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Every amateur transmission is a service to the country?

Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh....

Seems like I shook the nitroglycerine bottle that is the mighty
macho morseman's ego with that entrapment. :-) KABLOOIE!!!

---

Poor Jimmy, all flustered, thought he'd "gotten to me." Poor baby,
he doesn't check the Federal Register often enough.

On 7 July 2006 the Federal Register made available FR Doc 06-6013
[ET Docket 06-119; FCC 06-831 on the FCC website]. That was a
52 page report by the 27 member panel (1 chair, 26 members), written
single-spaced, narrow margins, members all identified by their
affiliations on pp 51-52. That was several weeks ago.

In FR Doc 06-6013 there is ONE short paragraph about "amateur
radio involvement" on page 29 (upper half of page). There is a
single statement on page 45 about "waiver of regulations" for
amateur radio AND other communications services. That's it.

Had FR Doc 06-6013 been formatted in conventional manuscript
style (double-spaced, wide margins) it would have been a bit
larger than 150 pages in length. :-)

Mr. professional-in-some-kind-of-electronics thinks "I should"
read that report. :-) I already did, weeks ago, when it was
available to the public.

What professional-in-some-kind-of-electronics Jimmy FAILED to
mention is thousands and thousands of pages of OTHER text in
both popular press and professional trade magazines on the
tremendous task of getting New Orleans somewhat functional
after a major disaster where the state, city of New Orleans
was INADEQUATELY PREPARED AT ALL LEVELS (including amateurs)
to provide ANY adequate service for its citizens. The
surviving services did as best they could with work-arounds,
hampered by the city of New Orleans being built below sea
level with INADEQUATE protection against dike breaching (which
did happen, causing major, major flooding).

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

A back-up provides exactly the same kind of service as the service that
is being backed up.

Does amateur radio provide that?

Seldom. By law it CANNOT provide the SAME service as
broadcasting, multiplexed-circuit communications as in the
telephone infrastructure, and NOT in the high speed of
data transfer NOW COMMON to MOST communications services
on the OUTSIDE of amateur radio.

Yes, amateur radio does provide "health and welfare" message
relay and some 'phone patches' to the public...provided those
amateur radio services are ABLE TO SURVIVE a major
environmental disaster. The ARRL failed to "report" on all
the amateur radio facilities that did NOT SURVIVE Katrina
(wouldn't be good for their wish-fulfillment of members to
report that).

Yes, amateur radio DID provide SOME communications AFTER
Katrina had hit. "Health and welfare" messages and some
scattered 'phone patching on the OUTSKIRTS of New Orleans.
NONE of that amateur radio communications effort happened
DURING the height of a REAL emergency situation and the
start of the flooding immediately afterwards. [refer to
the stock video shots such as dozens of bright yellow
school busses sitting in a flooded bus park, empty, up
to their hubcaps in water...busses that could have been
driven by most drivers to help evacuate flood victims,
but were NOT, just ignored by almost everyone there]

"Health and welfare" messaging is emotional sustenance to
family and friends of disaster victims. But, let's face it,
it is NOT ESSENTIAL to saving lives of the victims, does
NOT help repair damange, does NOT evacuate any victims,
does NOT do any lasting service to victims other than to
provide copy for ARRL news pages.

Did Mr. Professional-in-some-kind-of-electronics provide HIS
personal "service to the country" during or after Katrina?
He never said boo about it. He HAS jabbered about his
"service in 'other' ways" (to the nation) but has NEVER
explained those "other ways" in any sort of detail.

Hurricane Katrina was a severe disaster, unprecedented
in recent times (including time hurricanes had routinely
hit Florida). The 'preparations for emergencies' in the
New Orleans area were later revealed to be miniscule (if
not abyssmal and poorly planned. That apparently
INCLUDED amateur radio 'preparations;' the ARRL is
strangely silent on that aspect.

Normally, the REAL emergency services and radio services
OTHER than amateur radio are available 24/7 all over the
nation. Here is what I wrote previously on those:

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

My wife and I were in the upper midwest when Katrina hit the Gulf
states' coastline last year. Outside of Katrina being the major
focus of the news, NOTHING affected our stay there. The remaining
weather disturbance reaching the upper midwest DID cause us to
change plans on the return trip. My wife handled all the
reservation changes via cell phone from inside the car while I
was driving through Iowa and on into Nevada. Excellent service
on that. No roadway or motel or restaurant services were
affected. On the 2000 mile return trip we saw only two incidents
of accidents of others, both attended to by existing
infrastructure public safety and towing services.


That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

Thus my posting last month quoting an ARRL VP.

Brian, that is anathema to the morseodist supermen of the ARRL
persuasion. A "no-no" in common speech. The ARRL is always
right, can never be wrong...


However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

Agreed.

In ANY emergency, ANY communications service facility is useful.
One uses whatever is there at the time. The FCC recognizes this
in Part 1 of Title 47 C.F.R. in regards to ALL radio services'
operations in the event of a REAL emergency.



Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

[that is so RARE that it is almost laughable]

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

[that has become a rarity...in the "Big Dig" tunnel complex
of Boston there are internal RF repeaters for that...but
any radio is useless there when the roof pieces fall...]

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Why would you care? You ignore Robesin's all caps, accusatory thread
jacking when it happens.

Jimmy has tunnel vision. He would be at home in Boston in the
tunnel complex...if it weren't so "violent." :-)

Oops! Jimmy allow no violence! I forgot. He would interpret
falling concrete roof slabs as "MY (violent) ERROR!" :-)


Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

Yet some calls still are still getting through. Some calls are
performing emergency comms. No?

Not in Jimmyworld. In emergencies ALL infrastructure comms
FAIL and ONLY amateur radio can save the day. Sigh...

Amateurs and amateur radio equipment SURVIVES the harshest
environments and is ready-and-able to SERVE 24/7 !

[gag, guffaw! :-) ]



Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Fair enough.

Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

It can be.

The "service" aspect is largely confined to refills of the
pipe that some smoke while dreaming in front of their radios.

Apparently some feel guilt about enjoying a hobby - or just
inadequate - and try to pretend they are much more important
than just hobbyists. Some pretend to be professionals in an
amateur activity.


The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

How many years were the shuttles grounded? Lots of time to collect the
wreckage.

Mr. Professional-in-SOME-kind-of-work seems to have overlooked
both the NASA statements immediately after the fact, the many,
many pages of news and information about the shuttle disaster,
the probable cause of disintegration (number one suspect on day
one of the tragedy...by the pros involved). The "footprint" of
the breakup was spread over three states in a known path. The
bodies of all astronauts on board were recovered as well as
over 80 percent of the spaceframe. Pictures of the wreckage
laid out in order in a hangar in Florida were printed in
Aviation Week & Space Technology. The vast majority of the
wreckage pieces were found by ordinary citizens, ones who
have not been granted amateur radio licenses.


Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

Fair enough.

The ACTUAL communications services were done by existing infra-
structure agencies...everyone from local PDs to the Forest
Service that could be spared from regular work. CITIZENS,
most of whom had NO radio licenses, helped the wreckage
recovery efforts on their own, no ham license required.


That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

[Torquemada Jim did NOT identify which ones...he only wanted
to light a burning at the stake...:-) ]


Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r.../msg/5be7f564c...

[...a "vital service to the nation"...disregarding those
who've actually worked on STS components such as the SSME]

[heh heh heh heh heh heh...]


There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Not all communications surrounding Katrina were emcomms.

Tsk, the traditional New Year's Rose Parade uses non-amateur
comms to keep it organized and going, how about that? :-)


Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Here is what was originally written:

Torquemada Jim: "Are you saying that amateur radio does not
perform any service to the country?"

My reply: "Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES."

KABLOOIE! Jimmy HAD to explode in a torrent of "errors."
Gotta love it...push just one button and he detonates.
:-) [...this is more fun than a barrel of morseodists]

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

FIFTY TWO PAGES WORTH, released 7 Jul 06, got it fresh from the
GPO website when it was released. Interesting but wordy.

Re-skim-reading it, I did NOT see the "importance to the
country" in such glowing, endearing, patriotic terms. That's
probably due to being just an ordinary citizen, having served
my country in the military during a time of war, working as
a professional in radio-electronics...not in the "transport
industry" or busy, busy with manual telegraphy. :-)

US amateur radio is an interesting avocational aspect of the
entire radio world. It can be fun to most of the hobbyists.
But, a few, like Mr. Professional-in-some-kind-of-whatever,
wrap themselves in too much patriotic bunting...they can't
see through that or the many flags they wave about them-
selves. Pity that, only saplings pretending to be mature
trees, unable to see the forest.

[watch the outrageous vituperation flow in now... :-) ]

Beep, beep,

US amateur radio is an interesting avocational aspect of the
entire radio world. It can be fun to most of the hobbyists.
But, a few, like Mr. Professional-in-some-kind-of-whatever,
wrap themselves in too much patriotic bunting...they can't
see through that or the many flags they wave about them-
selves. Pity that, only saplings pretending to be mature
trees, unable to see the forest.

[watch the outrageous vituperation flow in now... :-) ]

Beep, beep,





YAWN

Jonathan wrote:
US amateur radio is an interesting avocational aspect of the
entire radio world. It can be fun to most of the hobbyists.
But, a few, like Mr. Professional-in-some-kind-of-whatever,
wrap themselves in too much patriotic bunting...they can't
see through that or the many flags they wave about them-
selves. Pity that, only saplings pretending to be mature
trees, unable to see the forest.

[watch the outrageous vituperation flow in now... :-) ]

Beep, beep,





YAWN

Since they have no military service, they must have a surrogate that
can be just as good.

wrote:
From: on Sat, Sep 16 2006 4:03 am
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Every amateur transmission is a service to the country?

Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh....

Seems like I shook the nitroglycerine bottle that is the mighty
macho morseman's ego with that entrapment. :-) KABLOOIE!!!

No, Len, you were just wrong.

---

Poor Jimmy, all flustered, thought he'd "gotten to me." Poor baby,
he doesn't check the Federal Register often enough.

On 7 July 2006 the Federal Register made available FR Doc 06-6013
[ET Docket 06-119; FCC 06-831 on the FCC website]. That was a
52 page report by the 27 member panel (1 chair, 26 members), written
single-spaced, narrow margins, members all identified by their
affiliations on pp 51-52. That was several weeks ago.

In FR Doc 06-6013 there is ONE short paragraph about "amateur
radio involvement" on page 29 (upper half of page). There is a
single statement on page 45 about "waiver of regulations" for
amateur radio AND other communications services. That's it.

Had FR Doc 06-6013 been formatted in conventional manuscript
style (double-spaced, wide margins) it would have been a bit
larger than 150 pages in length. :-)

Mr. professional-in-some-kind-of-electronics thinks "I should"
read that report. :-) I already did, weeks ago, when it was
available to the public.

How is that relevant to your mistake, Len?

What professional-in-some-kind-of-electronics Jimmy FAILED to
mention is thousands and thousands of pages of OTHER text in
both popular press and professional trade magazines on the
tremendous task of getting New Orleans somewhat functional
after a major disaster where the state, city of New Orleans
was INADEQUATELY PREPARED AT ALL LEVELS (including amateurs)
to provide ANY adequate service for its citizens.

You mean the professionals messed up? The professionals weren't
prepared?

The
surviving services did as best they could with work-arounds,
hampered by the city of New Orleans being built below sea
level with INADEQUATE protection against dike breaching (which
did happen, causing major, major flooding).

Isn't the Army Corps of Engineers responsible for the levees? And the
pumps?

Why weren't the professionals adequately prepared for the storm? It's
not like hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico are unusual.

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

A back-up provides exactly the same kind of service as the service that
is being backed up.

Does amateur radio provide that?

Seldom. By law it CANNOT provide the SAME service as
broadcasting, multiplexed-circuit communications as in the
telephone infrastructure, and NOT in the high speed of
data transfer NOW COMMON to MOST communications services
on the OUTSIDE of amateur radio.

Yes, amateur radio does provide "health and welfare" message
relay and some 'phone patches' to the public...provided those
amateur radio services are ABLE TO SURVIVE a major
environmental disaster. The ARRL failed to "report" on all
the amateur radio facilities that did NOT SURVIVE Katrina
(wouldn't be good for their wish-fulfillment of members to
report that).

Amateur radio emergency communications can be more than health and
welfare, Len.

Yes, amateur radio DID provide SOME communications AFTER
Katrina had hit. "Health and welfare" messages and some
scattered 'phone patching on the OUTSKIRTS of New Orleans.
NONE of that amateur radio communications effort happened
DURING the height of a REAL emergency situation and the
start of the flooding immediately afterwards. [refer to
the stock video shots such as dozens of bright yellow
school busses sitting in a flooded bus park, empty, up
to their hubcaps in water...busses that could have been
driven by most drivers to help evacuate flood victims,
but were NOT, just ignored by almost everyone there]

Why weren't the professionals better prepared, Len?

"Health and welfare" messaging is emotional sustenance to
family and friends of disaster victims. But, let's face it,
it is NOT ESSENTIAL to saving lives of the victims, does
NOT help repair damange, does NOT evacuate any victims,
does NOT do any lasting service to victims other than to
provide copy for ARRL news pages.

Do you think that health and welfare traffic is all that amateur radio
ever does in an emergency?

Do you think that health and welfare traffic is not a service to the
country?

Did Mr. Professional-in-some-kind-of-electronics provide HIS
personal "service to the country" during or after Katrina?
He never said boo about it.

Boo.

He HAS jabbered about his
"service in 'other' ways" (to the nation) but has NEVER
explained those "other ways" in any sort of detail.

Where, exactly, did I ever write about *my* service "in other ways"?

Show us the exact quotes.

Hurricane Katrina was a severe disaster, unprecedented
in recent times (including time hurricanes had routinely
hit Florida).

So what? NOLA is definitely in a hurricane zone. It's been below sea
level for a very long time. There's no excuse for not being prepared.

The 'preparations for emergencies' in the
New Orleans area were later revealed to be miniscule (if
not abyssmal and poorly planned. That apparently
INCLUDED amateur radio 'preparations;' the ARRL is
strangely silent on that aspect.

Why weren't the professionals prepared?

Normally, the REAL emergency services and radio services
OTHER than amateur radio are available 24/7 all over the
nation.

"Normal" and "emergency" are opposites.

Here is what I wrote previously on those:

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

Except that when Katrina hit, that didn't happen.

My wife and I were in the upper midwest when Katrina hit the Gulf
states' coastline last year. Outside of Katrina being the major
focus of the news, NOTHING affected our stay there. The remaining
weather disturbance reaching the upper midwest DID cause us to
change plans on the return trip. My wife handled all the
reservation changes via cell phone from inside the car while I
was driving through Iowa and on into Nevada. Excellent service
on that. No roadway or motel or restaurant services were
affected. On the 2000 mile return trip we saw only two incidents
of accidents of others, both attended to by existing
infrastructure public safety and towing services.

And your point is?

You seem to be saying that since you were hundreds of miles form NOLA
and Katrina didn't really affect you, that amateur radio performs no
service to the country.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

Thus my posting last month quoting an ARRL VP.

Brian, that is anathema to the morseodist supermen of the ARRL
persuasion. A "no-no" in common speech. The ARRL is always
right, can never be wrong...

Gee, Len, you talk that way about yourself.

However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

Agreed.

In ANY emergency, ANY communications service facility is useful.
One uses whatever is there at the time. The FCC recognizes this
in Part 1 of Title 47 C.F.R. in regards to ALL radio services'
operations in the event of a REAL emergency.

So Amateur Radio *does* provide a service to the country.

Glad to see you've finally admitted your mistakes, Len.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

[that is so RARE that it is almost laughable]

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

[that has become a rarity...in the "Big Dig" tunnel complex
of Boston there are internal RF repeaters for that...but
any radio is useless there when the roof pieces fall...]

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Why would you care? You ignore Robesin's all caps, accusatory thread
jacking when it happens.

Jimmy has tunnel vision. He would be at home in Boston in the
tunnel complex...if it weren't so "violent." :-)

Oops! Jimmy allow no violence! I forgot. He would interpret
falling concrete roof slabs as "MY (violent) ERROR!" :-)


Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

Yet some calls still are still getting through. Some calls are
performing emergency comms. No?

Not in Jimmyworld. In emergencies ALL infrastructure comms
FAIL and ONLY amateur radio can save the day. Sigh...

Amateurs and amateur radio equipment SURVIVES the harshest
environments and is ready-and-able to SERVE 24/7 !

[gag, guffaw! :-) ]

Looks like Len is relapsing...

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Fair enough.

Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

It can be.

The "service" aspect is largely confined to refills of the
pipe that some smoke while dreaming in front of their radios.

I don't smoke, Len.

Apparently some feel guilt about enjoying a hobby - or just
inadequate - and try to pretend they are much more important
than just hobbyists. Some pretend to be professionals in an
amateur activity.

Why were the professionals so unprepared for Katrina, Len?

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

How many years were the shuttles grounded? Lots of time to collect the
wreckage.

Mr. Professional-in-SOME-kind-of-work seems to have overlooked
both the NASA statements immediately after the fact, the many,
many pages of news and information about the shuttle disaster,
the probable cause of disintegration (number one suspect on day
one of the tragedy...by the pros involved). The "footprint" of
the breakup was spread over three states in a known path. The
bodies of all astronauts on board were recovered as well as
over 80 percent of the spaceframe. Pictures of the wreckage
laid out in order in a hangar in Florida were printed in
Aviation Week & Space Technology. The vast majority of the
wreckage pieces were found by ordinary citizens, ones who
have not been granted amateur radio licenses.

And yet at least some of the search efforts were aided by amateur radio
communication. That's proven by first-had accounts by amateurs who were
there, doing the job.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

Fair enough.

The ACTUAL communications services were done by existing infra-
structure agencies...everyone from local PDs to the Forest
Service that could be spared from regular work.

Not all of them. Amateur Radio played a role.

CITIZENS,
most of whom had NO radio licenses, helped the wreckage
recovery efforts on their own, no ham license required.

Some of those efforts used Amateur Radio communications.

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

[Torquemada Jim did NOT identify which ones...he only wanted
to light a burning at the stake...:-) ]

Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r.../msg/5be7f564c...

[...a "vital service to the nation"...disregarding those
who've actually worked on STS components such as the SSME]

[heh heh heh heh heh heh...]

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Not all communications surrounding Katrina were emcomms.

Tsk, the traditional New Year's Rose Parade uses non-amateur
comms to keep it organized and going, how about that? :-)

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Here is what was originally written:

Torquemada Jim: "Are you saying that amateur radio does not
perform any service to the country?"

My reply: "Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES."

KABLOOIE! Jimmy HAD to explode in a torrent of "errors."
Gotta love it...push just one button and he detonates.
:-) [...this is more fun than a barrel of morseodists]

"Explode". Len? Not me. You're the one who goes off when someone
disagrees with you.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

FIFTY TWO PAGES WORTH, released 7 Jul 06, got it fresh from the
GPO website when it was released. Interesting but wordy.

Re-skim-reading it, I did NOT see the "importance to the
country" in such glowing, endearing, patriotic terms. That's
probably due to being just an ordinary citizen, having served
my country in the military during a time of war, working as
a professional in radio-electronics...not in the "transport
industry" or busy, busy with manual telegraphy. :-)

US amateur radio is an interesting avocational aspect of the
entire radio world. It can be fun to most of the hobbyists.
But, a few, like Mr. Professional-in-some-kind-of-whatever,
wrap themselves in too much patriotic bunting...they can't
see through that or the many flags they wave about them-
selves. Pity that, only saplings pretending to be mature
trees, unable to see the forest.

[watch the outrageous vituperation flow in now... :-) ]

From you, Len.

Try reading the account of the Shuttle debris search - from someone who
was there.

wrote:

So what? NOLA is definitely in a hurricane zone. It's been below sea
level for a very long time. There's no excuse for not being prepared.

There's no excuse for rebuilding a city there.

How much of a drain on the rest of the US taxpayers must New Orleans be?