wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Every amateur transmission is a service to the country?

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

A back-up provides exactly the same kind of service as the service that
is being backed up.

Does amateur radio provide that?

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

Thus my posting last month quoting an ARRL VP.

However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

Agreed.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Why would you care? You ignore Robesin's all caps, accusatory thread
jacking when it happens.

Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

Yet some calls still are still getting through. Some calls are
performing emergency comms. No?

So if these emergencies aren't really emergencies, then when a no-coder
with a VHF radio steps in where the cell network doesn't cover, the
"emergency" still isn't an emergency.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Fair enough.

Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

It can be.

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

How many years were the shuttles grounded? Lots of time to collect the
wreckage.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

Fair enough.

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...9?dmode=source

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Not all communications surrounding Katrina were emcomms.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Every amateur transmission is a service to the country?

Of course not.

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

A back-up provides exactly the same kind of service as the service that
is being backed up.

Not necessarily. A backup provides a service that can replace the
service that is being backed up, but may not be exactly the same. For
example, when the electrical utility service fails, many people will
depend on candles, lanterns and flashlights for lighting. Those things
aren't exactly the same as what is backed up but they do the job. Of
course a whole-house backup generator is preferable and will deliver
backup electricity that is almost the same as the utility.

For an Amateur Radio example, two Red Cross facilities may usually
communicate supply lists by email. If their email fails, Amateur Radio
could step in with WinLink and provide a very similar service. But if
WinLink is not available, the lists could be sent by radio amateurs
using PSK31, voice or, yes, even Morse Code. All depends on what's
available at the time. Getting a list that was sent by voice and is
hand-written might not be exactly the same as getting it by email, but
it will do until the email is working again.

Does amateur radio provide that?

Sometimes (WinLink vs. email) but not usually. But a backup that is
exactly the same as the backed-up service is not essential. In fact, if
the backup is exactly the same, what you have is redundancy.

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

Thus my posting last month quoting an ARRL VP.

I missed that one. Did he overstate?

However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

Agreed.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Why would you care? You ignore Robesin's all caps, accusatory thread
jacking when it happens.

I don't read much of rrap. They're simply too much volume and too
little time. I stopped reading rrap completely for several months
because of all the noise, and reverted to just posting the ARS license
numbers for a while.

Which reminds me - time for the next post in that thread.

Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

Yet some calls still are still getting through. Some calls are
performing emergency comms. No?

Yes! The problem is that cell phone communications may not be available
when most needed.

Massive cell phone system failure can occur when power fails for an
extended time and the backup power runs out.

So if these emergencies aren't really emergencies, then when a no-coder
with a VHF radio steps in where the cell network doesn't cover, the
"emergency" still isn't an emergency.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Fair enough.

Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

It can be.

When it happens.

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

How many years were the shuttles grounded? Lots of time to collect the
wreckage.

But the longer the wreckage was out in the weather, the less
information could be had from it, and the harder it would be to find.
Plus the sooner any information could be gathered, the sooner it could
be acted upon.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

Fair enough.

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...9?dmode=source

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Not all communications surrounding Katrina were emcomms.

Of course.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

"Service to the country" is one reason for the continued existence of
the Amateur Radio Service.

---

Now a question:

- Does the fact that Amateur Radio "provides service to the country"
mean that the ARS is more than "just a hobby"?

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

Are you saying that amateur radio does not perform any service to the
country?

Encapsulated in the briefest meaning, YES.

You're just plain wrong about that, Len.

I disagree with Len on this point. Amateur Radio can be a service to
the country.

I say Amateur Radio does perform service to the country. Not just
"can", but "does".

Every amateur transmission is a service to the country?

Of course not.

Then not all amateur transmissions are a service to the country.

Are all amateurs a service to the country?

Even if all Amateur Radio does is provide a back-up communications
system, that's a service.

A back-up provides exactly the same kind of service as the service that
is being backed up.

Not necessarily. A backup provides a service that can replace the
service that is being backed up, but may not be exactly the same. For
example, when the electrical utility service fails, many people will
depend on candles, lanterns and flashlights for lighting. Those things
aren't exactly the same as what is backed up but they do the job. Of
course a whole-house backup generator is preferable and will deliver
backup electricity that is almost the same as the utility.

For an Amateur Radio example, two Red Cross facilities may usually
communicate supply lists by email. If their email fails, Amateur Radio
could step in with WinLink and provide a very similar service. But if
WinLink is not available, the lists could be sent by radio amateurs
using PSK31, voice or, yes, even Morse Code. All depends on what's
available at the time. Getting a list that was sent by voice and is
hand-written might not be exactly the same as getting it by email, but
it will do until the email is working again.

Does amateur radio provide that?

Sometimes (WinLink vs. email) but not usually. But a backup that is
exactly the same as the backed-up service is not essential. In fact, if
the backup is exactly the same, what you have is redundancy.

At what point does the ICS commander take the amateur radio away from
you and starts communicating on his own?

United States amateur radio could disappear at midnight and
the regular and emergency communications of the USA would
keep on functioning. Police would respond to radio calls,
fire engines would roll, ambulances would be dispatched,
Local governments would continue without pause, already
having lots and lots of radio equipment and operators.
Air traffic would continue, maritime traffic would continue,
trains would still be training, highways would continue to
function (and be repaired/renovated) as needed, all without
ham radio. Cellular telephony would continue (1 in 3
Americans having one), the Internet would continue, landline
telephony would continue. Mass Media (Broadcasting) would
continue unabated. The Forest Service would continue
spotting fires, reporting any via their own radios. River
and Inland Waterways would still have their VHF FM voice
communications. GPSS would continue functioning. NOAA
would still continue with weather information. Emergencies
at sea would still be handled by GMDSS. Emergencies in the
air would still be handled by VHF (over land) and HF voice
(over ocean). Emergencies on land would be handled by a
variety of Public Safety Radio Service facilities, all tied
together in large networks that operate nicely.

That's all true. But it does not mean that Amateur Radio does not
perform any service to the country.

The problem is the amateurs that ramp up the actual service to the
country into a superman complex.

*Some* amateurs certainly overstate things about amateur radio.

Thus my posting last month quoting an ARRL VP.

I missed that one. Did he overstate?

She.

However, to say that Amateur Radio performs no service to the country
is incorrect.

Agreed.

All in the preceding paragraph are INDEPENDENT of amateur
radio, Jimmy. They ARE a definite SERVICE to the USA and
the people within it. Public safety 24/7.

Yet there are times when those communications services are inadequate
for the situation, and Amateur Radio meets the need. That's when
Amateur Radio performs a service to the country.

It can be as simple as using Amateur Radio communication to report a
broken-down vehicle in a spot where cell phones don't work.

No, you can't include this. I was laughed at when I suggested that
cellular telephones handle minor emergencies on a day in and day out
basis.

When was that?

Why would you care? You ignore Robesin's all caps, accusatory thread
jacking when it happens.

I don't read much of rrap. They're simply too much volume and too
little time. I stopped reading rrap completely for several months
because of all the noise, and reverted to just posting the ARS license
numbers for a while.

Which reminds me - time for the next post in that thread.

Cell phones are certainly useful for "minor emergencies". I've made a
few 911 calls from mine.

Where cell phones have a problem is when too many people in the same
area try to use them simultaneously, exceeding the system capacity.

Yet some calls still are still getting through. Some calls are
performing emergency comms. No?

Yes! The problem is that cell phone communications may not be available
when most needed.

Massive cell phone system failure can occur when power fails for an
extended time and the backup power runs out.

That can also render many or most amateur stations inop.

So if these emergencies aren't really emergencies, then when a no-coder
with a VHF radio steps in where the cell network doesn't cover, the
"emergency" still isn't an emergency.

Another example was when the space shuttle disintegrated on reentry a
few years ago. There was an extensive search effort to find pieces of
the wreckage - which were spread over a wide area.

What was the emergency?

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Fair enough.

Emergency communications
is just one part of how Amateur Radio provides service to the country.

It can be.

When it happens.

The crew were beyond saving. The property was beyond saving.

Finding as much wreckage as possible could help prevent another shuttle
disaster.

How many years were the shuttles grounded? Lots of time to collect the
wreckage.

But the longer the wreckage was out in the weather, the less
information could be had from it, and the harder it would be to find.
Plus the sooner any information could be gathered, the sooner it could
be acted upon.

They could have bought it off of ebay.

Some of the communications for the search efforts were conducted by
Amateur Radio, because other facilities were unavailable or did not
meet the needs of the searchers.

So?

So providing communications to the searchers was a service to the
country - even though it wasn't an emergency.

Fair enough.

That's service to the country.

Not by the definition of saving life or property?

Service is about more than emergencies. The radio services listed by
Len include some which are not primarily about emergencies.

Here's a first-person account of a radio amateur who helped with the
Columbia wreckage search:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...9?dmode=source

There are many more examples, from hurricane Katrina to providing
communications for a parade or similar event.

OK, you're finally getting to an emergency.

Public service isn't just about emergencies.

Not all communications surrounding Katrina were emcomms.

Of course.

Your claim that Amateur Radio does not perform any service to the
country is simply not true, Len. It's an error on *your* part - I
didn't make it up.

Just don't overinflate our actual involvement.

Of course.

Read the report on Hurricane Katrina that details what worked and what
didn't. Amateur Radio provided an important service to the country -
according to the authors of the report.

Fair enough.

"Service to the country" is one reason for the continued existence of
the Amateur Radio Service.

---

Now a question:

- Does the fact that Amateur Radio "provides service to the country"
mean that the ARS is more than "just a hobby"?

It can be. ;^)