On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 19:47:18 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:

If CW had not existed at the time, how would things have
turned out differently? If the present GPS-based system
had existed at the time, how would things have turned out?

Since The radio operator of the Titanic knew exactly where they were,
GPS would have made absolutely no difference. If radio hadn't
existed, everyone aboard would have died.

Al Klein wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
If CW had not existed at the time, how would things have
turned out differently? If the present GPS-based system
had existed at the time, how would things have turned out?

Since The radio operator of the Titanic knew exactly where they were,
GPS would have made absolutely no difference. If radio hadn't
existed, everyone aboard would have died.

I'm talking about the emergency GPS-based system now in
operation. Other ships are automatically notified of
emergencies and given headings for reaching the emergency
location. If the Titanic and California had been so equipped,
the California could probably have gotten there before the
Titanic sank. The GPS-based emergency system doesn't go to
sleep like the California's CW operator did. I believe the
California also ignored a flare from the Titanic thinking
it was just part of the maiden voyage celebration.

If radio had not existed, the next passing ship would have
rescued any survivors. That's the way it was for centuries
before the invention of radio. There were often survivors
in lifeboats waiting to be picked up in the shipping lanes.
Well-equipped lifeboats could survive for weeks in calm
waters as did the ejected sailors of "Bounty" fame.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
news
Al Klein wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
If CW had not existed at the time, how would things have
turned out differently? If the present GPS-based system
had existed at the time, how would things have turned out?

Since The radio operator of the Titanic knew exactly where they were,
GPS would have made absolutely no difference. If radio hadn't
existed, everyone aboard would have died.

I'm talking about the emergency GPS-based system now in
operation. Other ships are automatically notified of
emergencies and given headings for reaching the emergency
location. If the Titanic and California had been so equipped,
the California could probably have gotten there before the
Titanic sank. The GPS-based emergency system doesn't go to
sleep like the California's CW operator did. I believe the
California also ignored a flare from the Titanic thinking
it was just part of the maiden voyage celebration.

If radio had not existed, the next passing ship would have
rescued any survivors. That's the way it was for centuries
before the invention of radio. There were often survivors
in lifeboats waiting to be picked up in the shipping lanes.
Well-equipped lifeboats could survive for weeks in calm
waters as did the ejected sailors of "Bounty" fame.

The men put off the Bounty did not survive with ease but only through very
hard work and the superb seamanship and leadership of Captain Bligh.
Although he was an absolute ass while in command of the Bounty, but his
performance was superb during that time.

And life boats floating in the shipping lanes could capsize in rough weather
or drift out of the shipping lanes. We will never know how many people died
at sea in such boats after surviving the loss of the ship.

The various technological improvements, including radio, have been important
in improving the survival odds.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 13:06:29 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:

I'm talking about the emergency GPS-based system now in
operation. Other ships are automatically notified of
emergencies and given headings for reaching the emergency
location. If the Titanic and California had been so equipped,
the California could probably have gotten there before the
Titanic sank. The GPS-based emergency system doesn't go to
sleep like the California's CW operator did.

Oh, you mean he didn't hear the automatic annunciator they had in use
in those days? Mechanical and clunky, but it worked.

The only thing the GPS-based system does is give you an exact location
- it doesn't notify anyone of anything. Plain old radio does that,
the same as it did back then.

If radio had not existed, the next passing ship would have
rescued any survivors. That's the way it was for centuries
before the invention of radio.

The way it usually was in the centuries before radio (just ask the
crew of the Nuestra Senora de Atocha) was that when the ship sank the
people on her died. (The Atocha's crew were all hardened sailors, yet
only 3 crew members - out of 265 people aboard - clung to the wreckage
long enough to be rescued.)

There were often survivors
in lifeboats waiting to be picked up in the shipping lanes.
Well-equipped lifeboats could survive for weeks in calm
waters as did the ejected sailors of "Bounty" fame.

1) There weren't enough lifeboats in the Titanic.
2) They weren't "equipped".
3) The crew of the bounty were sailors used to pulling oars for hours
at a time. The passengers of the Titanic - those who were allowed to
get to the lifeboats - were pampered women and children, not used to,
or able to, row a heavy wooden lifeboat anywhere.
4) People who are wet and in their night clothes - most of those who
made it to the lifeboats - don't survive very long in sub-Arctic
climes.

But it's nice to reminisce about what happened, even if it never did.

Al Klein wrote:
The only thing the GPS-based system does is give you an exact location
- it doesn't notify anyone of anything.

"EPIRB - Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons, or EPIRBs,
are used when a ship is in distress, to emit a radio signal
marking the ship's location."

If radio had not existed, the next passing ship would have
rescued any survivors.

The way it usually was in the centuries before radio (just ask the
crew of the Nuestra Senora de Atocha) was that when the ship sank the
people on her died. (The Atocha's crew were all hardened sailors, yet
only 3 crew members - out of 265 people aboard - clung to the wreckage
long enough to be rescued.)

Yes, that's what I said. Passing ships rescue survivors.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:15:26 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:
The only thing the GPS-based system does is give you an exact location
- it doesn't notify anyone of anything.

"EPIRB - Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons, or EPIRBs,
are used when a ship is in distress, to emit a radio signal
marking the ship's location."

GPS systems are receivers. Transmitters that use GPS-derived data
aren't GPS-based systems, they're transmitter-based systems. No
transmitter, no notification. No GPS, notification is a little less
accurate, that's all.

If radio had not existed, the next passing ship would have
rescued any survivors.

The way it usually was in the centuries before radio (just ask the
crew of the Nuestra Senora de Atocha) was that when the ship sank the
people on her died. (The Atocha's crew were all hardened sailors, yet
only 3 crew members - out of 265 people aboard - clung to the wreckage
long enough to be rescued.)

Yes, that's what I said. Passing ships rescue survivors.

Or, in this case, ships that were part of the same flotilla (they
didn't have to have any luck in being in the area) only managed to
rescue about 1% of the survivors. If they had waited for "passing
ships", their grandchildren would have been too old for rescue. Most
shipwreck survivors who are rescued aren't rescued by ships that just
happen to be passing, they're rescued by ships that knew about the
wreck and responded. (Before radio, most shipwreck survivors weren't
rescued.)

Al Klein wrote:
Transmitters that use GPS-derived data aren't GPS-based systems, ...

Huh???? Can you prove that assertion? :-)

Most
shipwreck survivors who are rescued aren't rescued by ships that just
happen to be passing, they're rescued by ships that knew about the
wreck and responded. (Before radio, most shipwreck survivors weren't
rescued.)

All that is true. If one was away from the shipping lanes,
one was SOL or USCWAP. However, if one was in the shipping
lanes with a flare, one at least had a chance of being
rescued. According to my nephew, one of our ancestors was
rescued in such a manner. Presumably, if that had not
happened, neither he nor I would exist.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 20:38:39 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:
Transmitters that use GPS-derived data aren't GPS-based systems, ...

Huh???? Can you prove that assertion? :-)

The notification systems are radio-based. Notification isn't made by
GPS. We had radio-based notification systems long before we had the
GPS.

If one was away from the shipping lanes,
one was SOL or USCWAP. However, if one was in the shipping
lanes with a flare, one at least had a chance of being
rescued.

Once flares had been invented. We've been sailing the seas for at
least 4,000 years, over 3,500 of them without radios, flares or other
means of communications to ships or land installations we couldn't
already see.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:37:48 -0400, Al Klein
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 19:47:18 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:

If CW had not existed at the time, how would things have
turned out differently? If the present GPS-based system
had existed at the time, how would things have turned out?

Since The radio operator of the Titanic knew exactly where they were,
GPS would have made absolutely no difference. If radio hadn't
existed, everyone aboard would have died.
try onstar.... superior to IMC !


--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

"Buck" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:37:48 -0400, Al Klein
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 19:47:18 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:

If CW had not existed at the time, how would things have
turned out differently? If the present GPS-based system
had existed at the time, how would things have turned out?

Since The radio operator of the Titanic knew exactly where they were,
GPS would have made absolutely no difference. If radio hadn't
existed, everyone aboard would have died.
try onstar.... superior to IMC !


--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

I am not so sure about that. My first and only experience with Onstar - was
not a very good impression. The "phone system" didn't dial out for crap - by
the time you got it to accept the "right" number, you could be dead. Three
people in the vehicle called out the number to the sytem a minimum of 5
times each before one of us finally got it to dial. I'm not sure how the
other part (emergency locator and response) would have worked as it was
never tried. Maybe it works ok in some areas and not others, like cell
phones, I don't know - I'm not "that" familiar with it, but that was my
experience, limited as it was. I know others seem to have good reports.

Code - has had it's place in history - be it with the Titanic however it
helped - to maybe others stranded. We don't know about any (or many)
"military" use(s) where it may have helped out, we don't always hear about
those things. Is CODE the "saviour" of the world? NO. Each mode or language
if you choose to call it that - has it's own heroic moment at some point.
Even Smoke Signals (if truly used/existed) probably had SOME helpful value.
In a sense, smoke signals STILL exist. They use them at the Vatican to
signify certain events - more notibly the death of a Pope. Simply put - you
use what you have available at the moment - be it smoke signals, sun light
off a mirror, code, fax, voice, drums, whatever. Anything is better than
nothing in time of need. Seriously, I don't understand the argument over
Code. Times change, things change. We could argue the use of the smoke at
the Vatican when a PA system would do the same job.

With each advance in technology, something goes off the shelf and tossed
aside or if kept on the shelf, gets serious dust collections due to little
if any use. Electricity replaced candles and lanterns for the most part -
though not completely. The Telephone didn't automatically discontinue all
other forms of communication - ie, code. The fax and e-mail have not yet
altogether replaced "mail" but some day it may. We as a whole can choose to
keep something by "using" it or losing it by NOT using it. Things just don't
disappear overnight. IF ya like code - USE IT. IF ya don't, then don't worry
about it. "IF" you need it to get a license - 5 wpm is not that hard. You
won't get it by osmosis. It takes some determination. Just like studying the
book. Nothing in life is worth much if just handed to you. There are myriads
of things we "must" learn in life which may never be used again - it goes
with the territory of life and getting through it. I had to take a course in
college once to jump through their hoops. Have I ever used it since? HELL
NO. No plan to - either.

As to the Titanic operator being a smart ass as someone alluded to in here -
maybe he was just losing his cool (very afraid) and trying desperately to
get help and felt any other signals were just going to interfere. I don't
know - just my own supposition. People do strange things in an emergency and
staring death in the eye IS an emergency. Maybe he screwed up, maybe things
could have went differently - we'll never know. FATE has a strange way of
playing out in all our lives. We can argue all night long over the "would
haves and could haves". Nothing will change that course of history. The fact
remains, he at least got the word out and SOME people were saved. ALL could
have been lost - were he killed prior to the sending of the message AND if
no one else aboard knew how to operate the equipment. He was just a "player"
in the scheme of things. Had they not hit the iceberg by whatever faulty(?)
piloting or directions being given in the first place, the Radio Operator
wouldn't even be the issue. We had an incident here when I was but a teen. A
"firefighter" had a problem - losing his cool, he got on the radio and said
"Clear the airwaves, we have a national emergency". Yes, they had a problem,
not of "national" proportion, but he lost his cool and went overboard in
what he did with the radio. People - even stone hard natured people - panic
given the right scenario. FRIGHT exists in all of us - at some time. Panic
is the response.

GPS, CODE, ONSTAR - NOTHING (except perhaps radar or sonar) would have told
them the icebergs were there. Even if they knew they were in a section of
water where there were "known" icebergs that they could have steered away
from, - as we know - icebergs can and DO break off - so this one "could"
have been such a case. It was a doomed mission just as any that the
Astronauts have been killed on - even with all the so-called advanced
technology and communications at their disposal. Any number of people could
be pointed to or "what ifs" asked. The point is, the end is still the same.
People died. In the latter case, NO amount of radio comms modes would have
made a difference. Just like the spotting of the iceberg at the last
minute - so too was the spotting of the problem in the heat shield and
equipment - aboard the shuttle - too little - too late - with or without
radio - regardless the mode.

Just my 2 cents.

Lou/Ka3flu