On Nov 16, 7:43 pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,



wrote:
On Nov 16, 9:54 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In


posted on Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:54:03 -0800 (PST), Steve wrote: Begin

On Nov 16, 12:03 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

But isn't knob twirling and button pushing
an accepted part of the allure of SW DXing?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, it's accepted. It's accepted because it's inevitable, but I don't
think anyone wants to there to be any more knob twiddling and button
pushing than is necessary to get the job done.

My point was that playing with the knobs and features is an integral
component of the joy of 'digging 'em out', otherwise someone would just
tune to a local broadcast for set it and forget it entertainment.

Here is the short explanation. Old farts can't handle the ar7030
menus. if you understand computers, the menus are not an issue. What
the menus do buy you is a compact radio, since you don't need all the
space for buttons and knobs. Again, I'll repeat, I never use the
remote. The menus are quite easy to use.

Look I've been through this. I have purchased 10's of millions of
dollars in test equipment that operate in different ways and the
preference that all users of that equipment have shown to me is a knob
or button for every function. People do not want to go through menus to
get to some operating function. These people are engineers and
technicians.

And I'll repeat that if you don't use the remote you are just plain
dumb. Sure the menus are just fine but you can push a button on the
remote that take several button pushes on the front panel so why go that
route.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Eh, I've bought my share of test eq too. I like the menus if they are
done well. Hp started to use soft buttons in the 80s and hasn't gone
back.

In article
,
wrote:

On Nov 16, 7:43 pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,



wrote:
On Nov 16, 9:54 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

.com

posted on Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:54:03 -0800 (PST), Steve wrote: Begin

On Nov 16, 12:03 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

But isn't knob twirling and button pushing
an accepted part of the allure of SW DXing?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, it's accepted. It's accepted because it's inevitable, but I don't
think anyone wants to there to be any more knob twiddling and button
pushing than is necessary to get the job done.

My point was that playing with the knobs and features is an integral
component of the joy of 'digging 'em out', otherwise someone would just
tune to a local broadcast for set it and forget it entertainment.

Here is the short explanation. Old farts can't handle the ar7030
menus. if you understand computers, the menus are not an issue. What
the menus do buy you is a compact radio, since you don't need all the
space for buttons and knobs. Again, I'll repeat, I never use the
remote. The menus are quite easy to use.

Look I've been through this. I have purchased 10's of millions of
dollars in test equipment that operate in different ways and the
preference that all users of that equipment have shown to me is a knob
or button for every function. People do not want to go through menus to
get to some operating function. These people are engineers and
technicians.

And I'll repeat that if you don't use the remote you are just plain
dumb. Sure the menus are just fine but you can push a button on the
remote that take several button pushes on the front panel so why go that
route.


Eh, I've bought my share of test eq too. I like the menus if they are
done well. Hp started to use soft buttons in the 80s and hasn't gone
back.

Yes and since HP, then Agilent went the way of the menu they lost a lot
of sales to Anritsu that made comparable equipment with a knob or button
for every function. Personally I didn't care but most other people did
care and so it goes.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

wrote:
On Nov 16, 9:54 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

posted on Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:54:03 -0800 (PST), Steve wrote: Begin

On Nov 16, 12:03 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In
But isn't knob twirling and button pushing
an accepted part of the allure of SW DXing?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Yes, it's accepted. It's accepted because it's inevitable, but I don't
think anyone wants to there to be any more knob twiddling and button
pushing than is necessary to get the job done.
My point was that playing with the knobs and features is an integral
component of the joy of 'digging 'em out', otherwise someone would just
tune to a local broadcast for set it and forget it entertainment.

Here is the short explanation. Old farts can't handle the ar7030
menus. if you understand computers, the menus are not an issue. What
the menus do buy you is a compact radio, since you don't need all the
space for buttons and knobs. Again, I'll repeat, I never use the
remote. The menus are quite easy to use.




And this Old Farte finds no problem with the menu trees at all.

wrote:
On Nov 16, 3:31 pm, wrote:
Here is the short explanation. Old farts can't handle the ar7030
menus. if you understand computers, the menus are not an issue. What
the menus do buy you is a compact radio, since you don't need all the
space for buttons and knobs. Again, I'll repeat, I never use the
remote. The menus are quite easy to use.

I have no doubt that the menus are easy to use--that's not the issue.
My concern is that they're tedious to use. Having to go through a menu
to get to a function just can't compare to having a dedicated control
for that function.


The menues are adaptive....that is, the functions you use most often
are nearer the top. There isn't any tedious hunting. And you can set
preferences for nearly every frequency you use.

My recommendation is to use one for a while. Not just around the
block. For a weekend.

After a while, the menu trees become not only second nature, but
transparent. And most functions you prefer to use are near the top.

The menu trees are really not an issue on this radio.

On Nov 17, 5:35 pm, D Peter Maus wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 16, 3:31 pm, wrote:
Here is the short explanation. Old farts can't handle the ar7030
menus. if you understand computers, the menus are not an issue. What
the menus do buy you is a compact radio, since you don't need all the
space for buttons and knobs. Again, I'll repeat, I never use the
remote. The menus are quite easy to use.

I have no doubt that the menus are easy to use--that's not the issue.
My concern is that they're tedious to use. Having to go through a menu
to get to a function just can't compare to having a dedicated control
for that function.

The menues are adaptive....that is, the functions you use most often
are nearer the top. There isn't any tedious hunting. And you can set
preferences for nearly every frequency you use.

My recommendation is to use one for a while. Not just around the
block. For a weekend.

After a while, the menu trees become not only second nature, but
transparent. And most functions you prefer to use are near the top.

The menu trees are really not an issue on this radio.

I agree with you here. It does become second nature. There's nothing
cognitively challenging or demanding about the menu structure *at
all*. However, from the point of view of ergonomics it literally boils
down to a matter of efficiency and economy of hand movements, as is so
often the case in this area. But this is still a minor nit to pick
with what is unquestionably an outstanding receiver.

Steve

On Nov 17, 2:27 pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,



wrote:
On Nov 16, 7:43 pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,

wrote:
On Nov 16, 9:54 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

.com

posted on Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:54:03 -0800 (PST), Steve wrote: Begin

On Nov 16, 12:03 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

But isn't knob twirling and button pushing
an accepted part of the allure of SW DXing?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, it's accepted. It's accepted because it's inevitable, but I don't
think anyone wants to there to be any more knob twiddling and button
pushing than is necessary to get the job done.

My point was that playing with the knobs and features is an integral
component of the joy of 'digging 'em out', otherwise someone would just
tune to a local broadcast for set it and forget it entertainment.

Here is the short explanation. Old farts can't handle the ar7030
menus. if you understand computers, the menus are not an issue. What
the menus do buy you is a compact radio, since you don't need all the
space for buttons and knobs. Again, I'll repeat, I never use the
remote. The menus are quite easy to use.

Look I've been through this. I have purchased 10's of millions of
dollars in test equipment that operate in different ways and the
preference that all users of that equipment have shown to me is a knob
or button for every function. People do not want to go through menus to
get to some operating function. These people are engineers and
technicians.

And I'll repeat that if you don't use the remote you are just plain
dumb. Sure the menus are just fine but you can push a button on the
remote that take several button pushes on the front panel so why go that
route.

Eh, I've bought my share of test eq too. I like the menus if they are
done well. Hp started to use soft buttons in the 80s and hasn't gone
back.

Yes and since HP, then Agilent went the way of the menu they lost a lot
of sales to Anritsu that made comparable equipment with a knob or button
for every function. Personally I didn't care but most other people did
care and so it goes.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Oh please. If you don't see Agilent gear in the lab, it's Rhodes and
Schwartz.

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:26:01 -0800 (PST), wrote:


Yes and since HP, then Agilent went the way of the menu they lost a lot
of sales to Anritsu that made comparable equipment with a knob or button
for every function. Personally I didn't care but most other people did
care and so it goes.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Oh please. If you don't see Agilent gear in the lab, it's Rhodes and
Schwartz.

My Anritsu is lousy with soft keys.

This thread seems to have migrated from a DSP vs. analog discussion to
one of ergonomics of buttons/knobs vs. menus.

What I'd really like to know is if there's any significant reason to
prefer a DSP-based receiver (e.g. the 756Pro-III) over an analog
receiver (e.g. AOR 7030+) on the basic of receiving performance.

Here's where I perceive DSP receivers to have the advantage:

* Sharper, narrower filters without artifacts (e.g. ringing)
* Easy updates via software download (TenTec supports this, does Icom?
(I doubt it))


and for analog:

* Higher dynamic range than most DSP receivers
* Lower cost (typically)
* Better audio


I had a chance to sit down and use a 756Pro-III for a few hours this
weekend, and I must say the spectrum scope is an addictive feature!

On Nov 19, 2:25 pm, wrote:
This thread seems to have migrated from a DSP vs. analog discussion to
one of ergonomics of buttons/knobs vs. menus.

What I'd really like to know is if there's any significant reason to
prefer a DSP-based receiver (e.g. the 756Pro-III) over an analog
receiver (e.g. AOR 7030+) on the basic of receiving performance.

Here's where I perceive DSP receivers to have the advantage:

* Sharper, narrower filters without artifacts (e.g. ringing)
* Easy updates via software download (TenTec supports this, does Icom?
(I doubt it))

and for analog:

* Higher dynamic range than most DSP receivers
* Lower cost (typically)
* Better audio

I had a chance to sit down and use a 756Pro-III for a few hours this
weekend, and I must say the spectrum scope is an addictive feature!

Digital filters ring unless they are sloppy. IIR filters ring. FIR
filters don't ring IF the tap coefficients are all positive, but then
the filter is sloppy. With DSP you have more control over the
bandwidth, but no freedom from ringing.

I don't think the 7030 is all that cheap once you buy the filter
daughter board and some crystal filters. The filters don't just
materialize in the radio. You need to solder them or pay someone to do
it.

In article
,
wrote:

On Nov 17, 2:27 pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,



wrote:
On Nov 16, 7:43 pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,

wrote:
On Nov 16, 9:54 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

oups
.com

posted on Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:54:03 -0800 (PST), Steve wrote: Begin

On Nov 16, 12:03 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

But isn't knob twirling and button pushing
an accepted part of the allure of SW DXing?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, it's accepted. It's accepted because it's inevitable, but I
don't
think anyone wants to there to be any more knob twiddling and
button
pushing than is necessary to get the job done.

My point was that playing with the knobs and features is an
integral
component of the joy of 'digging 'em out', otherwise someone would
just
tune to a local broadcast for set it and forget it entertainment.

Here is the short explanation. Old farts can't handle the ar7030
menus. if you understand computers, the menus are not an issue. What
the menus do buy you is a compact radio, since you don't need all the
space for buttons and knobs. Again, I'll repeat, I never use the
remote. The menus are quite easy to use.

Look I've been through this. I have purchased 10's of millions of
dollars in test equipment that operate in different ways and the
preference that all users of that equipment have shown to me is a knob
or button for every function. People do not want to go through menus to
get to some operating function. These people are engineers and
technicians.

And I'll repeat that if you don't use the remote you are just plain
dumb. Sure the menus are just fine but you can push a button on the
remote that take several button pushes on the front panel so why go
that
route.

Eh, I've bought my share of test eq too. I like the menus if they are
done well. Hp started to use soft buttons in the 80s and hasn't gone
back.

Yes and since HP, then Agilent went the way of the menu they lost a lot
of sales to Anritsu that made comparable equipment with a knob or button
for every function. Personally I didn't care but most other people did
care and so it goes.


Oh please. If you don't see Agilent gear in the lab, it's Rhodes and
Schwartz.

The big players in test equipment I have bought from are HP/Agilent,
Rhode & Schwarz, and Tektronix, Anritsu, and Wiltron.

R&S is now a part of Tektronix and Wiltron is now a part of Anritsu.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California