On Apr 18, 1:26�am, Bob Dobbs wrote:
Telamon wrote:
Well, how about analog? I have some hiss in there all the time and often
times warbling rumble kind of noise.

There's some hiss in analog
but it goes away when the HD locks
I haven't heard any rumbling but I'm over a hundred miles away
down here on the border, and on the other side of the station from you
so it could be something up your way.
There are a few times when it seems I hear a transient echo but I think
that the audio version of temporary digital corruption (QSB related?)
like what would be seen as pixelation when it occurs on TV.

--

Operator Bob
Echo Charlie 42

"FCC to Consider Raising FM-HD Power Levels"

"Why would radio stations take the risk of degrading the quality of
their existing analog service in order to pimp a flawed technology
which nobody's listening to? It's almost as if the strategy of the HD
Radio Alliance is to degrade analog radio service in order to force
digital adoption - kind of a variant on the 'we had to destroy the
village to save it' rationale."

http://tinyurl.com/67bgv7

iBiquity is trying to force digital adoption.

In article ,
dave wrote:

Telamon wrote:


Well, how about analog? I have some hiss in there all the time and often
times warbling rumble kind of noise. It's very annoying and I wish they
would turn that HD crap off.


The IBOC signal is either side of the AM carrier. Each IBOC sideband is
identical but out-of-phase with the other. The theory is the IBOC
sidebands cancel each other out in your receiver. But if one sideband
propagates better than the other (which is always the case once you get
a few miles from the transmitter) the cancellation is not complete.
This is when you hear the digital hash and the wubba-wubba sound.

For those of us using a radio with selectable sideband synchronous
detection, but unable to choose USB and LSB at the same time (like my
Drake SW2) we are forced to listen in plain AM.

Clear Channel has 2 full blown flamethrowers crippled by IBOC in
California now. It's a shame. Citadel gets it. KGO and KKOH do not
use IBOC at night. KFI and KFBK do, and it really diminishes their signals.

They sound terrible in either side band selectable sync turned on with
the Drakes. There is significant low frequency noises that are not
easily describable along with the usual high frequency hiss. Kind of a
low frequency rushing sound like water through a pipe. This sucks.

Now the only radio I have they still sound halfway decent on is the
RX340 with its brick wall DSP filters. I can barely hear the low
frequency noise and the high frequency hiss is minimized in AM mode.

So here is the upshot:
The worst sound is on the Drakes with side band selectable sync turned
on. Next worse is with the AM sync on so the best is just AM mode with
no sync. Same for the AR7030+ except it does not have the selectable
side band sync. The best is the RX340 where both the low frequency noise
and the high frequency hiss is not as prominent.

I'm complaining to KFI about this.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article 49eb5ac5.4793609@chupacabra,
Bob Dobbs wrote:

dave wrote:
Telamon wrote:


Well, how about analog? I have some hiss in there all the time and often
times warbling rumble kind of noise. It's very annoying and I wish they
would turn that HD crap off.


The IBOC signal is either side of the AM carrier. Each IBOC sideband is
identical but out-of-phase with the other. The theory is the IBOC
sidebands cancel each other out in your receiver. But if one sideband
propagates better than the other (which is always the case once you get
a few miles from the transmitter) the cancellation is not complete.
This is when you hear the digital hash and the wubba-wubba sound.

For those of us using a radio with selectable sideband synchronous
detection, but unable to choose USB and LSB at the same time (like my
Drake SW2) we are forced to listen in plain AM.

Sometime ago when KOGO 600 first went to band hog mode (IBOC-HD)
I tuned in to see just how bad it was and noticed that rumbling you
mentioned with the whip collapsed on the E1 for weak signal simulation,
but the DSB synch would remedy it, same with KNX.


I just tried KOGO 600, KFI 640, KNX 1070 and turning on the sync
detector didn't do anything to improve the audio. AM sounded the best.

Turning on side band selectable sync causes horrendous low frequency
noise.

By the way Australia is currently good on 17,795 as is NZ on 15,720.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

On Apr 18, 7:12�pm, Bob Dobbs wrote:
Telamon wrote:

I'm complaining to KFI about this.

Their programming sucks worse than their signal.
Biggest improvement KFI could make
would be to get rid of Dr Laura and Rush.
Then bring back Tom Leykis.

--

Operator Bob
Echo Charlie 42

Dr. Laura is very abusive with callers.

In article
,
Telamon wrote:

In article ,
dave wrote:

Telamon wrote:


Well, how about analog? I have some hiss in there all the time and often
times warbling rumble kind of noise. It's very annoying and I wish they
would turn that HD crap off.


The IBOC signal is either side of the AM carrier. Each IBOC sideband is
identical but out-of-phase with the other. The theory is the IBOC
sidebands cancel each other out in your receiver. But if one sideband
propagates better than the other (which is always the case once you get
a few miles from the transmitter) the cancellation is not complete.
This is when you hear the digital hash and the wubba-wubba sound.

For those of us using a radio with selectable sideband synchronous
detection, but unable to choose USB and LSB at the same time (like my
Drake SW2) we are forced to listen in plain AM.

Clear Channel has 2 full blown flamethrowers crippled by IBOC in
California now. It's a shame. Citadel gets it. KGO and KKOH do not
use IBOC at night. KFI and KFBK do, and it really diminishes their signals.

They sound terrible in either side band selectable sync turned on with
the Drakes. There is significant low frequency noises that are not
easily describable along with the usual high frequency hiss. Kind of a
low frequency rushing sound like water through a pipe. This sucks.

Now the only radio I have they still sound halfway decent on is the
RX340 with its brick wall DSP filters. I can barely hear the low
frequency noise and the high frequency hiss is minimized in AM mode.

So here is the upshot:
The worst sound is on the Drakes with side band selectable sync turned
on. Next worse is with the AM sync on so the best is just AM mode with
no sync. Same for the AR7030+ except it does not have the selectable
side band sync. The best is the RX340 where both the low frequency noise
and the high frequency hiss is not as prominent.

I'm complaining to KFI about this.


I got a response from KFI already. Their online technical person Ernie
Kristof said he would pass my comments along to the chief engineer Terry
Grieger.

If you don't like the IBOC signal then tell the stations about it. If
they get enough complaints maybe they will turn it off.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article 49eb67a9.8093437@chupacabra,
Bob Dobbs wrote:

Telamon wrote:

I just tried KOGO 600, KFI 640, KNX 1070 and turning on the sync
detector didn't do anything to improve the audio. AM sounded the best.

Turning on side band selectable sync causes horrendous low frequency
noise.

Have you got an E1 or something that will do DSB sync?
As berated as the E1 has been, that's a seldom mentioned plus.
I think the Grundig G3 does it too.

The Drake R8B, AR7030+, and RX340 all have DSB sync.

The Drake R8B and the RX340 have in addition side band selectable sync.

The Sony 7600G only has side band selectable sync.

Same story on all radios. Side band selectable sync generates a lot of
this hard to describe low frequency rushing noise.

Any attempt to shift the passband to get better high frequency response
just increase the high frequency hissing noise.

It's not great but so far the best thing is just AM, no sync, and
passband centered.

Now I'm going to go check the car radio. I'll drive around a bit and see
how it sounds.

By the Australia is now best on 17,715. 17,795 is not bad and NZ is
still good on 15,720.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article 49ec5d5a.5454640@chupacabra,
Bob Dobbs wrote:

Telamon wrote:

I'm complaining to KFI about this.

Their programming sucks worse than their signal.
Biggest improvement KFI could make
would be to get rid of Dr Laura and Rush.
Then bring back Tom Leykis.

I can agree on Dr Laura. Rush I listen to once in a while. Usually when
I decide to listen to him there is usually a guest in his place. Just
luck I guess. Tom Leykis belongs under the biggest rock on the planet in
a very dark place.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article
,
Telamon wrote:

In article 49eb67a9.8093437@chupacabra,
Bob Dobbs wrote:

Telamon wrote:

I just tried KOGO 600, KFI 640, KNX 1070 and turning on the sync
detector didn't do anything to improve the audio. AM sounded the best.

Turning on side band selectable sync causes horrendous low frequency
noise.

Have you got an E1 or something that will do DSB sync?
As berated as the E1 has been, that's a seldom mentioned plus.
I think the Grundig G3 does it too.

The Drake R8B, AR7030+, and RX340 all have DSB sync.

The Drake R8B and the RX340 have in addition side band selectable sync.

The Sony 7600G only has side band selectable sync.

Same story on all radios. Side band selectable sync generates a lot of
this hard to describe low frequency rushing noise.

Any attempt to shift the passband to get better high frequency response
just increase the high frequency hissing noise.

It's not great but so far the best thing is just AM, no sync, and
passband centered.

Now I'm going to go check the car radio. I'll drive around a bit and see
how it sounds.

By the Australia is now best on 17,715. 17,795 is not bad and NZ is
still good on 15,720.

KFI sounds just fine on the car radio. I even turned up the treble and
could not hear the hiss. The stereo in the car is the top end that was
offered at the time for the model with tweeters in the door columns.

They just sound bad on top end table top radios.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

"Bob Dobbs" wrote in message
news:49eb5ac5.4793609@chupacabra...
dave wrote:
Telamon wrote:


Well, how about analog? I have some hiss in there all the time and often
times warbling rumble kind of noise. It's very annoying and I wish they
would turn that HD crap off.


The IBOC signal is either side of the AM carrier. Each IBOC sideband is
identical but out-of-phase with the other. The theory is the IBOC
sidebands cancel each other out in your receiver. But if one sideband
propagates better than the other (which is always the case once you get
a few miles from the transmitter) the cancellation is not complete.
This is when you hear the digital hash and the wubba-wubba sound.

For those of us using a radio with selectable sideband synchronous
detection, but unable to choose USB and LSB at the same time (like my
Drake SW2) we are forced to listen in plain AM.



The theory doesn't even work well within the local signal area, since almost
no radios use a detector that detects both sides of the envelope. Therefore,
you have only one sideband being detected, and the IBOC hash will be present
under the analog program material if the radio is sufficiently broadband
(more than about 8 KHz).

Brenda Ann wrote:


"Bob Dobbs" wrote in message
news:49eb5ac5.4793609@chupacabra...
dave wrote:
Telamon wrote:


Well, how about analog? I have some hiss in there all the time and
often times warbling rumble kind of noise. It's very annoying and I
wish they would turn that HD crap off.


The IBOC signal is either side of the AM carrier. Each IBOC sideband is
identical but out-of-phase with the other. The theory is the IBOC
sidebands cancel each other out in your receiver. But if one sideband
propagates better than the other (which is always the case once you get
a few miles from the transmitter) the cancellation is not complete.
This is when you hear the digital hash and the wubba-wubba sound.

For those of us using a radio with selectable sideband synchronous
detection, but unable to choose USB and LSB at the same time (like my
Drake SW2) we are forced to listen in plain AM.



The theory doesn't even work well within the local signal area, since
almost no radios use a detector that detects both sides of the envelope.
Therefore, you have only one sideband being detected, and the IBOC hash
will be present under the analog program material if the radio is
sufficiently broadband (more than about 8 KHz).

Most AM radios detect the signals on both sides of the carrier. I know of no
commonly available radio that doesn't operate that way in the AM mode.

Detecting the positive or negative side of the AM envelope in the time
domain does not equate to detecting USB or LSB. (i.e., a simple diode
detector.)

The need for DSB in the sync mode is to cancel out components of the digital
signal in the passband of the radio, not deal with the bulk of the digital
signal that is well outside of the passband.