On 7/26/2010 12:31 PM, D. Peter Maus wrote:
On 7/25/10 22:57 , Gregg wrote:



What you describe is something that happens and has happened in
subdivisions/developments/communities across the culture.

"White Flight" is nothing new. In fact, it was actively cultivated by
real estate brokers in communities throughout the 50's and 60's. The
reason had less to do with race, and more to do with profit. Sell whites
on the fear, offer them fresh properties in the suburbs, handle the
sales and purchases on each end, turn around and handle the purchase of
the city properties by the new class moving in. Fortunes were made.

That said, the new class need not be black to lower the standard of
living in a community. Two of the communities I grew up in are now run
down, lower end communities. And race is not involved. Both were new
construction, higher end, communities when we moved in. Today, in the
later one (where we moved in in the late 60's,) home prices have fallen,
the state of repair is poor, and 30% of homes have been declared unfit
for habitation.

Time is a bitch. And it levels all playing fields.

The previous community, into which we moved in '55, are now lower end,
now starter homes, though still nice homes as a whole, and, again,
racial components are not involved.

The phenomenon is driven by a lot of things. One is, that the monied are
often driven by new construction, fresher locales, and distance from the
madding crowd. While lower end buyers must buy within their budget, or
rent. That means existing, older homes, from which the monied have moved
for newer environs.

Race need not apply.

Now, there were blacks moving into the second community where I grew up.
And there was considerable noise about them. But the unrecognized
reality was that their homes were better maintained and landscaped, and
they often had nicer, if not more interesting, cars in the garage. All
of which may have been motivated by an intent to avoid falling into
stereotype. Without the over-and-above, they would have fit right in to
the existing environment without a hitch.

But these were not people who were put into these homes by 'block
busting commitees.' They bought, and mortgaged, their homes themselves,
based on their own qualifications. Blockbuster homes were often bought
by the committee, and then spun to the occupants with assistance to
those who could not otherwise afford to live in the neighborhood. That's
what led to the stereotype.

Even in those cases, the problems were not with blacks moving into the
homes, but with the committees putting them into homes that they could
not rightly afford, and couldn't maintain.

Now, your communty's situation may be different than mine. Likely it is.
But it's hardly a hard case of racially caused decay. Community decay
dates to the Greeks and Romans. It's part of the process of evolution of
a community. The case is more likely the politically motivated ignorance
of realties that put people into homes the couldn't afford to maintain
than it is the race of the people themselves.



Nicely put Peter. In my neck of the world, the Hill District, is the so
called local getto. too many years ago, it was home to the captains of
industry. coal barons, steel magnets, etc. big beautiful homes, churches
looking like they belonged in old europe. and, as always does, the money
was lured out of the city, you can check/ read the history of the
first Johnstown flood. and other places in our mountains of western PA.
the homes left behind were mostly made into many apartment set-ups.
most people living in the city, blue collar, needed to be near their
work. and so it goes. max profit, little over all up keep. in a matter
of a generation, the large beautiful homes and the nice locals were a
slum. and so it now goes in the so called rust belt. BTW, the Hill
is the Hill Street station from the old cop series. "Hill Street Blues"
the main writer was an x cop from the burg.

BTW, on the way home from Indy, a bunch of us stopped to see "The Eye".
Peter, I love it! took a bunch of pix. always enjoy Chicago food too.

Drifter...

On Jul 26, 3:32*pm, Drifter wrote:
On 7/26/2010 12:31 PM, D. Peter Maus wrote:





On 7/25/10 22:57 , Gregg wrote:

What you describe is something that happens and has happened in
subdivisions/developments/communities across the culture.

"White Flight" is nothing new. In fact, it was actively cultivated by
real estate brokers in communities throughout the 50's and 60's. The
reason had less to do with race, and more to do with profit. Sell whites
on the fear, offer them fresh properties in the suburbs, handle the
sales and purchases on each end, turn around and handle the purchase of
the city properties by the new class moving in. Fortunes were made.

That said, the new class need not be black to lower the standard of
living in a community. Two of the communities I grew up in are now run
down, lower end communities. And race is not involved. Both were new
construction, higher end, communities when we moved in. Today, in the
later one (where we moved in in the late 60's,) home prices have fallen,
the state of repair is poor, and 30% of homes have been declared unfit
for habitation.

Time is a bitch. And it levels all playing fields.

The previous community, into which we moved in '55, are now lower end,
now starter homes, though still nice homes as a whole, and, again,
racial components are not involved.

The phenomenon is driven by a lot of things. One is, that the monied are
often driven by new construction, fresher locales, and distance from the
madding crowd. While lower end buyers must buy within their budget, or
rent. That means existing, older homes, from which the monied have moved
for newer environs.

Race need not apply.

Now, there were blacks moving into the second community where I grew up..
And there was considerable noise about them. But the unrecognized
reality was that their homes were better maintained and landscaped, and
they often had nicer, if not more interesting, cars in the garage. All
of which may have been motivated by an intent to avoid falling into
stereotype. Without the over-and-above, they would have fit right in to
the existing environment without a hitch.

But these were not people who were put into these homes by 'block
busting commitees.' They bought, and mortgaged, their homes themselves,
based on their own qualifications. Blockbuster homes were often bought
by the committee, and then spun to the occupants with assistance to
those who could not otherwise afford to live in the neighborhood. That's
what led to the stereotype.

Even in those cases, the problems were not with blacks moving into the
homes, but with the committees putting them into homes that they could
not rightly afford, and couldn't maintain.

Now, your communty's situation may be different than mine. Likely it is..
But it's hardly a hard case of racially caused decay. Community decay
dates to the Greeks and Romans. It's part of the process of evolution of
a community. The case is more likely the politically motivated ignorance
of realties that put people into homes the couldn't afford to maintain
than it is the race of the people themselves.

Nicely put Peter. In my neck of the world, the Hill District, is the so
called local getto. too many years ago, it was home to the captains of
industry. coal barons, steel magnets, etc. big beautiful homes, churches
looking like they belonged in old europe. and, as always does, the money
was lured out of the city, you can check/ read the history of the
first Johnstown flood. and other places in our mountains of western PA.
the homes left behind were mostly made into many apartment set-ups.
most people living in the city, blue collar, needed to be near their
work. and so it goes. max profit, little over all up keep. in a matter
of a generation, the large beautiful homes and the nice locals were a
slum. and so it now goes in the so called rust belt. BTW, the Hill
is the Hill Street station from the old cop series. "Hill Street Blues"
the main writer was an x cop from the burg.

BTW, on the way home from Indy, a bunch of us stopped to see "The Eye".
Peter, I love it! took a bunch of pix. always enjoy Chicago food too.

Drifter...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jul 26, 3:32*pm, Drifter wrote:
On 7/26/2010 12:31 PM, D. Peter Maus wrote:





On 7/25/10 22:57 , Gregg wrote:

What you describe is something that happens and has happened in
subdivisions/developments/communities across the culture.

"White Flight" is nothing new. In fact, it was actively cultivated by
real estate brokers in communities throughout the 50's and 60's. The
reason had less to do with race, and more to do with profit. Sell whites
on the fear, offer them fresh properties in the suburbs, handle the
sales and purchases on each end, turn around and handle the purchase of
the city properties by the new class moving in. Fortunes were made.

That said, the new class need not be black to lower the standard of
living in a community. Two of the communities I grew up in are now run
down, lower end communities. And race is not involved. Both were new
construction, higher end, communities when we moved in. Today, in the
later one (where we moved in in the late 60's,) home prices have fallen,
the state of repair is poor, and 30% of homes have been declared unfit
for habitation.

Time is a bitch. And it levels all playing fields.

The previous community, into which we moved in '55, are now lower end,
now starter homes, though still nice homes as a whole, and, again,
racial components are not involved.

The phenomenon is driven by a lot of things. One is, that the monied are
often driven by new construction, fresher locales, and distance from the
madding crowd. While lower end buyers must buy within their budget, or
rent. That means existing, older homes, from which the monied have moved
for newer environs.

Race need not apply.

Now, there were blacks moving into the second community where I grew up..
And there was considerable noise about them. But the unrecognized
reality was that their homes were better maintained and landscaped, and
they often had nicer, if not more interesting, cars in the garage. All
of which may have been motivated by an intent to avoid falling into
stereotype. Without the over-and-above, they would have fit right in to
the existing environment without a hitch.

But these were not people who were put into these homes by 'block
busting commitees.' They bought, and mortgaged, their homes themselves,
based on their own qualifications. Blockbuster homes were often bought
by the committee, and then spun to the occupants with assistance to
those who could not otherwise afford to live in the neighborhood. That's
what led to the stereotype.

Even in those cases, the problems were not with blacks moving into the
homes, but with the committees putting them into homes that they could
not rightly afford, and couldn't maintain.

Now, your communty's situation may be different than mine. Likely it is..
But it's hardly a hard case of racially caused decay. Community decay
dates to the Greeks and Romans. It's part of the process of evolution of
a community. The case is more likely the politically motivated ignorance
of realties that put people into homes the couldn't afford to maintain
than it is the race of the people themselves.

Nicely put Peter. In my neck of the world, the Hill District, is the so
called local getto. too many years ago, it was home to the captains of
industry. coal barons, steel magnets, etc. big beautiful homes, churches
looking like they belonged in old europe. and, as always does, the money
was lured out of the city, you can check/ read the history of the
first Johnstown flood. and other places in our mountains of western PA.
the homes left behind were mostly made into many apartment set-ups.
most people living in the city, blue collar, needed to be near their
work. and so it goes. max profit, little over all up keep. in a matter
of a generation, the large beautiful homes and the nice locals were a
slum. and so it now goes in the so called rust belt. BTW, the Hill
is the Hill Street station from the old cop series. "Hill Street Blues"
the main writer was an x cop from the burg.

BTW, on the way home from Indy, a bunch of us stopped to see "The Eye".
Peter, I love it! took a bunch of pix. always enjoy Chicago food too.

t .- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I can agree totally with what Peter and Drifter have written.
Communities do
devolve to a point where only folks at the bottom of the economic
ladder are left.
The fact that these are often African-Americans is not so much a
testament
to the cultural inferiority of blacks as it is a statement about how
our basic
economic structure is racist. Along with Gregg, of course....

Mike wrote:



I can agree totally with what Peter and Drifter have written.
Communities do
devolve to a point where only folks at the bottom of the economic
ladder are left.
The fact that these are often African-Americans is not so much a
testament
to the cultural inferiority of blacks as it is a statement about how
our basic
economic structure is racist. Along with Gregg, of course....

In Houston and Dallas, they chased all the poor people out, leveled the
ghettos, and installed yuppie housing for the unwashed masses who toil
downtown. The suburbs then become the new "inner city".

What is ''the Eye and where is it''?

There is a big building in Minneapolis which has a hole near the top
center of the building.Is that ''the Eye''?
cuhulin

On Jul 26, 2:00*pm, dave wrote:
Mike wrote:

I can agree totally with what Peter and Drifter have written.
Communities do
devolve to a point where only folks at the bottom of the economic
ladder are left.
The fact that these are often African-Americans is not so much a
testament
to the cultural inferiority of blacks as it is a statement about how
our basic
economic structure is racist. Along with Gregg, of course....

- In Houston and Dallas, they chased all
- the poor people out, leveled the ghettos,
- and installed yuppie housing for the
- unwashed masses who toil downtown.
-*The suburbs then become the new "inner city".

-wrt- Gentification Squared on Acid

More like a Gentry-Fried Square on Acid

Dave the suburbs remain the suburbs : They
may become run down and even 'ghettoized'
-but- They will never become the 'inner city' since
they are located outside the City proper.

downtown is downtown and up-town is up-town
and the suburbs ain't in-town at all ~ RHF

RHF wrote:

-wrt- Gentification Squared on Acid

More like a Gentry-Fried Square on Acid

Dave the suburbs remain the suburbs : They
may become run down and even 'ghettoized'
-but- They will never become the 'inner city' since
they are located outside the City proper.

downtown is downtown and up-town is up-town
and the suburbs ain't in-town at all ~ RHF
.


Walkin' down the street, smoggy-eyed
Looking at the sky, starry-eyed
Searchin' for the place, weary-eyed
Crying in the night, teary-eyed

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

Wonder when I'll find paradise
Somewhere there's a home sweet and nice
Song text taken from stlyrics.com
Wonder if I'll find happiness
Never give it up now I guess

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

There's no need to search anywhere
Happiness is here, have your share
If you know you're loved, be secure
Paradise is love to be sure

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

-War

Do you remember Nick's Snow White restaurant that used to be in Oakland?
On my way to Vietnam in January 1964, I spent four days and nights in
Oakland.One time some guys and myself were looking around in Oakland, we
stopped off at Nick's Snow White for dinner.The guy who ran the
restaurant wouldn't let us pay for our meals.

I know Nick's Snow White was torn down to make way for new construction
projects in that area.Not many years ago, I emailed the Oakland main
library about that restaurant.A guy at the library sent me a reply.I
still have his email reply in my email inbox.
cuhulin

On Jul 26, 12:43*pm, Mike wrote:
On Jul 26, 3:32*pm, Drifter wrote:



On 7/26/2010 12:31 PM, D. Peter Maus wrote:

On 7/25/10 22:57 , Gregg wrote:

What you describe is something that happens and has happened in
subdivisions/developments/communities across the culture.

"White Flight" is nothing new. In fact, it was actively cultivated by
real estate brokers in communities throughout the 50's and 60's. The
reason had less to do with race, and more to do with profit. Sell whites
on the fear, offer them fresh properties in the suburbs, handle the
sales and purchases on each end, turn around and handle the purchase of
the city properties by the new class moving in. Fortunes were made.

That said, the new class need not be black to lower the standard of
living in a community. Two of the communities I grew up in are now run
down, lower end communities. And race is not involved. Both were new
construction, higher end, communities when we moved in. Today, in the
later one (where we moved in in the late 60's,) home prices have fallen,
the state of repair is poor, and 30% of homes have been declared unfit
for habitation.

Time is a bitch. And it levels all playing fields.

The previous community, into which we moved in '55, are now lower end,
now starter homes, though still nice homes as a whole, and, again,
racial components are not involved.

The phenomenon is driven by a lot of things. One is, that the monied are
often driven by new construction, fresher locales, and distance from the
madding crowd. While lower end buyers must buy within their budget, or
rent. That means existing, older homes, from which the monied have moved
for newer environs.

Race need not apply.

Now, there were blacks moving into the second community where I grew up.
And there was considerable noise about them. But the unrecognized
reality was that their homes were better maintained and landscaped, and
they often had nicer, if not more interesting, cars in the garage. All
of which may have been motivated by an intent to avoid falling into
stereotype. Without the over-and-above, they would have fit right in to
the existing environment without a hitch.

But these were not people who were put into these homes by 'block
busting commitees.' They bought, and mortgaged, their homes themselves,
based on their own qualifications. Blockbuster homes were often bought
by the committee, and then spun to the occupants with assistance to
those who could not otherwise afford to live in the neighborhood. That's
what led to the stereotype.

Even in those cases, the problems were not with blacks moving into the
homes, but with the committees putting them into homes that they could
not rightly afford, and couldn't maintain.

Now, your communty's situation may be different than mine. Likely it is.
But it's hardly a hard case of racially caused decay. Community decay
dates to the Greeks and Romans. It's part of the process of evolution of
a community. The case is more likely the politically motivated ignorance
of realties that put people into homes the couldn't afford to maintain
than it is the race of the people themselves.

Nicely put Peter. In my neck of the world, the Hill District, is the so
called local getto. too many years ago, it was home to the captains of
industry. coal barons, steel magnets, etc. big beautiful homes, churches
looking like they belonged in old europe. and, as always does, the money
was lured out of the city, you can check/ read the history of the
first Johnstown flood. and other places in our mountains of western PA.
the homes left behind were mostly made into many apartment set-ups.
most people living in the city, blue collar, needed to be near their
work. and so it goes. max profit, little over all up keep. in a matter
of a generation, the large beautiful homes and the nice locals were a
slum. and so it now goes in the so called rust belt. BTW, the Hill
is the Hill Street station from the old cop series. "Hill Street Blues"
the main writer was an x cop from the burg.

BTW, on the way home from Indy, a bunch of us stopped to see "The Eye".
Peter, I love it! took a bunch of pix. always enjoy Chicago food too.

t .- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I can agree totally with what Peter and Drifter have written.
Communities do
devolve to a point where only folks at the bottom of the economic
ladder are left.
The fact that these are often African-Americans is not so much a
testament
to the cultural inferiority of blacks as it is a statement about how
our basic
economic structure is racist. Along with Gregg, of course....

MWB,

Since I was born and grew-up in Oakland, CA
"The City" has evolved from a segregated West
Oakland {Black} with a Downtown China Town
and the rest a mixed variety of predominately
Whites to a generally dispersed community of
Whites and Blacks up until I was going through
High School. Then there was an Influx of South
East Asians and into some neighborhoods that
gradually dispersed all the Asian through-out most
of the City. That was followed by Hispanics moving
in, in greater numbers, and displacing the Whites
and Blacks. {OMG - Black and White Flight}
The White population of Oakland has gone down;
but the Black population has gone down even
more; while the populations of both Hispanics
and Asians are ever increasing thus displacing
more and more Blacks and Whites from the City.

International Blvd running through most of East
Oakland is just that; where English is a second
language; and where fewer and fewer Blacks
and Whites go...

the evolution of a city {society} is not required to be
just or fair or equal - it just happens ~ RHF

On 7/26/10 14:32 , Drifter wrote:
On 7/26/2010 12:31 PM, D. Peter Maus wrote:
On 7/25/10 22:57 , Gregg wrote:



What you describe is something that happens and has happened in
subdivisions/developments/communities across the culture.

"White Flight" is nothing new. In fact, it was actively cultivated by
real estate brokers in communities throughout the 50's and 60's. The
reason had less to do with race, and more to do with profit. Sell whites
on the fear, offer them fresh properties in the suburbs, handle the
sales and purchases on each end, turn around and handle the purchase of
the city properties by the new class moving in. Fortunes were made.

That said, the new class need not be black to lower the standard of
living in a community. Two of the communities I grew up in are now run
down, lower end communities. And race is not involved. Both were new
construction, higher end, communities when we moved in. Today, in the
later one (where we moved in in the late 60's,) home prices have fallen,
the state of repair is poor, and 30% of homes have been declared unfit
for habitation.

Time is a bitch. And it levels all playing fields.

The previous community, into which we moved in '55, are now lower end,
now starter homes, though still nice homes as a whole, and, again,
racial components are not involved.

The phenomenon is driven by a lot of things. One is, that the monied are
often driven by new construction, fresher locales, and distance from the
madding crowd. While lower end buyers must buy within their budget, or
rent. That means existing, older homes, from which the monied have moved
for newer environs.

Race need not apply.

Now, there were blacks moving into the second community where I grew up.
And there was considerable noise about them. But the unrecognized
reality was that their homes were better maintained and landscaped, and
they often had nicer, if not more interesting, cars in the garage. All
of which may have been motivated by an intent to avoid falling into
stereotype. Without the over-and-above, they would have fit right in to
the existing environment without a hitch.

But these were not people who were put into these homes by 'block
busting commitees.' They bought, and mortgaged, their homes themselves,
based on their own qualifications. Blockbuster homes were often bought
by the committee, and then spun to the occupants with assistance to
those who could not otherwise afford to live in the neighborhood. That's
what led to the stereotype.

Even in those cases, the problems were not with blacks moving into the
homes, but with the committees putting them into homes that they could
not rightly afford, and couldn't maintain.

Now, your communty's situation may be different than mine. Likely it is.
But it's hardly a hard case of racially caused decay. Community decay
dates to the Greeks and Romans. It's part of the process of evolution of
a community. The case is more likely the politically motivated ignorance
of realties that put people into homes the couldn't afford to maintain
than it is the race of the people themselves.



Nicely put Peter. In my neck of the world, the Hill District, is the so
called local getto. too many years ago, it was home to the captains of
industry. coal barons, steel magnets, etc. big beautiful homes, churches
looking like they belonged in old europe. and, as always does, the money
was lured out of the city, you can check/ read the history of the
first Johnstown flood. and other places in our mountains of western PA.
the homes left behind were mostly made into many apartment set-ups.
most people living in the city, blue collar, needed to be near their
work. and so it goes. max profit, little over all up keep. in a matter
of a generation, the large beautiful homes and the nice locals were a
slum. and so it now goes in the so called rust belt. BTW, the Hill
is the Hill Street station from the old cop series. "Hill Street Blues"
the main writer was an x cop from the burg.

BTW, on the way home from Indy, a bunch of us stopped to see "The Eye".
Peter, I love it! took a bunch of pix. always enjoy Chicago food too.

Drifter...



The inner city in St Louis was likewise a home for the monied,
powerful and connected. Lafayette Square was a Victorian haven for
the wealthy forces that drove the development and industrialization
of St Louis. Before I left, you could buy a 4 story 8 bedroom
Victoran home in Lafayette Square for $8000. Sometimes less.

Well, the old homes got so much attention by the fans of period
architecture, that some were buying them up at market prices, and
spending $500,000 and more to return them to their native splendor.

By the time I left St Louis, Lafayette Square was a vital, very
upscale community with a vibrant life, and tremendous economic and
cultural holdings. Now on the National Historic Register.

http://www.lafayettesquare.org

When the area fell into disrepair, it fell into the hands of
slumlords, who converted the homes into low rent flats of minimal
standards of maintenance, and exploited those of limited means.
Mostly a black community. Until its rennaisance. Now, it's an
integrated community of significant wealth.

It wasn't as popular, then, as it is today to throw the word
'racist' around at every opportunity and for every purpose, so
though there was a lot of focus on the racial component, racism
itself wasn't a part of the underpinnings of the area's history or
culture.

And that's the point that gets lost by those who can only call
names and throw epithets....it's not a matter so much of race that
brings communities to rust, as it is economics. There will always be
those who have, and always be those who have not. Just as there will
always be someone in every group who will aspire to power and
influence...someone will always hunger to be king.

That's not racial. That's the ambition of the human species.


Glad you enjoyed the Chicago cuisine. But there's so much of it,
how the hell do you walk?