On 10/10/2011 7:45 AM, J R wrote:
The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade.
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=314390

The Biggest drug dealers are the CIA, but that is old News.

Afghanistan,,, fed govt said they were going to destroy all the poppies
over there.HA! CIA is doing more drug trade than ever before!
Follow The Money.
cuhulin


I am one who thinks your point(s) is/are absolutely correct. The USA
government is in the drug trade here and imprisons all their competition
.... surely gives a most severe definition to "monopoly!"

I can't believe people actually want to waste their tax dollars on
support the crooks! If fact, I think the government lies and most don't
want to!

Regards,
JS

On Oct 10, 11:54*am, John Smith wrote:
On 10/10/2011 7:45 AM, J R wrote:

The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade.
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=314390

The Biggest drug dealers are the CIA, but that is old News.

Afghanistan,,, fed govt said they were going to destroy all the poppies
over there.HA! CIA is doing more drug trade than ever before!
Follow The Money.
cuhulin

I am one who thinks your point(s) is/are absolutely correct. *The USA
government is in the drug trade here and imprisons all their competition
... surely gives a most severe definition to "monopoly!"

I can't believe people actually want to waste their tax dollars on
support the crooks! *If fact, I think the government lies and most don't
want to!

Regards,
JS

The 'Delano' Family -wrt- "FDR"
was in the China Trade {Opium}
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v97/n196/a03.html

nothing changes ~ RHF

On 10/10/2011 10:48 AM, Thomas Heger wrote:
Am 10.10.2011 07:29, schrieb John Smith:
On 10/8/2011 7:26 PM, RHF wrote:
On Oct 8, 5:39 pm, John wrote:
On 10/8/2011 5:13 PM, Thomas Heger wrote:

...

Alcohol is a drug in a way and cigarettes make quite addictive, but
that
was not, what I meant with illegal drugs.
I mean stuff like crack or heroine. These create a certain kind of
physical addiction, that is very hard to cure and forces the addictive
person to use these substances, unless they want to get severe pain
and
health problems.

Like any substance, the price depends. It is a question of the way,
these substances are produced and not of the stuff itself. In
Afghanistan a great deal of the raw material is produced. This
could be
bought there for relatively moderate prices. The processing to a
drug is
usual chemical work, that any good pharmaceutical plant could do.
...

In areas of So. America, Coca Leaf is legal. I think the wife and I
were on a train in Bolivia when we had our first cup of coca tea --
delightful stuff! As good or better than coffee, indeed a mix of coca
leaf with coffee beans is an ideal pick-me-up!

Coca tea should certainly be available here in the USA ... and, like
pot, the government should keep their noses out of others business and
what plants they consume ... if you are in public and endangering
yourself or others, different story ... if you are committing a crime,
different story, etc.

It was an insane plan to ever attempt to outlaw God given plants. I
don't know what insanity ever made it seem different, what thinking
made
us wish to punish people for using plants, etc. ... but someday we will
have to return to sanity and tell the control freaks to mind their own
business and quit locking up people for using plants and committing no
other crime(s.) For one thing, we simply can't afford it, never could,
really ...

Regards,
JS

Some of the Marijuana Growers in the Northern
California Sierra Foothills have also been
trying to grow Coca Plants on Federal Lands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca
.

Well, I definently don't like the "high" of marijuana, but coca is so
much like coffee as a pick me up that I can see real value in it ...
indeed, I believe coca-cola used to actually contain cocaine ...

It wasn't until this century began that drugs were illegal ... I can
remember that my grandmother still had supplies of opium and cocaine and
guarded them religiously ... doling them out for a toothache here,
someones insomnia here, etc.

The original argument, why to make drugs illegal, was basically that
people were duped into becoming addicted and supporting the "medicine
show man" selling his "tonics."

Well, times have a changed, everyone knows about drugs ... we can
decriminalize them now ... the only people who will become addicted are
those who wish to ... no one is going to be duped into it ...

Any substance is somehow a drug. So let's talk about narcotics - maybe.

If you consider all the suffering related to these drugs: mental and
health problems, loosing jobs, families and friends, a LOT of money and
possibly life. So warnings should be there. But it's not really a
question of the law and criminal investigation, if someone is taking
these substances.

On the other hand, this is not wanted neither, because consume has
negative side effects. But making this stuff illegal and consume a crime
makes matters much worse, since the addiction cannot be properly
treated, the stuff is mixed with any kind of toxins and the price for
the dose is getting very high, what inevitable leads to related crimes.

This is all a great big ugly mess. Most countries do not really solve
these problems, but have half-baked programs, that can make matters even
worse.

So people should start to think it over and calculate the benefits
against the costs and find a possible solution.

A solution would be a cure of addiction. Sounds like a silly proposal,
but there are certain therapies, that seem to work and are seldom used:

One way stems from Israel and that was to sedate the addictive person
during the detoxification.
Another way use a specific drug, but I forgot the name. It was kind of
hallucinogen plant from Westafrica.
The substitution with methadone seems to create more problems than it
solves, what leave the controlled hand out of the real drug.

something else:
this thread has still the title ' Small gun, the serious protection
you need ...' and is posted to 'rec.sport.golf' ;-)

Greetings

TH

In the end, all I see left on the table, once the BS is wiped up, is
control freaks and crooks ...

Or, simply, those who do not get a reward from controlling others, or
are making no profit from drugs being illegal, simply have no interest
in consuming billion or even trillions of tax payer dollars to imprison,
otherwise, law abiding citizens ...

Unless some other crime is committed, the simple act of consuming a drug
(or narcotic, specifically) is simply a victimless crime ... and
certainly NOT WORTH PAYING $40,000+ USD to punish someone for (lock them
in a prison) ... besides, it only ends up, really, punishing the tax
payers and society at large ... but, if you are not making any money off
of the drugs themselves, exploiting the American tax payer for your
paycheck is yet another option (paid public servant, policing authority,
court employee, etc.)

All of this punishment, criminalization and illegality of drugs does is
"put fleas on the tax payers back", to suck 'em dry ...

Regards,
JS

Germany Unity Day
http://www.rense.com
cuhulin

On Oct 10, 5:13*pm, (J R) wrote:
- Germany Unity Day
- http://www.rense.com
- cuhulin

Deutsches Eck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Eck

Am 10.10.2011 22:37, schrieb John Smith:
On 10/10/2011 10:48 AM, Thomas Heger wrote:
Am 10.10.2011 07:29, schrieb John Smith:
On 10/8/2011 7:26 PM, RHF wrote:
On Oct 8, 5:39 pm, John wrote:
On 10/8/2011 5:13 PM, Thomas Heger wrote:
...


It wasn't until this century began that drugs were illegal ... I can
remember that my grandmother still had supplies of opium and cocaine and
guarded them religiously ... doling them out for a toothache here,
someones insomnia here, etc.

The original argument, why to make drugs illegal, was basically that
people were duped into becoming addicted and supporting the "medicine
show man" selling his "tonics."

Well, times have a changed, everyone knows about drugs ... we can
decriminalize them now ... the only people who will become addicted are
those who wish to ... no one is going to be duped into it ...

Any substance is somehow a drug. So let's talk about narcotics - maybe.

If you consider all the suffering related to these drugs: mental and
health problems, loosing jobs, families and friends, a LOT of money and
possibly life. So warnings should be there. But it's not really a
question of the law and criminal investigation, if someone is taking
these substances.

On the other hand, this is not wanted neither, because consume has
negative side effects. But making this stuff illegal and consume a crime
makes matters much worse, since the addiction cannot be properly
treated, the stuff is mixed with any kind of toxins and the price for
the dose is getting very high, what inevitable leads to related crimes.

This is all a great big ugly mess. Most countries do not really solve
these problems, but have half-baked programs, that can make matters even
worse.

So people should start to think it over and calculate the benefits
against the costs and find a possible solution.

...



In the end, all I see left on the table, once the BS is wiped up, is
control freaks and crooks ...

Or, simply, those who do not get a reward from controlling others, or
are making no profit from drugs being illegal, simply have no interest
in consuming billion or even trillions of tax payer dollars to imprison,
otherwise, law abiding citizens ...

Unless some other crime is committed, the simple act of consuming a drug
(or narcotic, specifically) is simply a victimless crime ... and
certainly NOT WORTH PAYING $40,000+ USD to punish someone for (lock them
in a prison) ... besides, it only ends up, really, punishing the tax
payers and society at large ... but, if you are not making any money off
of the drugs themselves, exploiting the American tax payer for your
paycheck is yet another option (paid public servant, policing authority,
court employee, etc.)

All of this punishment, criminalization and illegality of drugs does is
"put fleas on the tax payers back", to suck 'em dry ...


You still don't see the entire scale of the problem.
The prison is only the 'tip of the iceberg'. But try to imagine all the
other negative side effects.

E.g. the addictive person steals a car, for example yours. To get you
out off the car, he points a gun at you. Now we have some sort of
extreme situation, but lets imagine you are rescued by somebody, that
shoots at the criminal.

Now we have a person under shock and a badly injured criminal and the
police has a lot of work. The costs here are not only, what all these
people earn (policemen, hospital, prison wards, lawyers, ambulance
drivers and so forth), but somehow the negative effects on quality of
life, what has a value, too.

Streetlife has a value. That is the possibility to use public spaces
without fear. If you are afraid of being ripped off, than your
possibilities are reduced.

The reduction of personal liberties, due to the 'war on drugs' is also
worth to mention.

Then income goes into generally wrong canals, because large revenues are
made through means, that are against the society in general. That income
attracts young people and guides them away from useful work into drug
related 'business'. This money feeds the criminals and let them use that
income, to finance other unwanted activities.

E.g. that money enables them, to bribe and corrupt officials, policemen
or politicians. These people can do real damage, if they don't function
like intended.

TH

"Thomas Heger" wrote in message
...
Am 10.10.2011 22:37, schrieb John Smith:
On 10/10/2011 10:48 AM, Thomas Heger wrote:
Am 10.10.2011 07:29, schrieb John Smith:
On 10/8/2011 7:26 PM, RHF wrote:
On Oct 8, 5:39 pm, John wrote:
On 10/8/2011 5:13 PM, Thomas Heger wrote:
..


It wasn't until this century began that drugs were illegal ... I can
remember that my grandmother still had supplies of opium and cocaine
and
guarded them religiously ... doling them out for a toothache here,
someones insomnia here, etc.

The original argument, why to make drugs illegal, was basically that
people were duped into becoming addicted and supporting the "medicine
show man" selling his "tonics."

Well, times have a changed, everyone knows about drugs ... we can
decriminalize them now ... the only people who will become addicted are
those who wish to ... no one is going to be duped into it ...

Any substance is somehow a drug. So let's talk about narcotics - maybe.

If you consider all the suffering related to these drugs: mental and
health problems, loosing jobs, families and friends, a LOT of money and
possibly life. So warnings should be there. But it's not really a
question of the law and criminal investigation, if someone is taking
these substances.

On the other hand, this is not wanted neither, because consume has
negative side effects. But making this stuff illegal and consume a crime
makes matters much worse, since the addiction cannot be properly
treated, the stuff is mixed with any kind of toxins and the price for
the dose is getting very high, what inevitable leads to related crimes.

This is all a great big ugly mess. Most countries do not really solve
these problems, but have half-baked programs, that can make matters even
worse.

So people should start to think it over and calculate the benefits
against the costs and find a possible solution.

..



In the end, all I see left on the table, once the BS is wiped up, is
control freaks and crooks ...

Or, simply, those who do not get a reward from controlling others, or
are making no profit from drugs being illegal, simply have no interest
in consuming billion or even trillions of tax payer dollars to imprison,
otherwise, law abiding citizens ...

Unless some other crime is committed, the simple act of consuming a drug
(or narcotic, specifically) is simply a victimless crime ... and
certainly NOT WORTH PAYING $40,000+ USD to punish someone for (lock them
in a prison) ... besides, it only ends up, really, punishing the tax
payers and society at large ... but, if you are not making any money off
of the drugs themselves, exploiting the American tax payer for your
paycheck is yet another option (paid public servant, policing authority,
court employee, etc.)

All of this punishment, criminalization and illegality of drugs does is
"put fleas on the tax payers back", to suck 'em dry ...


You still don't see the entire scale of the problem.
The prison is only the 'tip of the iceberg'. But try to imagine all the
other negative side effects.


And you are only focused on the "negative side effects" and ignore any of
the positives

E.g. the addictive person steals a car, for example yours. To get you out
off the car, he points a gun at you. Now we have some sort of extreme
situation, but lets imagine you are rescued by somebody, that shoots at
the criminal.


1) Very few addicts bother getting guns. They are too busy using what
wealth they have to pay for drugs.
2) Very few addicts do car-jackings. They are far more occupied with
scoring and enjoying the high.
3) Why should someone else rescue me, when I can put a bullet in the
car-jacking druggie, the moment I get a chance
4) If I pull my gun, I will most likely unload it into the druggie, to
make sure he's not a threat any more
5) I may be "in shock" after the shooting, but I'm alive and still have
my car.
6) The druggie is dead.
7) The police have little to do except advise the DA that it was a good
shoot.
Problem solved

Now we have a person under shock and a badly injured criminal and the
police has a lot of work. The costs here are not only, what all these
people earn (policemen, hospital, prison wards, lawyers, ambulance drivers
and so forth), but somehow the negative effects on quality of life, what
has a value, too.


That's only true in your worst-case scenario
IN the alternate scenario with a dead carjacking druggie, the only costs are
1) hauling off the body to the morgue
2) Autopsy
3) police filing a good shoot report
4) buying ammo to replace what was used.



Streetlife has a value. That is the possibility to use public spaces
without fear. If you are afraid of being ripped off, than your
possibilities are reduced.


And the reverse, is that if there are armed citizens, street scum are less
apt to try to rip off people since the thing they fear the MOST, ABOVE ALL
ELSE, is an ARMED CITIZEN

The reduction of personal liberties, due to the 'war on drugs' is also
worth to mention.


Change of subject noted


Then income goes into generally wrong canals, because large revenues are
made through means, that are against the society in general. That income
attracts young people and guides them away from useful work into drug
related 'business'. This money feeds the criminals and let them use that
income, to finance other unwanted activities.

E.g. that money enables them, to bribe and corrupt officials, policemen or
politicians. These people can do real damage, if they don't function like
intended.



Don't disagree with you there
Prohibitions of any kind tend to
1) fail badly
2) result in unintended and usually negative side-effects.

On 10/11/2011 9:11 AM, Thomas Heger wrote:
Am 10.10.2011 22:37, schrieb John Smith:
On 10/10/2011 10:48 AM, Thomas Heger wrote:
Am 10.10.2011 07:29, schrieb John Smith:
On 10/8/2011 7:26 PM, RHF wrote:
On Oct 8, 5:39 pm, John wrote:
On 10/8/2011 5:13 PM, Thomas Heger wrote:
..


It wasn't until this century began that drugs were illegal ... I can
remember that my grandmother still had supplies of opium and cocaine
and
guarded them religiously ... doling them out for a toothache here,
someones insomnia here, etc.

The original argument, why to make drugs illegal, was basically that
people were duped into becoming addicted and supporting the "medicine
show man" selling his "tonics."

Well, times have a changed, everyone knows about drugs ... we can
decriminalize them now ... the only people who will become addicted are
those who wish to ... no one is going to be duped into it ...

Any substance is somehow a drug. So let's talk about narcotics - maybe.

If you consider all the suffering related to these drugs: mental and
health problems, loosing jobs, families and friends, a LOT of money and
possibly life. So warnings should be there. But it's not really a
question of the law and criminal investigation, if someone is taking
these substances.

On the other hand, this is not wanted neither, because consume has
negative side effects. But making this stuff illegal and consume a crime
makes matters much worse, since the addiction cannot be properly
treated, the stuff is mixed with any kind of toxins and the price for
the dose is getting very high, what inevitable leads to related crimes.

This is all a great big ugly mess. Most countries do not really solve
these problems, but have half-baked programs, that can make matters even
worse.

So people should start to think it over and calculate the benefits
against the costs and find a possible solution.

..



In the end, all I see left on the table, once the BS is wiped up, is
control freaks and crooks ...

Or, simply, those who do not get a reward from controlling others, or
are making no profit from drugs being illegal, simply have no interest
in consuming billion or even trillions of tax payer dollars to imprison,
otherwise, law abiding citizens ...

Unless some other crime is committed, the simple act of consuming a drug
(or narcotic, specifically) is simply a victimless crime ... and
certainly NOT WORTH PAYING $40,000+ USD to punish someone for (lock them
in a prison) ... besides, it only ends up, really, punishing the tax
payers and society at large ... but, if you are not making any money off
of the drugs themselves, exploiting the American tax payer for your
paycheck is yet another option (paid public servant, policing authority,
court employee, etc.)

All of this punishment, criminalization and illegality of drugs does is
"put fleas on the tax payers back", to suck 'em dry ...


You still don't see the entire scale of the problem.
The prison is only the 'tip of the iceberg'. But try to imagine all the
other negative side effects.

E.g. the addictive person steals a car, for example yours. To get you
out off the car, he points a gun at you. Now we have some sort of
extreme situation, but lets imagine you are rescued by somebody, that
shoots at the criminal.

Now we have a person under shock and a badly injured criminal and the
police has a lot of work. The costs here are not only, what all these
people earn (policemen, hospital, prison wards, lawyers, ambulance
drivers and so forth), but somehow the negative effects on quality of
life, what has a value, too.

Streetlife has a value. That is the possibility to use public spaces
without fear. If you are afraid of being ripped off, than your
possibilities are reduced.

The reduction of personal liberties, due to the 'war on drugs' is also
worth to mention.

Then income goes into generally wrong canals, because large revenues are
made through means, that are against the society in general. That income
attracts young people and guides them away from useful work into drug
related 'business'. This money feeds the criminals and let them use that
income, to finance other unwanted activities.

E.g. that money enables them, to bribe and corrupt officials, policemen
or politicians. These people can do real damage, if they don't function
like intended.

TH


Yes, we had a rash of "bad cops" which seemed to feed on the illegal
drug trade ...

One thing I am positive of, remove the financial rewards surrounding
drugs and the "drug problem" would take on a whole new face. It would
not be "glamorous", you would not see a punk of gang punks wearing gold
chains and presenting dangers, etc.

I am amazed that "the powers which be" can keep on selling failed
actions, plans and results while the very thing they are selling is
causing massive amounts of crime and death ... obviously, fear mongering
is economically a very lucrative business.

I have seen figures which claim ~80%+ of the prison populations are
people whose only crime is sales, possession, growing, creating, etc.
drugs ... it staggers my mind to even guess how much money could be had
by simply closing down 80% of the prisons, and sending 80% of the
authorities, court offices, cops, prison guards, etc. home and saving
their benefits, medical and perks ...

Certainly it would not be that expensive to start burying the drug
addicts which would die. And, it would only be a one time cost!

People who want to pay for this should be allowed to lock up as many as
they can afford ... I simply don't want to pay for it anymore ...

Regards,
JS

Afghan Opium Production Up 61% Over Last Year.
http://www.rense.com

Of couse that is with the blessing of the CIA, the World's Biggest Drug
Dealers, World's Biggest Dope Pushers.
cuhulin

On Oct 11, 10:21*pm, (J R) wrote:
Afghan Opium Production Up 61% Over Last Year.http://www.rense.com

Of couse that is with the blessing of the CIA, the World's Biggest Drug
Dealers, World's Biggest Dope Pushers.
cuhulin

CIA =the= Cocaine Importing Agency