Disappearance of Short Wave Time Signals at 5, 10, 15, 20kHz


Thirty years ago, that ticking atomic clock could be picked
up on any shortwave receiver, whether one paid $40 or
$400 for it, or even on the boom-boxes of that day, of
which the majority featured at least SW1 & SW2. Starting
in the 1990s, it became increasingly more difficult to tune
them in, even with a dedicated shortwave radio. They'd
come in on only certain of those frequencies, or only at
certain times of day.

Now, they are all but inaudible except for once in a while,
every other day, on one frequency or another. All I hear at
those frequencies is loud static or noise.

What's going on?? I actually use the signals to adjust 'dumb'
clocks and watches(windup ones or basic battery ones).

On Sat, 18 Jun 2016, wrote:

Disappearance of Short Wave Time Signals at 5, 10, 15, 20kHz


Thirty years ago, that ticking atomic clock could be picked
up on any shortwave receiver, whether one paid $40 or
$400 for it, or even on the boom-boxes of that day, of
which the majority featured at least SW1 & SW2. Starting
in the 1990s, it became increasingly more difficult to tune
them in, even with a dedicated shortwave radio. They'd
come in on only certain of those frequencies, or only at
certain times of day.

Now, they are all but inaudible except for once in a while,
every other day, on one frequency or another. All I hear at
those frequencies is loud static or noise.

What's going on?? I actually use the signals to adjust 'dumb'
clocks and watches(windup ones or basic battery ones).

It helps if you tune in the right frequencies. WWV (and WWVH in Hawaii)
are on 5, 10, 15 and 20MHz, not KHz, and I think WWV is back on 25MHz too
after some decades of absence.

They never came in "all the time", which was a good thing. You could flip
to another frequency and get the time, but if you lived far enough from
the transmitter site in Boulder Colorado, it would give a mild indication
of propagation, if you didn't hear them conditions were bad, if you did,
then the given frequency range was probably open.

One thing that's happened is that the average house has way more
electronis now than in 1971, and mroe important, it's mostly digital and
usually the power supplies are switching supplies. That all adds up to a
lot of noise, which the signal has to overcome. Since many a shortwave
radio is now portable, complete with whip antenna, most people will start
without some outdoor antenna while decades ago most would start with one.
So you pick up the noise first.

Put the radio near the window, the time signals will come in as well as
ever. Because you're getting away from all the inside noise, and closer
to the signal source, especially if the home is shielded due to a metal
frame or a metal roof.

Michael

Michael Black wrote:

- show quoted text -
"It helps if you tune in the right frequencies. WWV (and WWVH in Hawaii)
are on 5, 10, 15 and 20MHz, not KHz, and I think WWV is back on 25MHz"


I am severely dyslexic and always confuse what's in
mHz or kHz. But I have distinct long-term memories
of these time signals being much easier to pick up
decades ago than now, merely by flipping up the
telescopic antenna on the radio or boombox I was
using then. Didn't have to be right near a window or
have an external antenna.

The wikipedia article also mentions, about halfway
down, a power reduction at one or more of the sites
transmitting time signals, around 10 years ago.

Perhaps people just don't rely on broadcast signals
for accurate time anymore? Getting the time from a
shortwave source guarantees next to no latency
issues, unlike getting those same signals off the
internet or the telephone. Yes - it matters. that.
much.

Michael Black wrote:

- show quoted text -
"It helps if you tune in the right frequencies. WWV (and WWVH in Hawaii)
are on 5, 10, 15 and 20MHz, not KHz, and I think WWV is back on 25MHz"

On 6/18/2016 3:54 PM, wrote:

I am severely dyslexic and always confuse what's in
mHz or kHz. But I have distinct long-term memories
of these time signals being much easier to pick up
decades ago than now, merely by flipping up the
telescopic antenna on the radio or boombox I was
using then. Didn't have to be right near a window or
have an external antenna.

The wikipedia article also mentions, about halfway
down, a power reduction at one or more of the sites
transmitting time signals, around 10 years ago.

Perhaps people just don't rely on broadcast signals
for accurate time anymore? Getting the time from a
shortwave source guarantees next to no latency
issues, unlike getting those same signals off the
internet or the telephone. Yes - it matters. that.
much.

I guess I have to respectfully ask what you are doing that requires such
critical timing...

For my ham station I am operating the JT9 and JT65 modes that are *VERY*
sensitive to timing issues; there are several free apps (Dimension 4,
for one) that will adjust your computer clock. Internet latency has not
been a problem, keeping my computer clock within milliseconds. Would
being within milliseconds be close enough for your application(s)?

Joe from Kokomo wrote:
Michael Black wrote:

- show quoted text -
"It helps if you tune in the right frequencies. WWV (and WWVH in Hawaii)
are on 5, 10, 15 and 20MHz, not KHz, and I think WWV is back on 25MHz"

On 6/18/2016 3:54 PM, wrote:

I am severely dyslexic and always confuse what's in
mHz or kHz. But I have distinct long-term memories
of these time signals being much easier to pick up
decades ago than now, merely by flipping up the
telescopic antenna on the radio or boombox I was
using then. Didn't have to be right near a window or
have an external antenna.

The wikipedia article also mentions, about halfway
down, a power reduction at one or more of the sites
transmitting time signals, around 10 years ago.

Perhaps people just don't rely on broadcast signals
for accurate time anymore? Getting the time from a
shortwave source guarantees next to no latency
issues, unlike getting those same signals off the
internet or the telephone. Yes - it matters. that.
much.

"I guess I have to respectfully ask what you are doing that requires such
critical timing...

For my ham station I am operating the JT9 and JT65 modes that are *VERY*
sensitive to timing issues; there are several free apps (Dimension 4,
for one) that will adjust your computer clock. Internet latency has not
been a problem, keeping my computer clock within milliseconds. Would
being within milliseconds be close enough for your application(s)? "


Just the satisfaction of having the most accurate time on
my 'dumb' timekeepers(my aforementioned watch and
wind-up clocks, and even the one on the microwave).

Last time I worked in an office, most of my co-workers
wore watches, and many of them beeped at the top of the
hour. After syncing mine to the time signals on SW, I'd
go to work and start hearing watches beeping 2-6 minutes
before mine and up to 5 minutes after mine. Just amusing,
that's all, having the most accurate time and everyone else
is all over the place. As are the DJs and announcers on
local radio stations.

I've witnessed internet time being as much as 1/2second
behind the shortwave tones.

On 6/18/2016 5:28 PM, wrote:

Just the satisfaction of having the most accurate time on
my 'dumb' timekeepers(my aforementioned watch and
wind-up clocks, and even the one on the microwave).

Last time I worked in an office, most of my co-workers
wore watches, and many of them beeped at the top of the
hour. After syncing mine to the time signals on SW, I'd
go to work and start hearing watches beeping 2-6 minutes
before mine and up to 5 minutes after mine. Just amusing,
that's all, having the most accurate time and everyone else
is all over the place. As are the DJs and announcers on
local radio stations.

Well, I agree with you and have on occasion done similar to what you
have done.

I've witnessed internet time being as much as 1/2second
behind the shortwave tones.

That surprises me a bit.

1) Computer clocks are notoriously unstable; when you were comparing the
PC to the radio, how long was it since you calibrated the PC?

2) With the D4 app, you can option it to upgrade your PC clock at
whatever interval you want, once a week, once a day, once an hour, once
a minute or anything in between. The PC clocks, as bad as they are, will
usually hold for at least 15-30 minutes so if you set D4 to upgrade
every minute or two, you should be fine.

3) D4 will allow you to choose whatever atomic clock source you want to
use, i.e., you can choose a state University source closest to your home
to minimize propagation delay.

Having said all that, if propagation is good and you can hear them, WWV
is fine.

In article ,
says...

Disappearance of Short Wave Time Signals at 5, 10, 15, 20kHz


Thirty years ago, that ticking atomic clock could be picked
up on any shortwave receiver, whether one paid $40 or
$400 for it, or even on the boom-boxes of that day, of
which the majority featured at least SW1 & SW2. Starting
in the 1990s, it became increasingly more difficult to tune
them in, even with a dedicated shortwave radio. They'd
come in on only certain of those frequencies, or only at
certain times of day.

Now, they are all but inaudible except for once in a while,
every other day, on one frequency or another. All I hear at
those frequencies is loud static or noise.

What's going on?? I actually use the signals to adjust 'dumb'
clocks and watches(windup ones or basic battery ones).

Fired my POS $14 portable, and it was blasting in at 5 and 10 MHZ, as
usual at night. In the daytime, I can hear it at 15 and 20 almost all
the time, and often at 10MHZ too. I'm not in a quiet RF zone, so I have
no idea what you're babbling about.

--
BDK: Head Government Shill, Psychotronic World Dominator. Master of
Remote Viewing. Level 6 expert in kOOkStudies.
Former FEMA camp activities director. Head Strategic Writer. Former
Black Helicopter color consultant.

BDK wrote:

In article ,
says...
- show quoted text -

"Fired my POS $14 portable, and it was blasting in at 5 and 10 MHZ, as
usual at night. In the daytime, I can hear it at 15 and 20 almost all
the time, and often at 10MHZ too. I'm not in a quiet RF zone, so I have
no idea what you're babbling about. . "

Guess it just depends on where each of us lives.

I've lived in CT all my life, and your situation
describes my time signal reception up until about
twenty years ago. Since then, the noise went up
and the time signals faded away. Not for nothing,
I do get them occasionally - 2-3x per week on my
Grundig Buzz Aldrin Edition 400.

BDK wrote:

In article ,
says...
- show quoted text -

"Fired my POS $14 portable, and it was blasting in at 5 and 10 MHZ, as
usual at night. In the daytime, I can hear it at 15 and 20 almost all
the time, and often at 10MHZ too. I'm not in a quiet RF zone, so I have
no idea what you're babbling about. . "

Guess it just depends on where each of us lives.

I've lived in CT all my life, and your situation
describes my time signal reception up until about
twenty years ago. Since then, the noise went up
and the time signals faded away. Not for nothing,
I do get them occasionally - 2-3x per week on my
Grundig Buzz Aldrin Edition G6.

wrote:

BDK wrote:

In article ,
says...
- show quoted text -

"Fired my POS $14 portable, and it was blasting in at 5 and 10 MHZ, as
usual at night. In the daytime, I can hear it at 15 and 20 almost all
the time, and often at 10MHZ too. I'm not in a quiet RF zone, so I have
no idea what you're babbling about. . "

Guess it just depends on where each of us lives.

I've lived in CT all my life, and your situation
describes my time signal reception up until about
twenty years ago. Since then, the noise went up
and the time signals faded away. Not for nothing,
I do get them occasionally - 2-3x per week on my
Grundig Buzz Aldrin Edition G6.

Have you used different radios? Alot radios use simple RF stages which
can be damaged by static discharge. The input stage gets knocked out
but the radio still has enough gain to get some reception.

This sort of damage can go unnoitced because it doesn't affect the
internal ferrite antenna and the AM BC band still works fine.

As others have noted, the noise floor is now MUCH higher than it used to
be.