In article ,
longwave wrote:

Telamon wrote:

In article ,
longwave wrote:

Telamon wrote:

In article , John Barnard
wrote:

Go back and take a look at history, Telamon. Eastern Europeans have a
history of standing up to the Russians. Budapest in 1956 and
Czechoslovakia in 1968 come to mind and it was a shame that the USA
decided to abandon those countries and do nothing. The Solidarity
revolution was a Polish revolution which had NOTHING AT ALL to do
with Reagan or the USA. Brenda Ann quite rightly pointed out that the
Poles and the East Germans stood up to the Russians of their own
accord. Poland, out of all the Eastern European block, has always had
the stones to fight back a little and retain some measure of
autonomy.

I've always liked Reagan but he sure as hell didn't have anything to
do with the Solidarity revolution.

Sorry go back and read it yourself. We outspent Russia in the arms race
bankrupting them. When Russia lost the arms race Gorby negotiated the
current state of affairs with Reagan. That's why things changed. The
Polish Solidarity was a help but not the reason. Besides Reagan gave aid
and assistance to the Solidarity union and other opposition groups in
eastern europe.

Neither you nor anyone else can pull this revisionist bull**** on me. I
saw this happen in real time.

You saw what you wanted to see. No single president should get the
credit for winning the arms race. We outspent the USSR for more than
forty years. Every president since Truman contributed to the ultimate
collapse of the USSR. Reagan happened to be president when the end came.

How can you say that I saw what I wanted to see? No one knew how things
were going to turn out. Stinking Liberals were calling Reagan an out of
control cowboy "Ronald Ray Guns" because they though he would start WW3
confronting the Russians. Reagan built up the military and forced the
Russians into bankruptcy trying to keep up. The eastern europeans saw
their chance to throw off the yoke of communism with the Russians in
their weakened state.

I meant you see it now how you want to see it. There was never any
guarantee that confronting the Russians would not start WW3. Reagan was
fortunate to have a counterpart in the Soviet Union (Gorbechev) who was
willing to negotiate honestly. If it had been a hard liner like Stalin,
he would have laughed in Reagan's face, no matter how much we spent on
defense.

I see things the way they are not how I want to see them no matter how
strongly I feel about something. My emotions do not influence my
internal view of reality to the point that I do not recognize the facts
of a situation.

The discussion now departs from the actual past but I would have to
speculate that the outcome of Reagans efforts would remain unchanged if
a hard liner like Stalin were the Soviet premier at the time because
their economy could not keep up with ours. The Russians would fail and
their economy collapse regardless of who was in charge.

Reagan didn't just "happen to be there." He had a sense of destiny and
a job to do that took guts facing down the Russians and the left wing
in this country like Kerry that just wanted to give up and negotiate
with the Russians from a weak position.

You are right that it did not start with Reagan but he did finnish it.
If Kennedy was not assassinated he might have done it but Johnson,
Nixon, Ford and Carter didn't do it. Clinton would not have done it
either.

All of those presidents continued the nation's commitment to stand up
against communism but they couldn't have caused the collapse of the USSR
during their presidency because the Russians were still too strong to be
bankrupted by an increase in our defense budget. Reagan came along at a
time when the USSR was experiencing serious domestic problems both
economic and political, mainly caused by the war in Afghanistan, which
turned out to be their 'Vietnam'.

Through will and conviction he challenged the Russians forcing them to
focus on us in the arms race. It was world class poker game and Reagan
didn't bluff. The Russians finally ran out of money with a economy that
could not keep up with ours. Weakened from the effort they gave up the
hold they had on eastern europe since WW2 and the cold war was
basically ended.

The Russian's finally ran out of money after decades of the cold war,
not just the Reagan years.

Let me put words in your mouth and say that the other presidents or
someone else elected in Reagan's place would have accomplished the same
thing he did if elected to his term and I believe you to be wrong.

Someone else would not have done what he did because they do not have
the optimism, conviction and just plain guts it took to face down an
evil empire that had thousands of ballistic missiles pointed at us and
issue a ultimatum to them that they must acquiesce to a verifiable
nuclear reduction treaty or face an escalation that they could not
afford.

There is no higher stakes poker game than that and we all know who
blinked first.

Reagan faced great odds in his presidency and navigated this country
through many great perils with an optimism and conviction that this is
the greatest nation on earth and by the grace of God will preserver;
thrive even, in the face of adversity.

Reagan is a one of a kind. I have missed hearing from him this last
decade and now he is gone forever. You are not likely to come across
the sense of humor he had in any other politician. Not likely that you
will ever have another president be such a father figure to this
country who knows what he wants and how to get it driven by a deep
sense of faith and belief in the principles that this country was
founded on. He was solid as a rock and a true conservative.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Telamon wrote in message ...
[cut]
I've always liked Reagan but he sure as hell didn't have anything to
do with the Solidarity revolution.

Sorry go back and read it yourself. We outspent Russia in the arms race
bankrupting them. When Russia lost the arms race Gorby negotiated the
current state of affairs with Reagan. That's why things changed. The
Polish Solidarity was a help but not the reason. Besides Reagan gave aid
and assistance to the Solidarity union and other opposition groups in
eastern europe.


Actually the funny thing is that both of you are right. CIA with help
of Vaticano bank did sepnt enormous sum of money in order to help
Solidarity. However, nobody has any idea what happened to this money.
Solidarity leaders usually say that they never received any real help,
and there is BIG suspicion
that most of that help disappeared during the operation and only tiny
sum finally reached people needing it.

Saying that, i must say that many in Poland are now honouring the
president Reagan. Not that he singlehandly won Cold War (the pope +
Lech Walesa and few other people could disagree) but he was on the
greatest factors in speeding the USSR collapse.

"Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:06:16 -0400, "mrhangster"
Michael Bryant and Steve Lare were one in the same person.

Kinda new here arent ya? Not very bright either.

"Reagan Chose Hilltop Burial Site Himself"
U.S. National - AP via YAHHO! News
Fri Jun 11,10:34 PM ET

"I know in my heart that man is good. That what is right will
always eventually triumph. And there's purpose and worth to each
and every life." - Ronald W. Reagan

* The burial and memorial site is located on the southwestern
end of the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library, which was built
on a hilltop that offers panoramic views of a farm valley and
the distant Pacific Ocean.

"The journey has not been just my own, It seems I have been guided
by a force much larger than myself, a force made up of ideas and
beliefs about what this country is and what it could be."
- Ronald W. Reagan

* The casket was to be buried west of the curved wall facing
the Pacific Ocean.

* The memorial site is open to visitors to the 100-acre
presidential library and museum.

~ RHF
..
..
= = = (RHF) wrote in message
= = = . com...
= = = (Diverd4777) wrote in message
= = = ...
In article 40c5d97b.13757896@chupacabra, Groom Lake
writes:


What about the betrayal of his fellow actors in the SAG
when he snitched them out to the HUAC?

- Point !!

he was enamored of the left, until they tried to bully him;
serious intimidation I recall
Bad Move; But that's how they used to work
he never liked anything but right center after that..

FO&A,

The identification of Communist Party Members and Spy Cells
within the Hollywood Community and the Movie Industry was the
DUTY of Every American Citizen Who Loved their Country and
wanted to Stop the Communist. These same Communist who
supported the USSR and Stalin against their own country and
wanted the Violent Overthrow of the US Government.

Ronald W. Reagan 'did' the "Right Thing" as an American Citizen.

Now Go Do... The Right Thing ~ RHF

..

In article ,
(RHF) wrote:

"Reagan Chose Hilltop Burial Site Himself" U.S. National - AP via
YAHHO! News Fri Jun 11,10:34 PM ET

"I know in my heart that man is good. That what is right will always
eventually triumph. And there's purpose and worth to each and every
life." - Ronald W. Reagan

* The burial and memorial site is located on the southwestern end of
the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library, which was built on a hilltop
that offers panoramic views of a farm valley and the distant Pacific
Ocean.

"The journey has not been just my own, It seems I have been guided by
a force much larger than myself, a force made up of ideas and beliefs
about what this country is and what it could be." - Ronald W. Reagan

* The casket was to be buried west of the curved wall facing the
Pacific Ocean.

* The memorial site is open to visitors to the 100-acre presidential
library and museum.

When he came back yesterday for burial Ventura county came to a
standstill.

Work emptied out and something happened that never happened before in
my memory and that is the freeways stopped. People got out of their
cars to watch the funeral procession pass by. People standing on the
overpass, by the side of the road or anywhere they could get a look at
the procession.

It was an amazing display of affection for Reagan that people would
spontaneously do this.

I plan on visiting his museum and burial site next weekend.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Ronald Reagan. The man who defeated
Soviet Communism (no wonder liberals
hate him). May he rest in peace. (snip)


First of all, Reagan didn't defeat the USSR. Instead, he severely weakened
our relationship with our European allies, and that was the real key to the
events that followed. His endless rhetoric, his decision to place even more
nuclear weapons in Europe, his attack on Libya, his rhetorical threats
towards France following that attack on Libia, and a number of other
questionable actions, convinced many in Europe the Russians were not all
that bad in comparison. As a result, it was the efforts by European leaders
to reach out to the Russians, such as decisions by France and Germany to
help Russia build an oil pipeline to Europe and England's decision to
increase trade with Russia, that truly caused Russian leaders to rethink
their positions.

As others have pointed out, there were certainly other factors influencing
Russia's decision (declining economy. political unrest, and so on), but
these alone would not have, and had not in the past, caused Russia to
change. The key ingredient, missing in the past, was a shift in European
thinking. And that shift was caused by a widespread rejection of Reagan's
war mongering attitudes - attitudes that were a throw-back to the early days
of the cold war and, like Reagan himself, very much out of place in the
world at that time.

Stewart

In article . net,
"Dwight Stewart" wrote:

Ronald Reagan. The man who defeated
Soviet Communism (no wonder liberals
hate him). May he rest in peace. (snip)


First of all, Reagan didn't defeat the USSR.

Snip

If anyone is looking for proof of that an alternate universe exists here
it is.

The best that can be said about you is that at least you had the decency
to wait until he was buried to denigrate him.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

"Telamon" wrote:

(snip) The best that can be said
about you is that at least you had
the decency to wait until he was
buried to denigrate him.


The truth doesn't denigrate. I was there at the time to see that shift in
European thinking. And, by leaving this country not long before Reagan took
office and returning not long after he left, I was also able to more clearly
see what eight years of his presidency had done to this country. I returned
to see homeless people in the streets of even small towns (something I had
rarely seen outside the larger cities before), violent crime like I had
never seen before, stagnated wages for workers (most were earning no more
than when I left), sharply increased prices for most everything, shocking
corporate greed, jobs moving overseas, a growing immigration problem, a
declining military, declining political freedoms, a country growing more
politically divided then I had ever seen it before in my lifetime, and so
on. In my opinion, anyone who actually thinks Reagan was good for this
country doesn't really give a damn about this country. The same could
probably be said of Bush Sr, Clinton, and Bush Jr. Each have taken this
country to a new low.

Stewart

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
news



First of all, Reagan didn't defeat the USSR. Instead, he severely
weakened
our relationship with our European allies, and that was the real key to
the
events that followed. His endless rhetoric, his decision to place even
more
nuclear weapons in Europe, his attack on Libya, his rhetorical threats
towards France following that attack on Libia, and a number of other
questionable actions, convinced many in Europe the Russians were not all
that bad in comparison. As a result, it was the efforts by European
leaders
to reach out to the Russians, such as decisions by France and Germany to
help Russia build an oil pipeline to Europe and England's decision to
increase trade with Russia, that truly caused Russian leaders to rethink
their positions.

As others have pointed out, there were certainly other factors
influencing
Russia's decision (declining economy. political unrest, and so on), but
these alone would not have, and had not in the past, caused Russia to
change. The key ingredient, missing in the past, was a shift in European
thinking. And that shift was caused by a widespread rejection of Reagan's
war mongering attitudes - attitudes that were a throw-back to the early
days
of the cold war and, like Reagan himself, very much out of place in the
world at that time.

Stewart


Surely you don't want to confuse the average right wing , slightly fascistic
American with an intelligent evaluation of what really happened, especially
if it happened out side the borders of the US and Hollywood TV

Pete

"-=jd=-" wrote in message
...

You weren't the only person who witnessed events unfolding. Fortunately,
there were many others who had a much better vantage point to see certain
things happening. Things you were obviously blind to.

Regardless of your opinion, intent or political leanings, nothing you can
say or do can overcome all of the positive accomplishments and the
enduring legacy of the man.

Of course, even though glowing esteem for the man crosses all political
boundaries, I guess there will always be the fringe minority clamoring for
attention by either fabrication and/or distortion & spin in their attempts
to re-write history as they would prefer it

-=jd=-
--


It was a time of right-wing lunacy, a time of selling out the country to
multinationals, a time of the first feeble-minded president in our lifetime,
the beginning of extreme right wing ideology taking control of the
Republican party, which had until then been a fairly reasonable,
middle-of-the-road party. The US and other countries are still reeping what
was sowed by the Reaganites in the 80's. Above all, it was a time when form
prevailed over substance, and the American population to a large extent fell
for it.

Many Americans still believe the lies about less governement, which, of
course, is a euphamism for less government for the multinationals, but more
government for YOU.
Pete