On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:03:29 -0700, Richard Clark wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:03:29 -0700, Richard Clark wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:17:20 -0500, Rich Griffiths
wrote:


Shannon's equations don't actually tell you much that's useful, as a
Ham.

This would presume that the Ham is rather indifferent or incapable.
Shannon's work is exceedingly useful
snip

Well, I do admit that I went overboard there! Probably shouldn't speak
too quickly about moonbounce, meteor scatter, etc. I do think, however,
that for many Hams (me, at least :-) ) the applicable word is
"indifferent" rather than "incapable".

If you can genuinely find useful application to what microwave rovers do
-- or most microwave operators, for that matter -- that would be a special
contribution. I expect that would be even less likely for most HF and VHF
operations.

I'd characterize Shannon's work as more of academic interest (for most Ham
radio) than practical interest. In most of what most Hams do, there are
just too many other issues to deal with.

Please note the use of the word "most". I'm sure there are exceptions,
but I expect they're a small part of hamdom (as is microwaving, sigh).

--
Rich W2RG

I'd characterize Shannon's work as more of academic interest (for most Ham
radio) than practical interest. *In most of what most Hams do, there are
just too many other issues to deal with.

Please note the use of the word "most". *I'm sure there are exceptions,
but I expect they're a small part of hamdom (as is microwaving, sigh).

--
Rich * W2RG

I think you've hit the nail on the head..

If you're communicating with deep space probes, you've probably
already eked out the last tenth of dB everywhere else in the system,
so you can worry about coding and how close you are to the Shannon
limit.

If you're a ham, especially microwave rovering, then getting the last
couple dB is the least of your problems. It's easier for the ham to
get 3dB by some other means than, say, implementing coding.

Where some kind soul has made using coding easy, it's used (e.g.
JT65).

"Rich Griffiths" wrote in message
ations...
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:46:50 -0700, Sal M. Onella wrote:

"Rich Griffiths" wrote in message
communications...

Until this past year (when rotator cuff surgery took me out), I had
been doing quite a bit of microwave work as a rover (903 MHz - 10 GHz).
I was often impressed by how far over the horizon it would work with
an antenna only about 5 ft off the ground and about 1 W of power.


I did a little mickey-wave engineering, myself. Point-to-point is
easier than broadcast!

"Sal"

snip

but as a rover the operating mantra was always
just 'Let's try it".

snip

As an amateur rover, I generally found point-to-point to be more
difficult, because of simple real-world Ham issues that don't have a lot
to do with heavy theory.

That changes things for me! I didn't know the term "microwave rover" was
being applied to amateur radio. I never heard it before and I wrongly
thought you were talking about work -- traveling as a microwave installer.
My bad.

I am absolutely a believer in "Let's try it!" Some very good times have
come as surprises.

"Sal"

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:06:53 -0700, Sal M. Onella wrote:

snip
I didn't know the term "microwave rover"
was being applied to amateur radio.

Roving (or "rovering", nobody seems to know which it should be) is a
great aspect of VHF & up operating. It's taken me to some beautiful
sites where it was wonderful to be in the outdoors enjoying the weather
and the radio at the same time -- except in January ;-)

Rover is a separate category in the ARRL and other VHF & Up contests.
See, e.g., http://www.arrl.org/contests/rules/2008/jan-vhf-ss.html

Us hard-working, dedicated operators :-) get special consideration when
computing scores.

--
Rich

Rich Griffiths wrote:
Roving (or "rovering", nobody seems to know which it should be) is a
great aspect of VHF & up operating. It's taken me to some beautiful
sites where it was wonderful to be in the outdoors enjoying the weather
and the radio at the same time -- except in January ;-)

Rover is a separate category in the ARRL and other VHF & Up contests.
See, e.g., http://www.arrl.org/contests/rules/2008/jan-vhf-ss.html

Us hard-working, dedicated operators :-) get special consideration when
computing scores.


As a member of the club that has taken roving to new heights over the
years, I can safely say that it is indeed "roving".

The rovers got us as many 10GHz grids this weekend as the sum total of
the previous 11 contests. And they don't play the games that some of
the east coast "owned" rovers do. The rovers in the upper Midwest will,
and will try to, work anyone and everyone. Cooperation amongst
competition makes for a better contest.

And thank you for roving, something I always take the time to say to
anyone signing /R during the contest. You guys are definitely the hard
working and dedicated operators out there. I just wish roverlog wasn't
so weird and flaky.

tom
K0TAR

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 20:09:04 -0500, tom wrote:

Rich Griffiths wrote:
snip my stuff

As a member of the club that has taken roving to new heights over the
years, I can safely say that it is indeed "roving".

The rovers got us as many 10GHz grids this weekend as the sum total of
the previous 11 contests. And they don't play the games that some of
the east coast "owned" rovers do.

Ssshhhh! That's supposed to be a secret ;-)

The rovers in the upper Midwest will,
and will try to, work anyone and everyone. Cooperation amongst
competition makes for a better contest.

I have no sense of shame. I'll work anyone :-)

And thank you for roving, something I always take the time to say to
anyone signing /R during the contest. You guys are definitely the hard
working and dedicated operators out there.

My pleasure, but I appreciate the compliment.

--
Rich W2RG EM79 (and EM78, EN80, EM89, ....)

Rich Griffiths wrote:
The rovers got us as many 10GHz grids this weekend as the sum total of
the previous 11 contests. And they don't play the games that some of
the east coast "owned" rovers do.

Ssshhhh! That's supposed to be a secret ;-)


An unfortunate smear on the east coast in general, especially since I am
from there. It is well known who the stations/clubs are that get away
with it. I would make a disparaging remark about the blessed League
caring about cheating here, but it would offend the masses.

tom
K0TAR

tom wrote:
Rich Griffiths wrote:
The rovers got us as many 10GHz grids this weekend as the sum total of
the previous 11 contests. And they don't play the games that some of
the east coast "owned" rovers do.

Ssshhhh! That's supposed to be a secret ;-)


An unfortunate smear on the east coast in general, especially since I am
from there. It is well known who the stations/clubs are that get away
with it. I would make a disparaging remark about the blessed League
caring about cheating here, but it would offend the masses.

All contesters cheat except for me and thee....


So if I go roving, and I don't belong to one of these clubs, will they
not talk to me?

And if they are cheating, and it's documented, why hasn't anyone
submitted proof, and get their sorry butts DQ'ed?

Takes lots of people to cheat, those cheating, and those putting up with it.

Sorry for the rant, but as a person who runs a contest, I get many, many
accusations of people or clubs cheating, and precious little to support
that. Most of the time the accuser pops up with great angst, describing
the terrible situation, the nefarious cheaters, and often the complicity
of the contest organizers. Then when pressed for proof, the reply is
usually "Gee, I don't want to start anything!"

Not sayin, I'm just sayin'...

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

On Jun 18, 11:59*am, Michael Coslo wrote:
tom wrote:
Rich Griffiths wrote:
The rovers got us as many 10GHz grids this weekend as the sum total of
the previous 11 contests. *And they don't play the games that some of
the east coast "owned" rovers do.

Ssshhhh! * That's supposed to be a secret *;-)

An unfortunate smear on the east coast in general, especially since I am
from there. *It is well known who the stations/clubs are that get away
with it. *I would make a disparaging remark about the blessed League
caring about cheating here, but it would offend the masses.

* * * * All contesters cheat except for me and thee....

So if I go roving, and I don't belong to one of these clubs, will they
not talk to me?

And if they are cheating, and it's documented, why hasn't anyone
submitted proof, and get their sorry butts DQ'ed?

Takes lots of people to cheat, those cheating, and those putting up with it.

Sorry for the rant, but as a person who runs a contest, I get many, many
accusations of people or clubs cheating, and precious little to support
that. Most of the time the accuser pops up with great angst, describing
the terrible situation, the nefarious cheaters, and often the complicity
of the contest organizers. Then when pressed for proof, the reply is
usually "Gee, I don't want to start anything!"

Not sayin, I'm just sayin'...

* * * * - 73 de Mike N3LI -

Hey, Dark Guard. Long time no hear. I thought you were active on in
misc.survivalism?

Michael Coslo wrote:

All contesters cheat except for me and thee....


So if I go roving, and I don't belong to one of these clubs, will they
not talk to me?

And if they are cheating, and it's documented, why hasn't anyone
submitted proof, and get their sorry butts DQ'ed?

Takes lots of people to cheat, those cheating, and those putting up with
it.

Sorry for the rant, but as a person who runs a contest, I get many, many
accusations of people or clubs cheating, and precious little to support
that. Most of the time the accuser pops up with great angst, describing
the terrible situation, the nefarious cheaters, and often the complicity
of the contest organizers. Then when pressed for proof, the reply is
usually "Gee, I don't want to start anything!"

Not sayin, I'm just sayin'...

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

First, not all contesters cheat. My experience is few VHF and up
contesters cheat.

Second, the rovers are the key to the cheat. Fixed stations love to
work rovers because of the point and grid benefits. The cheating is the
rovers who won't work anyone but the mothership.

Third, it's not documented since no one will publicly admit to it, which
should be obvious. Privately is a different matter.

The cheaters are known. Very well known in some cases.

tom
K0TAR