"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

"Dave" wrote
...

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

"tom" wrote
. net...
Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

For practical engineers the math theory is useless.

But for real engineers math is everything. If you can't back it up
with figures, you're only guessing.

The figures are also in empiric equations. Engineers use only such.
S*

you have obviously never been an engineer... except maybe the type that
drives a train.

In this book:
http://books.google.pl/books?id=f3as...age&q=&f=false

no equations, no terms like transversal and so on. Sometimes the Authors
include a math theory. Each math theory has some simplifications. In
nature not separate transverse and longitudinal waves. The math is
separate. Maxwell was the genius. He made the ether model as a solid
body. For Him it was very easy. He also wrote 60 pages of equations for
the Saturn rings. He was also able to write a math for liquid or gas
ether. But he lived too short.

obviously that isn't an engineering text, that is a handbook similar to the
arrl antenna book, it looks like it presents very basic theory and practical
design equations. go read kraus or jackson for real engineering education
texts on electromagnetic stuff.



I wanted to know if radio people observe the frequency doubling when
receiving signals from a dipole. It should be easy to check it.
For me is enough to know (from this Group) that such was observed and is
known as the Luxembourg effect.
S*



no we don't. and yet, it would be painfully obvious here running
multi-operator in contests with harmonically related bands. it just doesn't
happen the way you are dreaming.

"joe" ...
Szczepan Białek wrote:


"Cecil Moore" wrote
...
Szczepan Białek wrote:
In nature not separate transverse and longitudinal waves.

Longitudinal waves require a medium. For many years,
empty space was considered to be empty. We now know
that "empty" space is not empty and has a structure
that teems with quantum particles, i.e. the "aether"
actually exists although not in the conventional
matter form that was earlier assumed.

Sound waves propagate in conventionall matter form (gas, liquid, solid).
They always have the two components (transverse and longitudinal). In
practice is the full analogy acoustic waves - electric waves.

If you are saying that propagation of sound and radio are the same, you'll
have a lot of work to make me believe that.

Let us start then. Do you know a phenomenon which is not common?

It is not easy to to describe the aether. But it exists in common term
"eter waves". The ether waves are artifically produced and for this
reason
we know more about them. To produce them we do not need to know if they
are electric or EM.
After some time will be clear which vision (Ampere or Heaviside) is in
agreement with practice,

I wanted to know if radio people observe the frequency doubling when
receiving signals from a dipole.

Frequency doubling can occur in non-linear systems.
Every powered transistor stage has a certain degree
of non-linearity. A passive antenna system is usually
linear.

You are saying about frequency changing. Are many ways to decrease a
frequency and a few to increase. Doubling is a special case of
increasing.
In the Luxembourg effect no frequency doubling in above sense. All
antenas
radiate in complex way. It is also obvious that it radiate from different
parts. That radiation from different parts may be not in phase at the
receiver. They may be in the opposite phase (like for dipoles). Here is
the key. Opposite phase means also the two pulses in one cycle.

You have no understanding about how two signals combine at an antenna.

Each
receiver has its own resonant frequency. In the result long waves were
received as medium waves with the twice more frequency. There were no
doubling in your understanding.

You really need to understand the difference between linear systems
and non-linear systems. Do some reading to understand how two signals
interact in each type of system.

Once you understand the math (yes, it IS important), you may see how cross
modulation occurs.

Now no math for electrons. All is for incompressible massless fluid.
S*


S*

"Szczepan Bia³ek" wrote in message
...

"joe" ...
Szczepan Białek wrote:


"Cecil Moore" wrote
...
Szczepan Białek wrote:
In nature not separate transverse and longitudinal waves.

Longitudinal waves require a medium. For many years,
empty space was considered to be empty. We now know
that "empty" space is not empty and has a structure
that teems with quantum particles, i.e. the "aether"
actually exists although not in the conventional
matter form that was earlier assumed.

Sound waves propagate in conventionall matter form (gas, liquid, solid).
They always have the two components (transverse and longitudinal). In
practice is the full analogy acoustic waves - electric waves.

If you are saying that propagation of sound and radio are the same,
you'll
have a lot of work to make me believe that.

Let us start then. Do you know a phenomenon which is not common?


* Polarisation, of course!

I suppose you're going to tell us now that sound waves are polarised!

Chris

"Dave" wrote
...

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


The figures are also in empiric equations. Engineers use only such.
S*

you have obviously never been an engineer... except maybe the type that
drives a train.

In this book:
http://books.google.pl/books?id=f3as...age&q=&f=false

no equations, no terms like transversal and so on. Sometimes the Authors
include a math theory. Each math theory has some simplifications. In
nature not separate transverse and longitudinal waves. The math is
separate. Maxwell was the genius. He made the ether model as a solid
body. For Him it was very easy. He also wrote 60 pages of equations for
the Saturn rings. He was also able to write a math for liquid or gas
ether. But he lived too short.

obviously that isn't an engineering text, that is a handbook similar to
the arrl antenna book, it looks like it presents very basic theory and
practical design equations. go read kraus or jackson for real engineering
education texts on electromagnetic stuff.

Maxwell PROPOSED the EM model of aether. All teachers use it to teach the
math.
The "very basic theory and practical design equations" are based on the
electron behaviour.
In EM no electrons which are compressible and have the inertia.
Do you belive that the "displacement current" exist?.
It is the result of ASSUMPTION that electricity is a incompressible massless
fluid.

I wanted to know if radio people observe the frequency doubling when
receiving signals from a dipole. It should be easy to check it.
For me is enough to know (from this Group) that such was observed and is
known as the Luxembourg effect.

no we don't.

We now. But in 1930 they did.
S*

"christofire" wrote
...

"Szczepan Bia³ek" wrote in message
...


Sound waves propagate in conventionall matter form (gas, liquid,
solid).
They always have the two components (transverse and longitudinal). In
practice is the full analogy acoustic waves - electric waves.

If you are saying that propagation of sound and radio are the same,
you'll
have a lot of work to make me believe that.

Let us start then. Do you know a phenomenon which is not common?


* Polarisation, of course!

I suppose you're going to tell us now that sound waves are polarised!

And you tell us that radiation from monopoles antennas is polarised.
There was a topic polarisation. In wave area is term alignment when we have
the two sources. Aligment of "dipoles" not means that waves are
"transverse".
In the reality no transverse waves. Waves appear in compressible medium. All
waves are the "pressure" waves. In math you can assume incompressibility.
But we here NO.
S*


Chris

joe wrote:


If you are saying that propagation of sound and radio are the same, you'll
have a lot of work to make me believe that.

Yeah, you beat me to the punch........


Now if i might digress a moment, with a situation that is a little
similar. I had a colleague who had some odd ideas about other things
propagating.

bodily function alert!

His idea was that farts were little bits, particles if you will, of
fecal matter that propagated out of one's posterior and transported
themselves to other people's noses. Dunno if those particles had any
spin tho'. I will allow other readers to determine if any similarities
exist here.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

"Szczepan Bia³ek" wrote in message
...

"christofire" wrote
...

"Szczepan Bia³ek" wrote in message
...


Sound waves propagate in conventionall matter form (gas, liquid,
solid).
They always have the two components (transverse and longitudinal). In
practice is the full analogy acoustic waves - electric waves.

If you are saying that propagation of sound and radio are the same,
you'll
have a lot of work to make me believe that.

Let us start then. Do you know a phenomenon which is not common?


* Polarisation, of course!

I suppose you're going to tell us now that sound waves are polarised!

And you tell us that radiation from monopoles antennas is polarised.
There was a topic polarisation. In wave area is term alignment when we
have the two sources. Aligment of "dipoles" not means that waves are
"transverse".
In the reality no transverse waves. Waves appear in compressible medium.
All waves are the "pressure" waves. In math you can assume
incompressibility. But we here NO.
S*


Chris



Google turns up 44,200 hits for monopole antenna polarization - I was pretty
sure my monopole radiated polarized 'waves'.

Dave

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

And you tell us that radiation from monopoles antennas is polarised.
There was a topic polarisation. In wave area is term alignment when we
have the two sources. Aligment of "dipoles" not means that waves are
"transverse".
In the reality no transverse waves. Waves appear in compressible medium.
All waves are the "pressure" waves. In math you can assume
incompressibility. But we here NO.
S*

So, pray tell, explain the physics of a vertically polarized pressure wave.

You obviously know what's going on here, and I do not. Please educate me.

tom
K0TAR

On Sep 10, 5:35*am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
And you tell us that radiation from monopoles antennas is polarised.
_____________

S*, you might want to conduct a simple and practical test of your
belief for yourself, to learn whether or not it is true.

A great many/almost all MW, AM broadcast stations use an antenna
system comprised of one or more vertical monopoles. Such vertical-
only polarisation greatly reduces the propagation loss for the ground
wave, and so increases the ground wave coverage area -- whether or not
a MW station has a directional radiation pattern in the horizontal
plane.

Such was scientifically investigated and scientifically proven many
decades ago. This reality is _very_ important to the commercial
success of AM broadcast stations.

Most compact, and inexpensive MW AM broadcast receivers use an
integrated, ferrite core "loopstick" receive antenna.

When such receivers are oriented with their control legends and
displays aligned in the horizontal plane, as when the bottom/back of
the receiver is sitting on a table, they respond most efficiently to
vertically-polarised electromagnetic waves.

THE TEST:

Using such an AM receiver and physical setup, tune to a moderately-
powered, omnidirectional MW broadcast station located at least 20 km
away from your receive location. Then rotate the receiver 360 degrees
around its vertical axis.

With no co-channel signals, you will find that the received signal-to-
noise ratio for that station goes through two, distinct nulls
corresponding to the physical orientations of its receive antenna that
are 180 degrees apart, and along a line of sight from your receive
location to the location of the transmit antenna.

This result demonstrates that such radiation is (vertically)
polarised.

RF

tom wrote:

So, pray tell, explain the physics of a vertically polarized pressure wave.

You obviously know what's going on here, and I do not. Please educate me.

Sigh - Tom, there is not often the need to be sarcastic when you are
correct! 8^)

- 73 de Mike N3LI -