"Richard Fry" wrote
...
On Sep 10, 5:35 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
And you tell us that radiation from monopoles antennas is polarised.
_____________

S*, you might want to conduct a simple and practical test of your
belief for yourself, to learn whether or not it is true.

A great many/almost all MW, AM broadcast stations use an antenna
system comprised of one or more vertical monopoles.

So you know what is the directivity and phasing.

Such vertical-only polarisation greatly reduces the propagation loss for
the ground
wave, and so increases the ground wave coverage area -- whether or not
a MW station has a directional radiation pattern in the horizontal
plane.

Two vertical monopoles not in phase are like one horizontal dipole. In phase
are like two sources.

Such was scientifically investigated and scientifically proven many
decades ago. This reality is _very_ important to the commercial
success of AM broadcast stations.

Most compact, and inexpensive MW AM broadcast receivers use an
integrated, ferrite core "loopstick" receive antenna.

When such receivers are oriented with their control legends and
displays aligned in the horizontal plane, as when the bottom/back of
the receiver is sitting on a table, they respond most efficiently to
vertically-polarised electromagnetic waves.

When the two sources work the receiver must be propery "algned" (physically
oriented).

THE TEST:

Using such an AM receiver and physical setup, tune to a moderately-
powered, omnidirectional MW broadcast station located at least 20 km
away from your receive location. Then rotate the receiver 360 degrees
around its vertical axis.

With no co-channel signals, you will find that the received signal-to-
noise ratio for that station goes through two, distinct nulls
corresponding to the physical orientations of its receive antenna that
are 180 degrees apart, and along a line of sight from your receive
location to the location of the transmit antenna.

This result demonstrates that such radiation is (vertically)
polarised.

If two sources work, interference take place. Equipments are "polarised" not
waves.

I have not possibility to "conduct any simple and practical test". In the
other topic you wrote: "Only thing is that my plots are based on 1/2-wave
antennas." If it means that you have possbilities to measure a directional
radiation pattern then do such:

The TEST:
1. Measure the pattern for a declared frequency,
2. Measure the pattern for the doubled frequency,

Tell us the findings.
Already I have proposed it to Wim. Now I am proposed it to all of You.
S*


RF

"Dave Holford" wrote
...


Google turns up 44,200 hits for monopole antenna polarization - I was
pretty sure my monopole radiated polarized 'waves'.

If monopole radiate from wire (many sources in line) without tipping there
is a pseudo-polarization.
For this reason tipping is sometimes used.
S*

"tom" wrote
. net...
Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

And you tell us that radiation from monopoles antennas is polarised.
There was a topic polarisation. In wave area is term alignment when we
have the two sources. Aligment of "dipoles" not means that waves are
"transverse".
In the reality no transverse waves. Waves appear in compressible medium.
All waves are the "pressure" waves. In math you can assume
incompressibility. But we here NO.
S*

So, pray tell, explain the physics of a vertically polarized pressure
wave.

One wave is not polarised. The two pressure waves from the two sources
interfere. See "Directivity and phasing".

You obviously know what's going on here, and I do not. Please educate me.

"This fourth edition blends, in Joseph J. Carr's words, "the theoretical
concepts that the engineers and others need to design practical antennas,
and the hard-learned practical lessons derived from actually building and
using antennas -real antennas, and the hard-earned practical lessons derived
from actually building and using antennas - real antennas made of real
metal - not merely theoretical constructs on a blackboard."

Now is the electronic era. Electronic is from electrons. They are
compressible and have the inertia. You all construct antennas where
electrons build up voltage. But on the blackboard are math for
incompressible fluid. Look at the famous equations - there no voltage at all
(only current).
If somebody do math for electrons then such math will be on the blackboards.
But it is not necessary. The beautifull EM equations are the same like for
fluid mechanics. They will be saved. Radio engineers do not use them and can
wait for the proper ones the next centuries.
S*

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

"tom" wrote
. net...
Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

And you tell us that radiation from monopoles antennas is polarised.
There was a topic polarisation. In wave area is term alignment when we
have the two sources. Aligment of "dipoles" not means that waves are
"transverse".
In the reality no transverse waves. Waves appear in compressible medium.
All waves are the "pressure" waves. In math you can assume
incompressibility. But we here NO.
S*

So, pray tell, explain the physics of a vertically polarized pressure
wave.

One wave is not polarised. The two pressure waves from the two sources
interfere. See "Directivity and phasing".

You obviously know what's going on here, and I do not. Please educate
me.

"This fourth edition blends, in Joseph J. Carr's words, "the theoretical
concepts that the engineers and others need to design practical antennas,
and the hard-learned practical lessons derived from actually building and
using antennas -real antennas, and the hard-earned practical lessons
derived from actually building and using antennas - real antennas made of
real metal - not merely theoretical constructs on a blackboard."

Now is the electronic era. Electronic is from electrons. They are
compressible and have the inertia. You all construct antennas where
electrons build up voltage. But on the blackboard are math for
incompressible fluid.

no it isn't. you are obviously way out of date. stop looking way in the
past for theories that were obviously disproven decades ago and look at
modern texts to see which ones have survived 100+ years of experimental
evidence.

Look at the famous equations - there no voltage at all (only current).

in any electronic system you really only need voltage OR current, they are
always related by the impedance. So if you read modern texts you will often
see that they derive equations in either voltage or current form then show
the other form for reference, or sometimes leave it as an excercise for the
student.

If somebody do math for electrons then such math will be on the
blackboards.
But it is not necessary. The beautifull EM equations are the same like for
fluid mechanics. They will be saved. Radio engineers do not use them and
can wait for the proper ones the next centuries.

no, real engineers are trying to educate people like you who are stuck in
the past with outdated theories and simplified misconceptions... or we could
just ignore you and hope you go away quickly. personally i think it is more
fun to watch what comes out of the mouths of babes when you tickle their
feet.

On Sep 11, 2:39*am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
If two sources work, interference take place. Equipments
are "polarised" not waves.
__________________

The net, far-field radiation of two vertical monopoles in a
directional array driven by one transmitter using a power dividing
network is vertically polarised -- because both monopole sources are
vertically polarised.

This type of array is commonly used in commercial AM broadcasting, and
its characteristics (including its polarisation) have been accurately
known for many decades.

RF

Szczepan Białek wrote:

"Dave Holford" wrote
...


Google turns up 44,200 hits for monopole antenna polarization - I was
pretty sure my monopole radiated polarized 'waves'.

If monopole radiate from wire (many sources in line) without tipping there
is a pseudo-polarization.
For this reason tipping is sometimes used.
S*

Gibberish.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

U¿ytkownik "Richard Fry" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
On Sep 11, 2:39 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
If two sources work, interference take place. Equipments
are "polarised" not waves.
__________________

The net, far-field radiation of two vertical monopoles in a
directional array driven by one transmitter using a power dividing
network is vertically polarised -- because both monopole sources are
vertically polarised.

This type of array is commonly used in commercial AM broadcasting, and
its characteristics (including its polarisation) have been accurately
known for many decades.

Most hams know that a vertical antenna creates a radio wave with vertical
polarization and a horizontal antenna creates a horizontally.

The both antennas (transmitter and receiver) should be aligned. You wrote:
"Most compact, and inexpensive MW AM broadcast receivers use an integrated,
ferrite core "loopstick" receive antenna.

When such receivers are oriented with their control legends and
displays aligned in the horizontal plane, as when the bottom/back of
the receiver is sitting on a table, "

It means that the waves are horizontaly polarized. Next you wrote"

"they respond most efficiently to vertically-polarised electromagnetic
waves." I assume that it is a small mistake.
The following is known for many decades:

One mast is omnidirectional. The two are directional like a horizontal
dipole. For this reason "This type of array is commonly used in commercial
AM broadcasting".

I wrote: "The TEST:
1. Measure the pattern for a declared frequency,
2. Measure the pattern for the doubled frequency.

Some clarification is necessary. The doubled frequency should be set on a
receiving/measuring device.
Each mast radiate omidirectionally. The radiation of the array of the two
interfere. Also in some places it may be received as the doubled frequency.
S*

On Sep 11, 1:45*pm, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
The both antennas (transmitter and receiver) should be aligned. You wrote:
"Most compact, and inexpensive MW AM broadcast receivers use an integrated,
ferrite core "loopstick" receive antenna.

When such receivers are oriented with their control legends and
displays aligned in the horizontal plane, as when the bottom/back of
the receiver is sitting on a table, "

S* then wrote:

It means that the waves are horizontaly polarized.

Not so. The receive antenna I described responds to the magnetic
field, not the electric field. In an EM wave these two fields are at
right angles to each other, and to the direction of travel.

The polarisation of a wave is given by the physical orientation of its
electric field. If that field is vertically polarised then the
receive antenna I described will receive maximum (magnetic) field, and
my experiment will prove that the incoming EM wave is vertically
polarised.

One mast is omnidirectional. The two are directional like a horizontal
dipole.

However a horizontal dipole radiates horizontally polarised waves. A
directional MW array radiates vertically polarized waves, regardless
of the shape of its azimuth pattern.

RF

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

U¿ytkownik "Richard Fry" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
On Sep 11, 2:39 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
If two sources work, interference take place. Equipments
are "polarised" not waves.
__________________

The net, far-field radiation of two vertical monopoles in a
directional array driven by one transmitter using a power dividing
network is vertically polarised -- because both monopole sources are
vertically polarised.

This type of array is commonly used in commercial AM broadcasting, and
its characteristics (including its polarisation) have been accurately
known for many decades.

Most hams know that a vertical antenna creates a radio wave with vertical
polarization and a horizontal antenna creates a horizontally.

The both antennas (transmitter and receiver) should be aligned. You wrote:
"Most compact, and inexpensive MW AM broadcast receivers use an
integrated, ferrite core "loopstick" receive antenna.

When such receivers are oriented with their control legends and
displays aligned in the horizontal plane, as when the bottom/back of
the receiver is sitting on a table, "

It means that the waves are horizontaly polarized. Next you wrote"

"they respond most efficiently to vertically-polarised electromagnetic
waves." I assume that it is a small mistake.
The following is known for many decades:

One mast is omnidirectional. The two are directional like a horizontal
dipole. For this reason "This type of array is commonly used in commercial
AM broadcasting".

I wrote: "The TEST:
1. Measure the pattern for a declared frequency,
2. Measure the pattern for the doubled frequency.

Some clarification is necessary. The doubled frequency should be set on a
receiving/measuring device.
Each mast radiate omidirectionally. The radiation of the array of the two
interfere. Also in some places it may be received as the doubled
frequency.
S*

no, it won't.

On Sep 11, 4:43*pm, "Dave" wrote:
no, it won't.
__________

What scientific analysis/proof will provide to support your point of
view?

RF