Gene Fuller wrote:
There is no need to invoke interference or wave cancellation to explain
anything, ...

But there is, Gene. It's the only way to correct the present
misinformation and old wives' tales being promoted on this
newsgroup. It is obvious that the r.r.a.a poster who
understands the role that interference plays in the
conservation of RF energy is very rare.

There is a conspiracy to keep this information from
surfacing - "Nothing new", "no need", "irrelevant",
"who cares?" Why are you guys afraid to discuss the
technical details?

This should be an easy question to answer. If two coherent
waves of 50 joules/sec each, are traveling in the same
path in the same direction and are 180 degrees out of
phase, they cancel in that direction of travel. What
happens to their 50+50 joules/sec? Hint: energy doesn't
cancel and there are only two possible directions. Can
you spell R-E-F-L-E-C-T-I-O-N?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Cecil,

Nice try.

You first.

Describe how you set up this coherent wave/anti-wave pair that happily
travel together for some indeterminate distance. Then I will describe
what happens when at some arbitrary point and time they decide to
annihilate.

I will repeat one more time, since you did not seem to understand
previously.

* Maxwell's equations are all that is needed.

* Interference is *derived* from the correct application of Maxwell's
equations. It is not an independent physical entity.

* Interference may be "intuitive" and it may help your understanding,
but it adds precisely nothing to the physics of the problem. Everything
you believe is buried in the magic of interference is already built into
Maxwell's equations.

73,
Gene
W4SZ



Cecil Moore wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote:

There is no need to invoke interference or wave cancellation to
explain anything, ...


But there is, Gene. It's the only way to correct the present
misinformation and old wives' tales being promoted on this
newsgroup. It is obvious that the r.r.a.a poster who
understands the role that interference plays in the
conservation of RF energy is very rare.

There is a conspiracy to keep this information from
surfacing - "Nothing new", "no need", "irrelevant",
"who cares?" Why are you guys afraid to discuss the
technical details?

This should be an easy question to answer. If two coherent
waves of 50 joules/sec each, are traveling in the same
path in the same direction and are 180 degrees out of
phase, they cancel in that direction of travel. What
happens to their 50+50 joules/sec? Hint: energy doesn't
cancel and there are only two possible directions. Can
you spell R-E-F-L-E-C-T-I-O-N?

Gene Fuller wrote:

Cecil,

Nice try.

You first.

Describe how you set up this coherent wave/anti-wave pair that happily
travel together for some indeterminate distance. Then I will describe
what happens when at some arbitrary point and time they decide to
annihilate.

Sure, here's the two coherent reflected waves that cancel at a
Z0-matched impedance discontinuity in a transmission line.

b1 = s11*a1 + s12*a2 = 0

I'm sure you recognize the S-parameter equation for the reflected
voltage flowing toward the source which is the phasor sum of two
other reflected voltages.

They don't travel together for some indeterminate distance. They
are cancelled within the first dl and dt. And they don't annihilate.
They simply cancel in the rearward direction.

Incidentally, if you square both sides of the equation you get

b1^2 = s11^2*a1^2 + s12^2*a2^2 + 2*s11*a1*s12*a2

Pref1 = rho^2*Pfor1 + (1-rho^2)*Pref2 + interference

The forward voltage equation toward the load is b2 = s21*a1 + s22*a2
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Cecil,

You completely ducked the question. How did those waves get there in the
first place? Hint: there are no laws for conservation of waves or
continuity of waves.

It is easy to set up a problem with physically unrealizable inputs. It
is pointless to try to solve such a problem, however.

We've been around this track a couple of times before. Neither of us has
changed.

Bye.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Cecil Moore wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote:

Cecil,

Nice try.

You first.

Describe how you set up this coherent wave/anti-wave pair that happily
travel together for some indeterminate distance. Then I will describe
what happens when at some arbitrary point and time they decide to
annihilate.


Sure, here's the two coherent reflected waves that cancel at a
Z0-matched impedance discontinuity in a transmission line.

b1 = s11*a1 + s12*a2 = 0

I'm sure you recognize the S-parameter equation for the reflected
voltage flowing toward the source which is the phasor sum of two
other reflected voltages.

They don't travel together for some indeterminate distance. They
are cancelled within the first dl and dt. And they don't annihilate.
They simply cancel in the rearward direction.

Incidentally, if you square both sides of the equation you get

b1^2 = s11^2*a1^2 + s12^2*a2^2 + 2*s11*a1*s12*a2

Pref1 = rho^2*Pfor1 + (1-rho^2)*Pref2 + interference

The forward voltage equation toward the load is b2 = s21*a1 + s22*a2

Gene Fuller wrote:
You completely ducked the question. How did those waves get there in the
first place? Hint: there are no laws for conservation of waves or
continuity of waves.

I answered the question in another posting. The waves got there
during the power-on transient state. Conservation of energy is
assumed. Hope you don't disagree with that principle.

If we make Roy's lossless 50 ohm feedline one second long (an
integer number of wavelengths), during steady-state, the source
will have supplied 68 joules of energy that has not reached the
load. That will continue throughout steady state. The 68 joules
of energy will be dissipated by the system during the power-off
transient state.

What you guys are trying to do is hide 68 joules of energy that
cannot be destroyed. Where can you hide it in a transmission line
to prove that it is not there in the forward and reflected waves?
What is your agenda in trying to deny/hide/disguise/ignore that
68 joules of energy?

In the one second example, the forward and reflected waves require
68 joules of energy for their existence in the feedline. The source
has supplied 68 joules of energy that has not yet reached the load
so it must necessarily still be in the feedline. Wonder where
the energy in the forward and reflected waves came from? Shirley,
you jest!

Incidentally, QEX wants to publish my article.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---