On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:33:53 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

Ham op:

Just drew the circuit of a xtal in the feedback of a high precision op amp
circuit... hmmm, could be colpitts--but can't see the resemblance...

Just drew the circuit of an xtal chucked in the feedback line of a set of logic
gates... hmmm, that could be colpitts too, but again, can't see the
resemblance...

Draw a transistor (FET, or triode) with a capacitor from collector
(drain, plate) to emitter (source, cathode), an inductor from
collector to base (gate, grid), and a capacitor from base to emitter.

Ground the emitter and everything connected to it and take the output
from the collector. You have a Pierce. Replace the inductor with a
crystal and you have a Pierce oscillator with the crystal operating in
the anti-resonant mode.

Ground the collector and everything connected to it and take the
output from the emitter. You have a Colpitts. Replace the inductor
with a crystal and you have a Colpitts oscillator with the crystal
operating in the anti-resonant mode.

Insert a crystal between the emitter and the two capacitors connected
to it and take the output from the emitter and you have a crystal
oscillator operating at series (or overtone) resonance.

Stick a varactor in there someplace and you have a VCO or VCXO.

Clapp, Vacker, Franklin, Butler.... they are all just variations on an
old theme.

Wes:

Of course there are millions, if not billions of 'em in my computer, encased in
the chips there, but having viewed many, many spec sheets and diagrams of the
internal geometry of the chips, can't say I would really bet there is a
colpitts commanding the freq of the bus in my computer, nor the daughter boards
in their...

Now you might be right, it is just an argument I must defer from, since
reliable data one way or another cannot be obtained without expending more
effort than I am prepared to expend... I'll even grant you a win by
default--the argument simply is not deserving of my time, and anyone with
access to the internet can look at a diagram depicting components used in the
clocks of "modern circuits."

John

"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:33:53 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

Ham op:

Just drew the circuit of a xtal in the feedback of a high precision op amp
circuit... hmmm, could be colpitts--but can't see the resemblance...

Just drew the circuit of an xtal chucked in the feedback line of a set of
logic
gates... hmmm, that could be colpitts too, but again, can't see the
resemblance...

Draw a transistor (FET, or triode) with a capacitor from collector
(drain, plate) to emitter (source, cathode), an inductor from
collector to base (gate, grid), and a capacitor from base to emitter.

Ground the emitter and everything connected to it and take the output
from the collector. You have a Pierce. Replace the inductor with a
crystal and you have a Pierce oscillator with the crystal operating in
the anti-resonant mode.

Ground the collector and everything connected to it and take the
output from the emitter. You have a Colpitts. Replace the inductor
with a crystal and you have a Colpitts oscillator with the crystal
operating in the anti-resonant mode.

Insert a crystal between the emitter and the two capacitors connected
to it and take the output from the emitter and you have a crystal
oscillator operating at series (or overtone) resonance.

Stick a varactor in there someplace and you have a VCO or VCXO.

Clapp, Vacker, Franklin, Butler.... they are all just variations on an
old theme.

Ham op wrote:
HEAVEN!!! for goodness sakes!

If it's the heaven my Southern Baptist tetotaler mother
told me about, the drinks will be severely limited to
water and grape juice. :-)

Cecil Moore wrote:

John Smith wrote:
Remember, when all is said and done, we must shake hands and have a
drink together...

Would that be in heaven or the other place? :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:47:39 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

Wes:

Of course there are millions, if not billions of 'em in my computer, encased in
the chips there, but having viewed many, many spec sheets and diagrams of the
internal geometry of the chips, can't say I would really bet there is a
colpitts commanding the freq of the bus in my computer, nor the daughter boards
in their...(sic)

Well, there is usually only one oscillator, not billions, and I'm sure
that I said "Pierce", not Colpitts.


Now you might be right, it is just an argument I must defer from, since
reliable data one way or another cannot be obtained without expending more
effort than I am prepared to expend... I'll even grant you a win by
default--the argument simply is not deserving of my time, and anyone with
access to the internet can look at a diagram depicting components used in the
clocks of "modern circuits."

I just did a little "data mining." Out of the last 188 posts in this
forum, you made 47 of them, or 25%. Perhaps if you "expended some of
the effort" that you waste writing every fourth post you would have a
little time to actually research what you're saying -before- you write
about it. Just a thought.

BTW, I wasn't trying to "win", I was trying to correct the insane idea
that knowledge of "old time" oscillators is unworthy of study when
talking about "modern" radios. The fact that this belief exists is
proof positive that questions about these things should remain in the
amateur exams. But expending effort to learn the basics is too much
effort for "modern" hams.

Plus the applicant's self-esteem might suffer if he has to gain a
little knowledge of electronics, antennas, transmission lines, good
operating practice and Morse code, so I suppose the FCC should just
issue licenses to anyone who makes a request.



"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:33:53 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

Ham op:

Just drew the circuit of a xtal in the feedback of a high precision op amp
circuit... hmmm, could be colpitts--but can't see the resemblance...

Just drew the circuit of an xtal chucked in the feedback line of a set of
logic
gates... hmmm, that could be colpitts too, but again, can't see the
resemblance...

Draw a transistor (FET, or triode) with a capacitor from collector
(drain, plate) to emitter (source, cathode), an inductor from
collector to base (gate, grid), and a capacitor from base to emitter.

Ground the emitter and everything connected to it and take the output
from the collector. You have a Pierce. Replace the inductor with a
crystal and you have a Pierce oscillator with the crystal operating in
the anti-resonant mode.

Ground the collector and everything connected to it and take the
output from the emitter. You have a Colpitts. Replace the inductor
with a crystal and you have a Colpitts oscillator with the crystal
operating in the anti-resonant mode.

Insert a crystal between the emitter and the two capacitors connected
to it and take the output from the emitter and you have a crystal
oscillator operating at series (or overtone) resonance.

Stick a varactor in there someplace and you have a VCO or VCXO.

Clapp, Vacker, Franklin, Butler.... they are all just variations on an
old theme.

My sentiments exactly. Thanks for saying it Wes.

73,
Larry, W0QE


Wes Stewart wrote:

I just did a little "data mining." Out of the last 188 posts in this
forum, you made 47 of them, or 25%. Perhaps if you "expended some of
the effort" that you waste writing every fourth post you would have a
little time to actually research what you're saying -before- you write
about it. Just a thought.

Wes:

I had dropped the all important word "transistors" in reference to
"millions... billions". I never dreamed anyone could be mistaken that
someone was claiming that many osc's in a computer, but you never can
tell about the CB'ers--they might think so!

Here is a mess of stuff on clocks, osc's which are generally used in
digital equip these days (and this is stuff I am used to,
a decade old or better technology, probably two decades!):

.... it should be apparent mr. pierce is not
here in (at least most) of this material:

Simple logic gate oscillator:
http://www.it.lth.se/digp/PDF_files/oscillators.pdf

Design of op amp oscillators:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slyt164/slyt164.pdf

CMOS oscillator:
http://www.ee.washington.edu/circuit...ASCIISCHEM_004

Clock divider:
http://www.ee.washington.edu/circuit...s/clockdiv.txt

clock doubler:
http://www.ee.washington.edu/circuit...ckdoubler.html

square wave to sine converter:
http://www.ee.washington.edu/circuit...quare2sine.txt

pdf on digital oscillators:
http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/cours..._TTL_Logic.pdf

Computer project, using 7404 as a clock:
https://www.cs.tcd.ie/Jeremy.Jones/3d2/3d2project.htm

John

"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:47:39 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

Wes:

Of course there are millions, if not billions of 'em in my computer, encased
in
the chips there, but having viewed many, many spec sheets and diagrams of the
internal geometry of the chips, can't say I would really bet there is a
colpitts commanding the freq of the bus in my computer, nor the daughter
boards
in their...(sic)

Well, there is usually only one oscillator, not billions, and I'm sure
that I said "Pierce", not Colpitts.


Now you might be right, it is just an argument I must defer from, since
reliable data one way or another cannot be obtained without expending more
effort than I am prepared to expend... I'll even grant you a win by
default--the argument simply is not deserving of my time, and anyone with
access to the internet can look at a diagram depicting components used in the
clocks of "modern circuits."

I just did a little "data mining." Out of the last 188 posts in this
forum, you made 47 of them, or 25%. Perhaps if you "expended some of
the effort" that you waste writing every fourth post you would have a
little time to actually research what you're saying -before- you write
about it. Just a thought.

BTW, I wasn't trying to "win", I was trying to correct the insane idea
that knowledge of "old time" oscillators is unworthy of study when
talking about "modern" radios. The fact that this belief exists is
proof positive that questions about these things should remain in the
amateur exams. But expending effort to learn the basics is too much
effort for "modern" hams.

Plus the applicant's self-esteem might suffer if he has to gain a
little knowledge of electronics, antennas, transmission lines, good
operating practice and Morse code, so I suppose the FCC should just
issue licenses to anyone who makes a request.



"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:33:53 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

Ham op:

Just drew the circuit of a xtal in the feedback of a high precision op amp
circuit... hmmm, could be colpitts--but can't see the resemblance...

Just drew the circuit of an xtal chucked in the feedback line of a set of
logic
gates... hmmm, that could be colpitts too, but again, can't see the
resemblance...

Draw a transistor (FET, or triode) with a capacitor from collector
(drain, plate) to emitter (source, cathode), an inductor from
collector to base (gate, grid), and a capacitor from base to emitter.

Ground the emitter and everything connected to it and take the output
from the collector. You have a Pierce. Replace the inductor with a
crystal and you have a Pierce oscillator with the crystal operating in
the anti-resonant mode.

Ground the collector and everything connected to it and take the
output from the emitter. You have a Colpitts. Replace the inductor
with a crystal and you have a Colpitts oscillator with the crystal
operating in the anti-resonant mode.

Insert a crystal between the emitter and the two capacitors connected
to it and take the output from the emitter and you have a crystal
oscillator operating at series (or overtone) resonance.

Stick a varactor in there someplace and you have a VCO or VCXO.

Clapp, Vacker, Franklin, Butler.... they are all just variations on an
old theme.

Wes:

On promptness of my responses...
(I am truly flattered my posts are worthy of such analysis on your part! I
would never have bothered gathering the statistics!)
I wrote a c++ utility/plug-in for outlook express, if I mark someone as being
of interest to me, when they post I am immediately notified with a small icon
and an audible alarm is given, if I click on the icon I can read their post and
begin a response immediately--if desired...

Now, don't go to thinking you are special, however, when your posts turn
interesting (or adversarial grin) I mark you (you are a "marked man" during
those times! grin)...

I have other tricks too... however, be warned, I consider this to be only a
newsgroup, my posts, indeed, everyone else's posts too, are just NOT that
important as some things in life... quick responses which may, or may not, be
well thought out are quickly typed and sent--I go back to what I was doing...

Don't get me wrong though, a person is as likely to come upon a nugget of
knowledge here, as anywhere, I suppose... anyway, there is a real "enjoyment
factor" which exits here, that is why we are here--isn't it?

Frankly, it is a bit of a hobby, just one a guy can do while doing a load of
other things...

John

"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:47:39 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

Wes:

Of course there are millions, if not billions of 'em in my computer, encased
in
the chips there, but having viewed many, many spec sheets and diagrams of the
internal geometry of the chips, can't say I would really bet there is a
colpitts commanding the freq of the bus in my computer, nor the daughter
boards
in their...(sic)

Well, there is usually only one oscillator, not billions, and I'm sure
that I said "Pierce", not Colpitts.


Now you might be right, it is just an argument I must defer from, since
reliable data one way or another cannot be obtained without expending more
effort than I am prepared to expend... I'll even grant you a win by
default--the argument simply is not deserving of my time, and anyone with
access to the internet can look at a diagram depicting components used in the
clocks of "modern circuits."

I just did a little "data mining." Out of the last 188 posts in this
forum, you made 47 of them, or 25%. Perhaps if you "expended some of
the effort" that you waste writing every fourth post you would have a
little time to actually research what you're saying -before- you write
about it. Just a thought.

BTW, I wasn't trying to "win", I was trying to correct the insane idea
that knowledge of "old time" oscillators is unworthy of study when
talking about "modern" radios. The fact that this belief exists is
proof positive that questions about these things should remain in the
amateur exams. But expending effort to learn the basics is too much
effort for "modern" hams.

Plus the applicant's self-esteem might suffer if he has to gain a
little knowledge of electronics, antennas, transmission lines, good
operating practice and Morse code, so I suppose the FCC should just
issue licenses to anyone who makes a request.



"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:33:53 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

Ham op:

Just drew the circuit of a xtal in the feedback of a high precision op amp
circuit... hmmm, could be colpitts--but can't see the resemblance...

Just drew the circuit of an xtal chucked in the feedback line of a set of
logic
gates... hmmm, that could be colpitts too, but again, can't see the
resemblance...

Draw a transistor (FET, or triode) with a capacitor from collector
(drain, plate) to emitter (source, cathode), an inductor from
collector to base (gate, grid), and a capacitor from base to emitter.

Ground the emitter and everything connected to it and take the output
from the collector. You have a Pierce. Replace the inductor with a
crystal and you have a Pierce oscillator with the crystal operating in
the anti-resonant mode.

Ground the collector and everything connected to it and take the
output from the emitter. You have a Colpitts. Replace the inductor
with a crystal and you have a Colpitts oscillator with the crystal
operating in the anti-resonant mode.

Insert a crystal between the emitter and the two capacitors connected
to it and take the output from the emitter and you have a crystal
oscillator operating at series (or overtone) resonance.

Stick a varactor in there someplace and you have a VCO or VCXO.

Clapp, Vacker, Franklin, Butler.... they are all just variations on an
old theme.

John Smith wrote:
I had dropped the all important word "transistors" in reference to
"millions... billions". I never dreamed anyone could be mistaken that
someone was claiming that many osc's in a computer, but you never can
tell about the CB'ers--they might think so!

How many oscillators are there if you include quantum oscillators? :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Cecil:

Good point, it is going on in there... I think of 'em more as "quantum white
noise generators."

John

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
John Smith wrote:
I had dropped the all important word "transistors" in reference to
"millions... billions". I never dreamed anyone could be mistaken that
someone was claiming that many osc's in a computer, but you never can
tell about the CB'ers--they might think so!

How many oscillators are there if you include quantum oscillators? :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:04:13 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

Wes:

I had dropped the all important word "transistors" in reference to
"millions... billions". I never dreamed anyone could be mistaken that
someone was claiming that many osc's in a computer, but you never can
tell about the CB'ers--they might think so!

Here is a mess of stuff on clocks, osc's which are generally used in
digital equip these days (and this is stuff I am used to,
a decade old or better technology, probably two decades!):

A mess indeed.

... it should be apparent mr. pierce is not
here in (at least most) of this material:


Well, he's he

http://www.mtron.com/pdf/eng_notes.pdf

(See Figure 8 and associated text.)

http://www.statek.com/new/pdf/tn30.pdf

http://www.statek.com/new/pdf/tn31.pdf



Simple logic gate oscillator:
http://www.it.lth.se/digp/PDF_files/oscillators.pdf

Thanks for making my point! "A better oscillator using inverter gates
is given in Figure 2." (This is a Pierce.)


Design of op amp oscillators:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slyt164/slyt164.pdf

Does not apply. Earlier I said, "All sine wave oscillators, LC or
crystal, are basically the same circuit with the only variable being
the location of the rf common point."

These are not LC or crystal oscillators. The only place you might
find one of these in a modern radio is in the sidetone oscillator.


CMOS oscillator:
http://www.ee.washington.edu/circuit...ASCIISCHEM_004

Tinker Toy

Clock divider:
http://www.ee.washington.edu/circuit...s/clockdiv.txt

Not an oscillator. You too busy writing to actually look at your
references?

clock doubler:
http://www.ee.washington.edu/circuit...ckdoubler.html

Op cit.

square wave to sine converter:
http://www.ee.washington.edu/circuit...quare2sine.txt

Op cit.

pdf on digital oscillators:
http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/cours..._TTL_Logic.pdf

This is a college course?

Computer project, using 7404 as a clock:
https://www.cs.tcd.ie/Jeremy.Jones/3d2/3d2project.htm

Clearly, you didn't read this one.