Michael Coslo wrote on Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:00:40 EST:

I think it is pretty fair to say that the ARS will never be a
mainstream hobby or avocation. I really don't think that that is even a
good idea, after some thought.

You managed to get that sentence approved by the moderators?!? :-)

My path to the fold was in looking at ways to apply
amateur radio to my other hobby, Amateur astronomy. Funny though, the
Ham radio took over, and is now my main hobby, I never did apply it to
astronmomy.

Back in the 1960s, my lead man at Electro-Optical Systems was both
a technician class licensee and a very hands-on telescope maker.
He had ground his own 6" mirror for the telescope he was using and
was slowly grinding a 10" for a bigger scope. I came up with a
design and breadboarded a crystal-controlled time base for a
sideral drive for the ten-incher. Done with now-obsolete RTL
from Fairchild, it would be a snap to do it today with a single
Microchip IC plus a small stepper-motor or synchronous motor
driver circuit. Doug moved to Hawaii to work on the BIG
telescopes there so the ten-incher project (and its final
drive) were put on hold.

BTW, he had been into amateur radio first, then converted to doing
amateur astronomy. Folkses mileage differs. :-)

What attracted you, and can we get some ideas from that to attract or
identify and attract new blood?

Do we HAVE to 'attract new blood?' Serious question.

I've already told my personal story. It seems to rankle
some old-timers because it is non-standard to the 'common'
experience of USA radio amateurs...so I won't repeat it.
shrug After starting in the electronics industry 54
years back, doing high-power HF communications transmitting,
the elimination of the morse code test allowed me to get
a license (told that story, too, but it is also non-standard).
In talking to the applicants a year ago and several others
locally in the past year, their interest in getting a
license vary considerably. But, nearly all of them go the
Technician class route for local radio contacts, a sort of
social order thing possible in a large urban area. It was
like the CB radio craze and then the BBSs that preceded
the Internet era. Few of those got involved via the
supposed paradigm of 30 to 50 years back that lots of old-
timers repeat. In this newer world of the Internet and many,
many components available for lots of different electronics
things, plus ten kinds of consumer electronic products
(at relatively low cost) on the marketplace, the old
concept of 'having one's own personal radio station' is
diminishing rapidly.

As I see it, the old reasons-for-being of amateur radio
aren't applicable anymore. Technology in electronics has
long since leaped ahead of any state-of-the-art advances
done by amateurs long ago. What I see are two areas -

1. The just-plain-for-fun boosting, for whatever purpose in
communications, whether in a local urban area or a bit
farther out...and an emphasis on trying out things on a
personal-enjoyment level. We are NOT required to DO certain
things in the hobby just because some old-timers say we MUST
do those besides the regulations that all must obey.

2. De-emphasizing the 'necessity-to-be-a-part-of-the-
community-as-a-service.' Now, I know that amateur radio CAN
help in emergencies and all that 'service-to-community' PR
can persuade some lawmakers to this 'amateur cause' but it
seems to me to have gotten too big a share of the open
political statements in periodicals. Those who really care
about community service can just as easily go DIRECT to such
existing organizations. With a total licensee database
showing 720+ thousand licensees today, that should be large
enough to show lawmakers that amateur radio has a large
following.

I'm no expert on PR or marketing, don't have the explicit
solution to get more newcomers. As I observe the hobby, it
will last at least a couple of decades. That's good enough
for me. USA amateur radio stands or falls by what its
publicists say and try to convince new members...seldom by
what the old-timers claim. Times have changed (many times
over in my lifetime) and all must adapt to that, not to
hold onto ancient paradigms that no longer apply.

73, Len AF6AY

AF6AY wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote on Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:00:40 EST:

some snippage



What attracted you, and can we get some ideas from that to attract or
identify and attract new blood?

Do we HAVE to 'attract new blood?' Serious question.

We do need new people to replace those who leave for one reason or the
other. I want someone to talk to on the other end, and don't want the
Amateur radio community to become closed and eventually die out.


more snippage

As I see it, the old reasons-for-being of amateur radio
aren't applicable anymore. Technology in electronics has
long since leaped ahead of any state-of-the-art advances
done by amateurs long ago. What I see are two areas -

1. The just-plain-for-fun boosting, for whatever purpose in
communications, whether in a local urban area or a bit
farther out...and an emphasis on trying out things on a
personal-enjoyment level. We are NOT required to DO certain
things in the hobby just because some old-timers say we MUST
do those besides the regulations that all must obey.

I'm fortunate that I never had that experience. Of course, if someone
ever did tell me how I was supposed to use my time in the hobby, I think
I would politely decline, and go do what I wanted to do. 8^)


2. De-emphasizing the 'necessity-to-be-a-part-of-the-
community-as-a-service.' Now, I know that amateur radio CAN
help in emergencies and all that 'service-to-community' PR
can persuade some lawmakers to this 'amateur cause' but it
seems to me to have gotten too big a share of the open
political statements in periodicals.

Here we agree. While I am impressed with what Amateurs have done in
emergencies, the way that the public service genre of the hobby has
morphed is a little troublesome to me. I don't know if you were watching
the group a few weeks ago, but I related a story about an emergency comm
person speaking at a club meeting. When a member noted that the ARS
frequencies were there for use after the normal comms weren't working,
he replied " Every thing we do is a matter of life and death, so we can
use your frequencies any way we wish".

That was not only wrong, but scary that people that think in that manner
are coming into the hobby with such an attitude. He (and some like him)
come in to talk to the people who will be building and maintaining
repeaters and infrastructure, and lay one like that on them?


- 73 de Mike N3LI -

Michael Coslo wrote on Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:36:39 EST:

AF6AY wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote on Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:00:40 EST:

Do we HAVE to 'attract new blood?' Serious question.

We do need new people to replace those who leave for one reason or the
other. I want someone to talk to on the other end, and don't want the
Amateur radio community to become closed and eventually die out.

That seems a tad premature to me. At present there are 722K TOTAL
licensees and the expiration rate is roughly 27K/year. If that
keeps up without any newcomers, it would be 26.7 years before all
were gone. [of course there will be newcomers...but how many
depends on the attitude of the old-timers they come in contact with]

... We are NOT required to DO certain
things in the hobby just because some old-timers say we MUST
do those besides the regulations that all must obey.

I'm fortunate that I never had that experience. Of course, if someone
ever did tell me how I was supposed to use my time in the hobby, I think
I would politely decline, and go do what I wanted to do. 8^)

Well, from my experience (at work or at play) I've had some
who INSISTED on telling me what I 'should' be doing. Some
of those got rather antagonistic about it. "We don't DO that
kind of thing in fill-in-the-blank" kind of comment. It was
so prevalent among amateur radio licensees that I encountered
that it turned me off of bothering to get a license for a long
time. That's been my experience over the last half century and
I spent that time working IN the electronics industry.

I'll have to say that the above attitude was reflected in the
older amateur-radio-interest newsgroups and was partly due to
the creation of rec.radio.amateur.moderated.

... I don't know if you were watching
the group a few weeks ago, but I related a story about an emergency comm
person speaking at a club meeting.

I was 'reading the mail' but didn't bother with it much. :-)

When a member noted that the ARS
frequencies were there for use after the normal comms weren't working,
he replied " Every thing we do is a matter of life and death, so we can
use your frequencies any way we wish".

That was not only wrong, but scary that people that think in that manner
are coming into the hobby with such an attitude.

That person was more right than wrong. If one bothers to look,
the small-number Parts of Title 47 C.F.R. state clearly that
ANYONE can use ANY radio frequency to call for assistance if
a situation is really life or death...licensed or not. True.

Phil Kane could probably quote the Part and wording off the
top of his head but, not being an attorney, I would have to
search the Parts (all freely accessible). Besides, someone
in here would want to start a whole steamy argument thread on
that, arguing minutiae on the whichness of the what...:-)
Memory says it is the Part on commercial radio licenses but
undoubtedly someone in here will say 'I am wrong.' [sigh]

Radio amateur licensees are not bound JUST to what Part 97
says. The whole of Title 47 applies, even if 99+% has nothing
directly to do with the amateur radio service. But, with REAL
life-and-death situations, anyone can use any frequency at any
time with or without any license.

He (and some like him)
come in to talk to the people who will be building and maintaining
repeaters and infrastructure, and lay one like that on them?

Let's take that IN context. Consider that the attending radio
amateurs might ALSO have an 'attitude' going. Consider that
lots of government infrastructure radio facilities are kept
going 24/7 expressly FOR the purpose of life-and-death comms
needs. Amateur radio repeaters aren't. Amateur repeaters
are there primarily for the benefit of other amateurs.

I don't know about your local group, but I've seen (in real life
as well as in print) some groups that are simply too full of
themselves with self-righteousness. Such folks have a terrible
attitude and couldn't negotiate anything unless it was in their
favor. Anyone coming in contact with them would tend to reply
in-kind.

Now, in my area, I'm GLAD that the commercial, professional
radio services ARE there for anyone's benefit 24/7. LAPD and
LAFD are up and running as are the neighboring incorporated
cities of Burbank and Glendale (with nice cooperative ties
between all the government facilities). The Greater Los
Angeles Emergency Communications Center is staffed and ready
to go into action any time there is a REAL emergency and they
can tie into dozens of utility companies and other firms for
unusual emergency situations. It was put to the test on
17 Jan 94 with the Northridge earthquake and passed. Since
then it was improved via the LAFD Emergency Communications
Service which donated old, unused buildings and bought or
converted busses and radio equipment. I took my amateur
tests at an 'Old Firehouse' that is now part of that LAFD
sub-organization. Nice civic cooperation by the LAFD.

I experienced that Northridge earthquake first-hand and helped
a utility company restore services. All the electric power of
an area populated by 10 million or so were WITHOUT electric
power for half a day. Didn't see ANY sign of 'amateur radio
emergency' groups until two days AFTER the 17th. FEMA flew in
RF-plus-video terminals and put them in service the day after.
I'd like to say something positive about amateur radio since
I am a licensee in the radio service, but there wasn't much
evidence of it. I've been a commercial radio licensee for 52
years and can't forget that...I have to give credit where it is
due from REAL experiences, not some nebulous 'future plans' or
PR write-ups that appear only within amateur radio interest
groups.

73, Len AF6AY

AF6AY wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote on Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:36:39 EST:

When a member noted that the ARS
frequencies were there for use after the normal comms weren't working,
he replied " Every thing we do is a matter of life and death, so we can
use your frequencies any way we wish".

That was not only wrong, but scary that people that think in that manner
are coming into the hobby with such an attitude.


That person was more right than wrong. If one bothers to look,
the small-number Parts of Title 47 C.F.R. state clearly that
ANYONE can use ANY radio frequency to call for assistance if
a situation is really life or death...licensed or not. True.

Phil Kane could probably quote the Part and wording off the
top of his head but, not being an attorney, I would have to
search the Parts (all freely accessible). Besides, someone
in here would want to start a whole steamy argument thread on
that, arguing minutiae on the whichness of the what...:-)
Memory says it is the Part on commercial radio licenses but
undoubtedly someone in here will say 'I am wrong.' [sigh]


It is not as simple as that. What constitutes an emergency? If an
ambulance crew is transporting a 90 year old heart attack victim, it is
certainly a matter of life or death for that one patient. However, if
the ambulance breaks down, they can't commandeer your car. For a
government agency to seize private property (a category that includes
repeaters, transceivers, etc.) for their own use, they must have a
declaration of emergency, declaration of martial law, or, in individual
cases, a court order. The fire department employee who claimed that the
FD could take over an amateur radio club's repeaters anytime that they
wanted to do so was dead wrong.

--
Klystron

On Feb 29, 10:20 am, Klystron wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote on Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:36:39 EST:
When a member noted that the ARS
frequencies were there for use after the normal comms weren't working,
he replied " Every thing we do is a matter of life and death, so we can

use your frequencies any way we wish".

It is not as simple as that. What constitutes an emergency?

"Imminent danger of loss of life, serious injury, or damage/loss of
property". Or verbiage something like that.

If an
ambulance crew is transporting a 90 year old heart attack victim, it is
certainly a matter of life or death for that one patient.

Agreed. But what if they are transporting several people - say, a
young family that was in a serious auto accident? Or suppose they were
transporting desperately-needed medicines, blood, etc., during an
epidemic?

However, if
the ambulance breaks down, they can't commandeer your car. For a
government agency to seize private property (a category that includes
repeaters, transceivers, etc.) for their own use, they must have a
declaration of emergency, declaration of martial law, or, in individual
cases, a court order.

I'm not sure what the ultimate legality is, in a case like that or the
others I described. I suspect that government folks would not seize
private property for emergency use unless they were desperate, because
of the possible liability.

OTOH, would you want to have it on your conscience that a person or a
family died because you wouldn't let the ambulance folks use your car
when it was desperately needed?

The fire department employee who claimed that the
FD could take over an amateur radio club's repeaters anytime that they
wanted to do so was dead wrong.

I don't think the FD person wanted the repeaters. He said they could
use the frequencies, not the repeaters. And the frequencies are public
property, after all. An amateur or club might own the repeater but
they don't own the frequencies.

Further complicating the situation is the fact that many if not most
amateur radio repeaters aren't installed on the owner's property. For
example, one of the repeaters I use is on top of a local hospital,
where its antenna shares rooftop space with antennas for other radio
services. (It's an excellent location and gives very good coverage).
It's connected to the hospital's backup power system, too. The
repeater club pays a nominal fee for the electric power and rent.
Given that level of community support, don't the repeater owners have
some responsibility to the community?

Like the situation of the broken-down ambulance, would any radio
amateur want it on his/her conscience that a building burned down, and/
or people died, because s/he wouldn't let the emergency service people
use an amateur radio repeater in an emergency when it was desperately
needed?

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article ,
wrote:

I don't think the FD person wanted the repeaters. He said they could
use the frequencies, not the repeaters. And the frequencies are public
property, after all. An amateur or club might own the repeater but
they don't own the frequencies.

I think there's a significant difference between a one-time emergency
use (if regular comms go down), and regular use of the frequencies as
a substitute for a properly-licensed/managed public service radio
allocation.

As I understand it, this issue came up in a big way some decades
ago, after World War II. During the war, normal amateur-radio
communications were all shut down (for security reasons). The whole
RACES system was set up to allow specially-licensed stations (part of
civil-defense organizations) to use the ham-radio frequencies for
communication.

Some years after that (after ham-radio communications were allowed
again) some controversy arose over the use of the ham frequencies.
From what I've heard, there were some public-safety organizations in
small towns (police and fire) which started using the ham frequencies
regularly... they got ham licenses and set themselves up as RACES
stations and tried to justify their full-time tactical use of the ham
band under the "RACES training and drill" rules.

Hams complained. The FCC agreed with the complaints, deciding that
this was not an appropriate use of the ham frequencies, and instituted
new rules which strictly limit the frequency and duration of RACES
training drills that any given RACES organization can undertake
(basically, the equivalent of two long weekends per year). These
rules still exist today, and I imagine that many of us here had to
answer at least one question about this on one of our ham exams :-)

The Rules in 47 CFR 97.113 specifically forbid "Communications, on a
regular basis, which could reasonably be furnished alternatively
through other radio services" as well as communications for hire or in
which the operator has a pecuniary interest. I think that the first
of these prohibitions would probably be ruled to apply to a fire
department which (as a matter of course or regular practice) makes use
of the ham band or repeaters. The FCC would (I believe) certainly
rule that there are other bands and radio services which are
specifically intended for public-safety use, and that these are
reasonably available to fire departments and etc.

Real, short-term emergency use, when a regular fire-department or
other radio service fails for some reason, is a different matter...
but this isn't a "regular basis" of communications.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

On Feb 29, 4:08 pm, (Dave Platt) wrote:
In article .
com,

N2EY wrote:

I don't think the FD person wanted the repeaters. He said they could
use the frequencies, not the repeaters. And the frequencies are public
property, after all. An amateur or club might own the repeater but
they don't own the frequencies.

I think there's a significant difference between a one-time emergency
use (if regular comms go down), and regular use of the frequencies as
a substitute for a properly-licensed/managed public service radio
allocation.

Agreed. The discussion in question was about use of amateur
frequencies in an emergency situation only.

As I understand it, this issue came up in a big way some decades
ago, after World War II. During the war, normal amateur-radio
communications were all shut down (for security reasons). The whole
RACES system was set up to allow specially-licensed stations (part of
civil-defense organizations) to use the ham-radio frequencies for
communication.

During WW2, the system was called WERS (Wartime Emergency Radio
Service). WERS used the prewar
112 and 224 MHz bands (2-1/2 and 1-1/4 meters) for local
communications. Post-war, WERS evolved into RACES.

Some years after that (after ham-radio communications were allowed
again) some controversy arose over the use of the ham frequencies.
From what I've heard, there were some public-safety organizations in
small towns (police and fire) which started using the ham frequencies
regularly... they got ham licenses and set themselves up as RACES
stations and tried to justify their full-time tactical use of the ham
band under the "RACES training and drill" rules.

Sounds plausible. The difference in cost of amateur gear (which could
be converted surplus or even homebrew) vs. commercial land-mobile VHF
equipment was probably one reason for it.

Hams complained. The FCC agreed with the complaints, deciding that
this was not an appropriate use of the ham frequencies, and instituted
new rules which strictly limit the frequency and duration of RACES
training drills that any given RACES organization can undertake
(basically, the equivalent of two long weekends per year).

And the need for a declared emergency to activate RACES.

Good points!

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
On Feb 29, 10:20 am, Klystron wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote on Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:36:39 EST:
When a member noted that the ARS
frequencies were there for use after the normal comms weren't working,
he replied " Every thing we do is a matter of life and death, so we can
use your frequencies any way we wish".

It is not as simple as that. What constitutes an emergency?

"Imminent danger of loss of life, serious injury, or damage/loss of
property". Or verbiage something like that.

There are fringe elements in all aspects of life, including ham radio.
I've seen hams get much too caught up in the particular aspect of the
hobby that they enjoy, be it emergency communications, DX, contesting,
whatever.

Someone went to a club meeting and got carried away with what he was
saying about emergency communications. This has evolved into a
discussion about what constitutes an emergency, what hams can do during
this emergency, and the possible ramifications of all that. It has been
an interesting discussion, from which I have learned something.

But let's not assume that the statements of one individual represent the
guiding principles of an entire segment of ham radio. Yes, there is a
fringe element in the emergency communications interest group, but the
same is true for the contest interest group, the DX interest group, and
even the segment of the hobby who only wants to ragchew. You're not
going to find a mainstream emcomm guy who will say "everything we do is
a matter of life and death."

While this has been an interesting discussion, we need to realize that
it applies to a minuscule part of our operating. If there are a
thousand people reading this newsgroup, it's likely that not a single
one of you will ever be involved with a real life-or-death emergency.
If you are, Part 97 is likely to be the last thing on your mind, which
is exactly as it should be.

Still, an interesting discussion. I hope I never have to administer
CPR, but I still got the training.

73, Steve KB9X

wrote:
Klystron wrote:

If an
ambulance crew is transporting a 90 year old heart attack victim, it is
certainly a matter of life or death for that one patient.


Agreed. But what if they are transporting several people - say, a
young family that was in a serious auto accident? Or suppose they were
transporting desperately-needed medicines, blood, etc., during an
epidemic?


If you want to COMMANDEER something, re-read my previous post. It
doesn't matter if there are 99 people in the ambulance, they are all
having heart attacks and the ambulance is on fire.


However, if
the ambulance breaks down, they can't commandeer your car. For a
government agency to seize private property (a category that includes
repeaters, transceivers, etc.) for their own use, they must have a
declaration of emergency, declaration of martial law, or, in individual
cases, a court order.


I'm not sure what the ultimate legality is, in a case like that or the
others I described. I suspect that government folks would not seize
private property for emergency use unless they were desperate, because
of the possible liability.


Look for definitions of terms like "declaration of emergency,"
"martial law" or "disaster area." This is heavily traveled territory -
we don't need to reinvent the wheel, here in this newsgroup.


OTOH, would you want to have it on your conscience that a person or a
family died because you wouldn't let the ambulance folks use your car
when it was desperately needed?


See bottom paragraph.


The fire department employee who claimed that the
FD could take over an amateur radio club's repeaters anytime that they
wanted to do so was dead wrong.


I don't think the FD person wanted the repeaters. He said they could
use the frequencies, not the repeaters. And the frequencies are public
property, after all. An amateur or club might own the repeater but
they don't own the frequencies.

Further complicating the situation is the fact that many if not most
amateur radio repeaters aren't installed on the owner's property. For
example, one of the repeaters I use is on top of a local hospital,
where its antenna shares rooftop space with antennas for other radio
services. (It's an excellent location and gives very good coverage).
It's connected to the hospital's backup power system, too. The
repeater club pays a nominal fee for the electric power and rent.
Given that level of community support, don't the repeater owners have
some responsibility to the community?


If you put your shoes in a locker at the gym, are they still YOUR
shoes?


Like the situation of the broken-down ambulance, would any radio
amateur want it on his/her conscience that a building burned down, and/
or people died, because s/he wouldn't let the emergency service people
use an amateur radio repeater in an emergency when it was desperately
needed?


There is a bit of difference between a civic minded amateur radio
club voluntarily making its facilities available and a government
employee with an inflated sense of entitlement believing that he can
seize whatever he wants to seize whenever he want to seize it because
fires and sick people in ambulances are really, really important.

--
Klystron

On Feb 29, 9:14�pm, Klystron wrote:
wrote:
Klystron wrote:

But what if they are transporting several people - say, a
young family that was in a serious auto accident?
Or suppose they were
transporting desperately-needed medicines, blood, etc.,
during an
epidemic?

If you want to COMMANDEER something, re-read my previous
post. It
doesn't matter if there are 99 people in the ambulance, they are all
having heart attacks and the ambulance is on fire.

However, if
the ambulance breaks down, they can't commandeer your
car. For a
government agency to seize private property
(a category that includes
repeaters, transceivers, etc.) for their own use, they
must have a
declaration of emergency, declaration of martial law,
or, in individual
cases, a court order.

I'm not sure what the ultimate legality is, in a case like that or the
others I described. I suspect that government folks would not
seize
private property for emergency use unless they were
desperate, because
of the possible liability.

� �Look for definitions of terms like "declaration of emer
gency,"
"martial law" or "disaster area." This is heavily traveled territory -
we don't need to reinvent the wheel, here in this newsgroup.

The main point is that there has to be a clear and defined life-and-
death emergency.

But there's also the point of who can declare an emergency? Can the
EMTs say that the ambulance breakdown is an emergency?

OTOH, would you want to have it on your conscience
that a person or a
family died because you wouldn't let the ambulance
folks use your car
when it was desperately needed?

� �See bottom paragraph.

OK

I don't think the FD person wanted the repeaters.
He said they could
use the frequencies, not the repeaters. And the frequencies
are public
property, after all. An amateur or club might own the
repeater but
they don't own the frequencies.

This makes it a completely different situation from the commandeering
of private property.

Further complicating the situation is the fact that
many if not most
amateur radio repeaters aren't installed on the
owner's property.

� �If you put your shoes in a locker at the gym, are they
still YOUR
shoes?

Of course - but if someone needed them in a life-and-death
emergency....

There's also the question of contract provisions as part of the rental
agreement. Shoes in a locker are different from permanently installed
radio equipment requiring power and radiating RF.

Like the situation of the broken-down ambulance, would any
radio
amateur want it on his/her conscience that a building
burned down, and/
or people died, because s/he wouldn't let the
emergency service people
use an amateur radio repeater in an emergency
when it was desperately
needed?

� �There is a bit of difference between a civic minded ama
teur
radio
club voluntarily making its facilities available and a government
employee with an inflated sense of entitlement believing that
he can
seize whatever he wants to seize whenever he want to seize it
because
fires and sick people in ambulances are really, really important.

Of course - but what if the emergency really does meet K2ASP's double-
prong test? That is, it's a real life-and-death emergency, and there
are no other facilities available that can do the job?

As KB9X points out, the quoted person who said "everything we do is
life-and-death" was way out of line, and not representative at all.
But what about real-life situations that meet the two-prong test?
Granted they are very rare, and most of us will never encounter them,
but the time to think about them is before they happen.

73 de Jim, N2EY