On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 3:37:51 PM UTC-4, Bert wrote:


Using my non-functioning verticals, never more than 100 Watts, and a

very desultory operating style, I've managed to do WAS a few times over

and have 235 countries confirmed.


Once I was challenged by Roy Lewallen to do some quantative testing on ante
nnas during a discussion on the two types of antennas.

In my experiment, I made a switching arrangement between a Butternut HF6V v
ertical, ground mounted, with somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 buried ra
dials, and a 96 foot doublet at 50 feet.

Ahead of the switching arrangement was a pad, so that I could adjust the me
ter reading by switching attenuation in or out. Obviously I did not want
to transmit through the pad.

Most of my experiment consisted of listening to other hams, and switching b
ack and forth between the two antennas, then adjusting the signal strenght
until they were the same.

The results:

Some times the Vertical was best.
Some times the Horizontal dipole was best.
Some times which antenna perfomed best changed during the middle of a QSO.

Overall, the vertical was a little louder on recieve, and generally a littl
e weaker on transmit, although there were two things affecting this. And su
rprisingly enough, it wasn't always the take off angle. Some times it was I
MO signal polarity, but that's another experiment. The changes in signal st
rength that occured mid QSO were often noted by the people I was recieving
, and they usually attributed it to the band changing. I think it might hav
ebeen band changing and a shift in th epolarity of the recieved signal.

The other issue is that while it is common knowledge that a Vertical has a
lower take off angle and therefore "better" for DX, it must be remembered t
hat that lower take off angle needs to have more signal strength heading ou
t at that angle than an antenna with a more circular pattern has. And they
do not always.


So my conclusions about which is best between a vertical and dipole antenna
is a resounding and very convinced, Yes!

I believe that each has moments when it works better than the other, based
on Band, your QSO's distance from your station, and sometimes propagation e
ffects.

Most verticals need radials, and the radials must be installed properly 4 r
adials are not good practice. My 20 some radial setup was not ideal, but in
to diminishing returns. Since I installed them over time, I was able to not
ice that the signals were not getting any louder, a rough and ready test of
efficiency.

But verticals do work.

wrote

Most verticals need radials, and the radials must be installed properly 4
r
adials are not good practice. My 20 some radial setup was not ideal, but
in
to diminishing returns. Since I installed them over time, I was able to
not
ice that the signals were not getting any louder, a rough and ready test
of
efficiency.

But verticals do work.

Yes, they do, when properly installed and configured --- according to all I
have read. ;-) (I have never used a vertical on HF.) Wasn't it Jerry
Sevick who years ago experimented with raised vs. buried radials? My
recollection (not to be trusted) is that four *elevated* 1/4 wave radials
work well. But if you cannot elevate them and must lay them on the ground or
bury them, then you need... a lot of them. I forget if he used 96 or 120 of
them.... Of course there are diminishing returns, and Michael's 20-radial
arrangement should be plenty adequate - as he demonstrated. In any case, you
just have to get the near field to become highly conductive for a vertical
to perform as it should.

Howard N7SO

On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:09:26 EDT, "Howard Lester"
wrote:

My
recollection (not to be trusted) is that four *elevated* 1/4 wave radials
work well.

2-meter vertical antennas intended for use on the top of masts use
only 3 radials, and they work well. Four elevated radials also should
work.

Dick Grady, AC7EL

On Thursday, March 14, 2013 4:28:06 PM UTC-4, Dick Grady AC7EL wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:09:26 EDT, "Howard Lester"

wrote:


My recollection (not to be trusted) is that four *elevated* 1/4 wave radials
work well.

2-meter vertical antennas intended for use on the top of masts use
only 3 radials, and they work well. Four elevated radials also should
work.


Elevated tuned radials do work. If you are using a multiband vertical, it can make the yard look
a little funny though. My vertical is 6 bands, so I opted for buried radials, and given that the
antenna was not too far from a corner of the yard, they were really random in length. Some
over a hundred feet, some only around 20.

This probably meant that the antenna wasn't quite as efficient in a few directions as others.

Overall it worked pretty well.