"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

Dwight, I don't know how it is where you are, but
here there is no one willing to do the work a lot of
our immigrant population are willing to do--and do.


Nonsense, Kim. The reason most people aren't willing to do those jobs is
because the wages are so low. Offer decent wages and people will gladly do
those jobs. There are non-immigrant workers throughout this country busting
their butts in construction jobs, laborer jobs, crappy jobs, and dangerious
jobs. They do so because the wages are decent. My god, there are even people
willing to walk into a nuclear reactor if the pay is good enough. Offer
decent wages for almost ANY job and I'm fully convinced there will be plenty
of non-immigrant workers willing to do those jobs. I see nothing to even
suggest otherwise.


I remember many times asking my teen-aged son to go
get a job and, when he'd retort with, "there aren't any
jobs," I would mention some of the things I knew were
avaiable: farm work (building fences, etc.); any fast food
chain, stock clerk, etc. He was indignant, at best, when
he thought his mother would suggest such a thing to her
own son...that was not work he was about to go do.


Why should he work? He's living at home with mommy where everything is
free and he's spoiled rotten. When he is old enough, throw his butt out and
watch how fast his work ethic changes. In the meantime, sharply reduce the
money you give him (no car, no fancy school cloths, no expensive shoes, no
music CD's, no stereo, and so on) and tell him to get a job if he wants
those extras. After he throws a temper tantrum for a few months, wears out
of the stuff he has now, and realises you're serious, a job will look much
more appealing to him. He will have to do all this eventually anyway, so now
is a good time to start properly preparing him for his future. Later, once
he has to start paying for them, he'll miss the free food you gave him and
the free shelter you provided.


Now, I meet adults with the same attitude. I am very
thankful for that part of my community with people who
are willing to take on the immense task of the "physical
labor" jobs that many of us wouldn't be caught doing.
Very thankful indeed, for no one else would do them.


Like those other adults you mention, there are many jobs I will not do
today, Kim. I can't afford to do those low paying jobs if I want to feed my
family, live in a decent home, and make the car payments. And I'm certainly
not willing to live twenty to a hotel room or apartment like you see so many
poor illegal immigrants doing today. And, lets face it, I just can't
physically do some of those jobs anymore. But none of that suggests for a
moment that I'm not willing to work. Likewise, none of that suggests there
are no younger non-immigrants willing to do those jobs if the wages were
decent.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

Dwight, I don't know how it is where you are, but
here there is no one willing to do the work a lot of
our immigrant population are willing to do--and do.


Nonsense, Kim. The reason most people aren't willing to do those jobs is
because the wages are so low. Offer decent wages and people will gladly do
those jobs.


I don't know about you, but I sure don't want to be paying the price of your
philosophy noted above. Oh. And how dare you tell me "nonsense," Dwight.
I am relaying to you things from my own experience and you say to me,
"NONSENSE?" Do you know how much like Larry Roll you are sounding?


There are non-immigrant workers throughout this country busting
their butts in construction jobs, laborer jobs, crappy jobs, and
dangerious
jobs. They do so because the wages are decent. My god, there are even
people
willing to walk into a nuclear reactor if the pay is good enough. Offer
decent wages for almost ANY job and I'm fully convinced there will be
plenty
of non-immigrant workers willing to do those jobs. I see nothing to even
suggest otherwise.


And you'd better be ready to not be able to afford almost anything you buy
cheaply right now BECAUSE of things as they are.




I remember many times asking my teen-aged son to go
get a job and, when he'd retort with, "there aren't any
jobs," I would mention some of the things I knew were
avaiable: farm work (building fences, etc.); any fast food
chain, stock clerk, etc. He was indignant, at best, when
he thought his mother would suggest such a thing to her
own son...that was not work he was about to go do.


Why should he work? He's living at home with mommy where everything is
free and he's spoiled rotten.


Uh, I don't know what home you're talking about, but my kids were not
spoiled rotten. They got no car unless they bought it themselves. They did
NOT get any monetary support from me for any of their wants or needs in any
area except school and clothing. And, they were told they could either
spend my $200.00 on one outfit at Gadzooks for the whole schoolyear, or they
could go to Wal-Mart and get several pairs of Rustler Jeans and some shirts
and shoes.


When he is old enough, throw his butt out and
watch how fast his work ethic changes. In the meantime, sharply reduce the
money you give him (no car, no fancy school cloths, no expensive shoes, no
music CD's, no stereo, and so on) and tell him to get a job if he wants
those extras. After he throws a temper tantrum for a few months, wears out
of the stuff he has now, and realises you're serious, a job will look much
more appealing to him. He will have to do all this eventually anyway, so
now
is a good time to start properly preparing him for his future. Later, once
he has to start paying for them, he'll miss the free food you gave him and
the free shelter you provided.


Like I said. Don't know whose home you've been peering into, but it ain't
mine. My sons are long from teen-aged any more.


Now, I meet adults with the same attitude. I am very
thankful for that part of my community with people who
are willing to take on the immense task of the "physical
labor" jobs that many of us wouldn't be caught doing.
Very thankful indeed, for no one else would do them.


Like those other adults you mention, there are many jobs I will not do
today, Kim. I can't afford to do those low paying jobs if I want to feed
my
family, live in a decent home, and make the car payments. And I'm
certainly
not willing to live twenty to a hotel room or apartment like you see so
many
poor illegal immigrants doing today. And, lets face it, I just can't
physically do some of those jobs anymore. But none of that suggests for a
moment that I'm not willing to work. Likewise, none of that suggests there
are no younger non-immigrants willing to do those jobs if the wages were
decent.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/



Didn't say you aren't willing to work. And you're comments above about how
tough those jobs are for very little pay and how you wouldn't do them...just
highlights exactly what I was saying.

Kim W5TIT

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

I don't know about you, but I sure don't want to be
paying the price of your philosophy noted above.
Oh. And how dare you tell me "nonsense," Dwight.
I am relaying to you things from my own experience
and you say to me, "NONSENSE?"


The nonsense was directed at your conclusions, Kim. How can you possibly
say "no one" is willing to do the work? As I said, the main reason most
people aren't willing to (and actually cannot) do those jobs is because of
the wages are too low, not because they're not willing to work. People are
willing to work if the pay is decent.


And you'd better be ready to not be able to afford
almost anything you buy cheaply right now BECAUSE
of things as they are.


I've already given several ways wages can be increased without
significantly increasing the costs of consumer goods.


Uh, I don't know what home you're talking about, but
my kids were not spoiled rotten. (snip)


Your kid was used as a metaphor for all kids in general. That should have
been obvious since it is clear I don't know your specific kid.


Didn't say you aren't willing to work. (snip)


Actually, you did pretty much say that, Kim. About me and all other
non-immigrant Americans. Your exact words were "no one is willing to do the
work a lot of our immigrant population are willing to do." Of course, that
simply isn't true (not even close).


(snip) And you're comments above about how tough
those jobs are for very little pay and how you wouldn't
do them...just highlights exactly what I was saying.


I said nothing about how tough those jobs are. Those jobs are the venue of
younger people without the aches and pains of older age. I did those jobs
when I was younger, but have since moved on to more substantial work over
the years to the point of owning my own businesses today. However, there are
plenty of young people today more than willing to work. But, as I said,
they're not going to be thrilled about working in jobs with wages so low
they cannot feed their families and have to live twenty to a hotel room or
apartment to help keep living costs down (like so many poor illegal
immigrants do today). If this overall trend continues, Americans in the not
so distant future, perhaps your grandchildren, are going to be living just
like people do in third-world countries. That's the real future we're
leaving future generations.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

In article .net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:

"Kim" wrote:

I don't know about you, but I sure don't want to be
paying the price of your philosophy noted above.
Oh. And how dare you tell me "nonsense," Dwight.
I am relaying to you things from my own experience
and you say to me, "NONSENSE?"


The nonsense was directed at your conclusions, Kim. How can you possibly
say "no one" is willing to do the work?

Dwight,

I think that when Kim writes "no one" in a context like that, she really means
"almost no one" or "hardly anyone" rather than the literal standard meaning
"not a single person" or "nobody at all".

Of course there's the economic concept, derived from supply-and-demand, that if
you have something nobody seems to want, you have to make it more attractive.
With a product, that can me a lower price; with a job, that can mean higher
wages/better benefits.

Just MHO

73 de Jim, N2EY

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article .net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:


"Kim" wrote:

I don't know about you, but I sure don't want to be
paying the price of your philosophy noted above.
Oh. And how dare you tell me "nonsense," Dwight.
I am relaying to you things from my own experience
and you say to me, "NONSENSE?"


The nonsense was directed at your conclusions, Kim. How can you possibly
say "no one" is willing to do the work?


Dwight,

I think that when Kim writes "no one" in a context like that, she really means
"almost no one" or "hardly anyone" rather than the literal standard meaning
"not a single person" or "nobody at all".

Of course there's the economic concept, derived from supply-and-demand, that if
you have something nobody seems to want, you have to make it more attractive.
With a product, that can me a lower price; with a job, that can mean higher
wages/better benefits.

Sure! Corning Glass which recently closed in my town, had this
situation. The "hot" end of the building had work which was hot and
fairly dangerous, as working with molten glass is going to be. To entice
workers there, they were paid quite well. Simple supply and demand.

They are history now, and won't come back, as they can't compete with
the foreign sources. The foreign sources are so heavily subsidized by
their respective governments that it is just about impossible to compete.

I wonder what we'll do when the last manufacturing jobs are gone from
the US? Run up a white flag? (made in some other country, of course!)

- Mike KB3EIA -

"N2EY" wrote:

I think that when Kim writes "no one" in a context like
that, she really means "almost no one" or "hardly anyone"
rather than the literal standard meaning "not a single
person" or "nobody at all".


I know what she means, but it's not what she wrote, Jim. And if we can't
get past the absoluteness of that "no one," there is little way to continue
the discussion. If we're instead talking about "almost no one" or "hardly
anyone," then the obvious question becomes why bring in immigrants to take
even those few people's jobs or drive down their wages. Of course, I don't
really expect Kim to answer those questions. Few seem to care about the
Americans who are losing their jobs, or are seeing their wages reduced, as a
result of immigration and other government policies. They have their
pro-immigration blinders on and refuse to see the obvious fallout of these
government policies.

I look around and see many in my hometown (a small town) unemployed or
working in low paying jobs while every factory in the area closes and
immigrants move in to take jobs. A friend, who has been doing lawn care for
almost three decades, recently lost a long-standing contract to another
out-of-state company using all immigrant employees. As a result, he filed
for bankruptcy and had to fire his entire workforce - Americans who were
willing to work.

I'm feeling the pressure right now. One of my companies (wetland
maintenance) is facing competition from a company with almost all illegal
immigrant employees. I just barely held onto a county contract last time,
but profits are now dismal. To hold onto that contract next time, either I
cut my employee's wages sharply or I replace them with illegal immigrants.
The only other option is to not even bid at all, which means the other
company (with it's illegal immigrants) is assured the contract (and I let
employees go).

The economy of this country is quickly heading to hell in a handbasket and
few seem to even notice or care.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"N2EY" wrote:

I think that when Kim writes "no one" in a context like
that, she really means "almost no one" or "hardly anyone"
rather than the literal standard meaning "not a single
person" or "nobody at all".


I know what she means, but it's not what she wrote, Jim. And if we can't
get past the absoluteness of that "no one," there is little way to
continue
the discussion. If we're instead talking about "almost no one" or "hardly
anyone," then the obvious question becomes why bring in immigrants to take
even those few people's jobs or drive down their wages.


And, if you want to argue symantecs, Dwight, then you have a roadblock that
won't allow for reasonable discussion of the topic. I am telling you that
my experience has been that people who are customarily born in this country
feel that the jobs we are speaking of are beneath them. Period. Now, the
only areas of this country that I have lived in with enough time to gather
that opinion is in NE NY and down here in the DFW area. If your experience
is different--sobeit. But, how dare you dismiss the experiences I have
seen.

Not only am I basing the opinion I have off true experience and
observations, I am also an above-average (or was) politically active person.
When topics like this come up on radio talk-shows, television news magazine
shows, and in Congress--which I used to spend hours and hours every day
watching--the discussion is that "immigration" is killing jobs in this
country vs. that the jobs in this country immigration fills are those that
will not customarily be done by people born here.

I wish I could say to you, "prove to me that there are people born here who
will ______" and you fill in the blank. But that is both unrealistic and
not constructive. So, the only mechanism I have by which to comment on the
topic *is* from my experience. I even added enough honesty into the
discussion to say that, neither now or when I *was* young enough to do it,
would *I* do those jobs. And, as Jim/N2EY pointed out, *immigrant* farming
is a whole other ballgame than just farming. Immigrant farming involves
migrant lifestyles that few of us are even familiar with--let alone willing
to do.



Of course, I don't
really expect Kim to answer those questions. Few seem to care about the
Americans who are losing their jobs, or are seeing their wages reduced, as
a
result of immigration and other government policies. They have their
pro-immigration blinders on and refuse to see the obvious fallout of these
government policies.


And, how dare you again, Dwight. You are being as overhanded with your
remarks about my character, related to this conversation as anyone like
Larry Roll would be--so don't even bother calling him on the carpet for his
behavior!! How dare you imply that I "don't care" about bad policies in
this country. Have I once said I don't care? Furthermore, the obvious
fallout that you believe is not what I see--and I've just told you I am
basing that on experience. Go to the Unemployment lines. I haven't--but I
*BET* the majority of people in those lines are not looking for work on
farms, at Wal-Mart, with municipalities, landscape companies, construction
firms, asbestos abatement firms, chemical and biological hazard waste firms,
and our ever-famous convenience stores such as 7-Eleven--all of which need
people constantly. I reiterate *CONSTANTLY* because there is no one who
will "take" those jobs--*EXCEPT* people who recognize them as a job to take
when one is desperate. (An aside--if you want to break off into symantecs
and argue about defining "no one," go debate with yourself, Dwight).

Those jobs, and so many more that I could think of, are *generally* not
taken by people who have been born in this country. There are some who
do--and they are in what used to be the ethnic miniorities. All one need do
is look around them to see where our youth find important and meaningful
employment: McDonald's and other fast food joints, light dining restaraunts,
and that's about it. Why did I break-out to light dining restaraunts?
Because I don't see teen-agers in the "finer" dining restaraunts--and my
husband and I love to eat out so we have some experience. Know why *I*
think they (teen-agers) aren't there? Because there, the customer service
is higher scale, which demands more personality, better etiquette, and of
course--greater work ethic. Guess who we do see serving us in those
restaraunts?

My husband has been at his formerly family-owned business for 27 years. His
mom sold the company last year. For most of those 27 years, until about 10
years ago, they had a great crew of folks. Since then, the main focus of my
husband's every day work has been to get someone in there who wants a job
and will work. Know how many nieces nephews, and his own kids and my son,
he has had through those years? Ten. Not one of them has ever, ever worked
there. Know how many great nieces and nephews he has had who, of course,
have been old enough to work through those years? They are just now getting
in to their early-mid teens. A quick count of those that could work there
is somewhere around seven. Not one has ever done it. Oh, I take that back.
My husband's daugher worked there--for literally four days.

For goodness sake, here's a great example: I am privvy to a situation where
I know a kid of coworker's who had "no prospect" (yeah, right) of a job
after completing a 2-year program with one of these "tech" type training
institutions. So, she's back living with mummy and daddy and pining and
sighing every day. I have a co-worker who is from India. He's brought his
wife over here and she'd been here for about, oh, three months before they
both learned of the medical transcritption service industry that's been
popping up over the past few years. He has a problem with his wife going
out in the workforce, but she wanted to work to contribute to the recovery
of costs it took to get her here, etc. She went to a 6-week (I think it
was) school to learn medical transcription, blah, blah, blah, she now has
her own home-business with her family doctor as her first customer and
she'll get more, I'm sure. We were all talking about this at work. He
mentions this to this coworker whose kid has no prospect for a job. Know
what the kid's response was? I think you do.

So, it isn't only you who has your own company, Dwight, whose livelihood is
at stake with things such as they are. I'll come full circle with my
indignation again: how dare you imply that I don't care.


I look around and see many in my hometown (a small town) unemployed or
working in low paying jobs while every factory in the area closes and
immigrants move in to take jobs.


If the factories are closing, then what jobs are the immigrants moving in to
take? And, have you any friends or casual acquaintances that you can ask if
they have tried to get those jobs? I am still curious to know if factories
are closing, what jobs are available for anyone to take? I take your
comment above to be pretty dismal. I've been in dismal (the NE when the oil
crisis happened--talk about getting dismal) and I had to move down here to
make it.


A friend, who has been doing lawn care for
almost three decades, recently lost a long-standing contract to another
out-of-state company using all immigrant employees. As a result, he filed
for bankruptcy and had to fire his entire workforce - Americans who were
willing to work.


Well, excuse me for the honesty--you'll call it having my blinders on or not
caring, maybe even because I am a "liberal"--but, if one contract put this
company out of business, then perhaps the person should have gone on to some
form of vocational or higher level training in business practices before
they took such a jump. I've had my own company too, years ago. And, if I'd
had just one "large" job/contract, I would have been in a constant state of
panic. And, as an aside, if this person's seeing other companies get the
contracts...then go get a job with those companies as a Salesperson, or
whatever. Maybe he/she *won't* make the money he's accustomed to--but we
gotta do whatever it takes to make adjustments to the things we have no
control over. And, if we have no control over the employment situation in
this country--we don't whine about it. We knuckle under, get the menial
jobs, sell the big house, get the little house, sell the SUV and get the
Saturn, and we begin the task of seeing what we can do--if anything--to
change the route of what we perceive as being awful.


I'm feeling the pressure right now. One of my companies (wetland
maintenance) is facing competition from a company with almost all illegal
immigrant employees.


Then, report the company to INS. REPORT THEM. If the company is getting
contracts based on their employment of illegeal aliens, then I am sure the
firms they are doing services for will want to know this. For goodness
sake, REPORT their ass.


I just barely held onto a county contract last time,
but profits are now dismal. To hold onto that contract next time, either I
cut my employee's wages sharply or I replace them with illegal immigrants.


Don't you dare buy in to the illegal and unethical side of this. To join is
not to change or conquer.


The only other option is to not even bid at all, which means the other
company (with it's illegal immigrants) is assured the contract (and I let
employees go).


And, if it illegal immigration that is nulling you out, you use the laws and
shouting as loud as you can shout to fight it.


The economy of this country is quickly heading to hell in a handbasket
and
few seem to even notice or care.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/



I don't know who's not noticing or caring. I see a lot of doing nothing to
get involved against it, or to even lift a finger of their own to change it.

Kim W5TIT