"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
link.net...

"Len Over 21" wrote:

(snip) All of the information is from
ARRL's own website under QST
Circulation. There are some apparent
discrepancies on that, probably due to
"creative rearrangement" of the data.
For example, the "average monthly paid
circulaion" (six months, ending at end
of June) was only 142,992. Between
that and the indicated membership is
12,140 unaccounted for and not
explained by sales to library/institution
subscriptions (only 891) or net single
copy sales (only 1,784). (snip)


While I obviously cannot be certain, most of those 12,140 issues are
probably free handouts, Len - sent to current advertisers, potential
advertisers, staff, those who wrote articles or sent pictures for each
issue, executives of various companies, industry insiders, news
organizations, politicians, and so on. It's a fairly common practice in
the
publishing industry.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/


Also keep in mind that there are members who will not show up under the paid
circulation number. In my home, both I and the OM are members. We only get
one magazine as he is a family member under my main membership. So there is
only one paid circulation but two ARRL members.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/22/03 3:27 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/20/03 9:09 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
ubject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 12/20/03 2:50 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


So, give us an EXACT number of ARRL members.

Check their annual postal statement. It's a violation for them to
purjure
that, and it delineates the number of "paid subscriptions" (ie: paid-up
members)

Steve, K4YZ


I was a member of the ARRL prior to earning my Novice ticket.

What was my call sign then?

I am sure there was a point ot your asking this question, Brain, even
though it was not part-and-parcel of the quoted item above.

Regardless of your licensure status when you joined the ARRL, the only
'relevence' would have been your voting staus. You were STILL a member.

Now...the point?

Steve, K4YZ

Let me think it through for you.

No need to, Brain...but I'll let you flail through this since it amuses
you.

A non-member, me, receives QST. I am included in the annual postal
statement.

As an individual you ARE a member. If you are not licensed, you are a
NON-VOTING member.

Every library is included in the postal statement.

Identified in the statement. Subtract from the total.

Every club that subscribes is included in the postal statement.

How can a "club subscribe", Brain? An individual (the trustee) dos that.

Every foreign subscriber non-member is included in the postal
statement.

Every foreign "subscriber" is an individual, and is therefore a "member".

Now would you mind answereing the question: "So, give us an EXACT
number of ARRL members."

Total magazines printed

minus wasted copies

minus library subscriptions

minus complimentary copies

equals "EXACT" number of ARRL members

(Guess that new math really confounded ya, Huh BRAIN?

What an idiot.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Why You Don't Like Ham's Who Can't Accept Change.
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/23/03 6:01 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

"But, but, but....

I snipped the rant. Caps and all.

Welp, Len, see where knowledge and facts will get ya?

Neither you nor Lennie have expressed ANYthing here that resembles
"knowldege" or "facts", Brain. Lennie's manipulating of ARRL membership
numbers is interesting, but just as much "theory" as his "Extra Lite" excuses.

Try again, Brain...It's almost Christmas and I am sure you'd like to have
that warm, fuzzy feeling again before then.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: "Dee D. Flint"
Date: 12/23/03 8:41 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: om


Also keep in mind that there are members who will not show up under the paid
circulation number. In my home, both I and the OM are members. We only get
one magazine as he is a family member under my main membership. So there is
only one paid circulation but two ARRL members.

Good point, Dee...I forgot that, and my XYL and I have the same
arrangement.

73

Steve, K4YZ

"Steve Robeson K4CAP" wrote in message
news:20031223110945.14309.00001469@mb- Total magazines printed

minus wasted copies

minus library subscriptions

minus complimentary copies

equals "EXACT" number of ARRL members

(Guess that new math really confounded ya, Huh BRAIN?

What an idiot.

Steve, K4YZ


You forgot to add in members who don't receive their own magazine, such as
those on the family membership.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee D. Flint wrote:
"Steve Robeson K4CAP" wrote in message
news:20031223110945.14309.00001469@mb- Total magazines printed

minus wasted copies

minus library subscriptions

minus complimentary copies

equals "EXACT" number of ARRL members

(Guess that new math really confounded ya, Huh BRAIN?

What an idiot.

Steve, K4YZ



You forgot to add in members who don't receive their own magazine, such as
those on the family membership.

Might as well add the memberships for blind hams that don't want to get
QST.

- Mike KB3EIA -

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:41:24 GMT, Dee D. Flint wrote:

Also keep in mind that there are members who will not show up under the paid
circulation number. In my home, both I and the OM are members. We only get
one magazine as he is a family member under my main membership. So there is
only one paid circulation but two ARRL members.

I would suspect that in this computers-r-us era of acccounting, the
Membership Department can furnish the exact number of members-in-good-
standing (i.e. paid up to date) in every category as of the last
database entry.

After all, the ARRL -is- a membership organization and any member is
entitled to that information. Getting it may be another story,
however.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

In article .net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:

"Len Over 21" wrote:

(snip) All of the information is from
ARRL's own website under QST
Circulation. There are some apparent
discrepancies on that, probably due to
"creative rearrangement" of the data.
For example, the "average monthly paid
circulaion" (six months, ending at end
of June) was only 142,992. Between
that and the indicated membership is
12,140 unaccounted for and not
explained by sales to library/institution
subscriptions (only 891) or net single
copy sales (only 1,784). (snip)

While I obviously cannot be certain, most of those 12,140 issues are
probably free handouts, Len - sent to current advertisers, potential
advertisers, staff, those who wrote articles or sent pictures for each
issue, executives of various companies, industry insiders, news
organizations, politicians, and so on. It's a fairly common practice in the
publishing industry.

Dwight, with all due respect, I think I know a bit about the
periodicals industry and Publisher's Sworn Statements. :-)

The seed of this particular sub-thread was the EXACT number of
ARRL membership. According to Katherine A. Capodicasa,
Circulation Manager of QST, given on ARRL's own web page,
the ARRL membership as of the end of June 2003 was 155,132.

Also, on the same ARRL page was the statement of the "average
monthly paid circulation" (for previous 6 months). That is 142,992.
It is also a difference of 12,140 from the June membership number.
That difference MIGHT account for the "family membership" single
copies and other things. Might, that is, trying to infer anything
from insufficient data is pure speculation such as others have been
doing.

In item 3 on the Circulation page is "average unpaid and sample
copy circulation per month" of 1,140. That would be freebies,
sample copies, stuff sent to potential advertisers, and so forth.
[others have tried to imply higher numbers for this as rationalizing
other differences but that is more speculation without facts and
also - obviously - not going to the "official" ARRL pages...:-) ]

Now, connecting the dots to other notable numbers, one who
longs for the olden days keeps putting up others' database values
to show that U.S. amateur radio licenses are increasing. [they
are, but only slightly and don't follow the overall population increase]
Yet, on the Circulation page of QST, ARRL membership shows a
slight but definite DECREASE in paid circulation...from 143,904 at
end of January 2003 to 142,311 at end of June 2003, a difference
of -1,593.

Connecting more dots farther apart, clicking on ARRL publications
and QST yields a table of contents of January 2004 issue. On
there is a link to a "Micro Keyer" (CW keyer) which is viewable,
but no other viewable link to more general amateur radio articles
such as making nice front panels for homebuilt equipment. This is
just another subtle bit of business on ARRL's continuing push for
morse code related over and above all other modes. ARRL may
take a "neutral" stance on morse code testing regulations but one
can only take away their code key from their cold, dead fingers...

In truth, a "Publishers Sworn Statement" is SOLELY for the
benefit of potential ADVERTISERS. QST subsists almost entirely
on the income of advertising to pay for printing, author compensation
(miniscule by comparison to other periodicals), "fulfillment"
(publishing-speak for subscriptions), and QST direct staff. Note that
QST has used a heavier-weight glossy paper than most periodicals
(which costs more) but has gone to slightly lower-weight glossy paper.
Anyone can go through any issue, count column-inches, and
determine the issue's Real income within 20% or so just from QST's
rates (also on the web site, different page).

Advertising pays the bills at a periodical. Advertising revenue is
finite so all periodical publishers will condense and "tailor" the
Publisher's Sworn Statements as much as they can...so that
potential advertisers are convinced to pay them instead of any
competition. Since advertising budgets are finite, some periodicals
just don't get as much income...and some may have to quit when
there isn't enough income to pay bills.

There's bound to be someone who shows "exceptions" to the rule
that advertising pays the bills. I'm familiar with that. As one who
gets a number of trade periodicals (EDN, Electronic Design, RF
Design, Microwaves & RF, PET, etc.) entirely without any monies
from me ("controlled circulation" magazines), that's proof enough of
my statement. There are MORE "free" trade publications in the
USA than there are subscription-fee publications.

Parishoners at the Church of St. Hiram have been busy rationalizing
and speculating on the "reason" for differences that I noted. :-)
They are all wrong, but are convinced they Know...ARRL can do no
wrong.

All that can be gleaned from the QST Circulation page is the number
(and EXACT number) of ARRL membership at any one time.

ARRL is basically three organizations in one: A membership club;
a political-action special interest group; a publishing business.
Members try to rationalize others' negative criticsm by using only one
or two of the triad as "justification." In truth, ARRL tries to be too
many things under one roof and that, if too inflexible, may be its
eventual undoing.

Merry Christmas to you and yours, Dwight.

Len Anderson

In article ,
(Brian) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Brian) writes:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/20/03 9:09 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
ubject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 12/20/03 2:50 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


So, give us an EXACT number of ARRL members.

Check their annual postal statement. It's a violation for them
to
purjure
that, and it delineates the number of "paid subscriptions" (ie:
paid-up
members)

Steve, K4YZ


I was a member of the ARRL prior to earning my Novice ticket.

What was my call sign then?

I am sure there was a point ot your asking this question, Brain,
even
though it was not part-and-parcel of the quoted item above.

Regardless of your licensure status when you joined the ARRL, the
only
'relevence' would have been your voting staus. You were STILL a member.

Now...the point?

Steve, K4YZ

Let me think it through for you.

A non-member, me, receives QST. I am included in the annual postal
statement.

Every library is included in the postal statement.

Every club that subscribes is included in the postal statement.

Every foreign subscriber non-member is included in the postal
statement.

Now would you mind answereing the question: "So, give us an EXACT
number of ARRL members."

He cannot, so, as his "representative" in here, I will. :-)

According to the ARRL's own information, their last Publisher's
Sworn Circulation Statement was end of June, 2003.

At that time ARRL membership was 155,132.

Of those, 19,180 were Life Members.

All of the information is from ARRL's own website under QST
Circulation. There are some apparent discrepancies on that,
probably due to "creative rearrangement" of the data. For example,
the "average monthly paid circulaion" (six months, ending at end
of June) was only 142,992. Between that and the indicated
membership is 12,140 unaccounted for and not explained by any
sales to library/institution subscriptions (only 891) or net single
copy sales (only 1,784).

In the "average monthly paid circulation by type," the number of
issues to associations and members (including Life Members) was
140,317 and, with libraries and single copy sales, adds up to
142,311. That's off of Cathy's statement of 142,992 by 681. ?

If there were 682 thousand total U.S. amateur radio licensees at
the end of June, 2003, then ARRL membership is only 22.79%
and LESS than a quarter.

LHA

"But, but, but....

YOU DON'T HAVE A LICENSE! YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO READ THOSE FIGURES
ON THE ARRL WEB SITE. YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO MATH AND CREATE A
RATIO OF MEMBEERS TO NON-MEMBERS. YOUR RESEARCH DOESN'T COUNT. YOU
CAN'T HAVE AN OPINION.

...blah, blah, blah."

Welp, Len, see where knowledge and facts will get ya?

Merry Christmas.

I know. Isn't it awful? :-)

It's so comforting to know that one can read and repeat Cathy's
Circulation page on ARRL's website as a "LIE!" :-)

There are other little gems from da Wundermarine in here, such
as its impossible for a First Phone to be used in U.S. civil
aviation band radio communications since a Restricted 3rd
Class "must" be used...which was nonsense in 1962...and
later when the Commercial licenses got converted to the
General Radiotelephone. He could not give exact figures on
QST circulation for any issue (despite being only a few key-
presses away from the main web page) but he "Knows" the
exact costs in certain years for student flying lessons. The
circulation for QST is very much amateur radio related but the
student pilot costs are not. [he might have been hit by a
couple of close isobars once and had an adiabatic lapse
rate decrease...:-) ]

Stebe thinks that the "majority" of U.S. amateur radio activity
is above HF. That must mean that he never listens below 30
MHz. Probably true since all he can do is transmit over-
modulated shouting and hollering about close-order drill below
30 MHz. Hup too tree foah, ya lie, ya lie, ya lie! :-)

The ONLY way one can be "interested in radio" is to get a ham
license and be proficient in morse code...with extra gold stars
if one was once a member of da murine corpse. Doesn't hurt if
one was a purchasing agent for a small modem and set-top box
company in the "south" for a few months...that counts as "being
in radio engineering!" :-)

Amateur radio FUN is only "ancilliary" to the U.S. amateur radio
SERVICE. Ham radio is all about wearing a Lifestyle mental
uniform, marching in ranks to the morse drumbeat of the 1930s,
and being ready, willing, able to "take over communications" when
all the commercial/professional infrastructure FAILS in an
emergency? That's the thoughts I see expressed in here.

There can be no fun in the ham SERVICE. It is all about duty,
dedication, close-order drill on the proper and correct jargon and
prosigns. [why the name "prosigns" when there is so much
hatred of the pros?] Hupp, too, tree, foah! Beep, beep, beep!

It's a wonderful life. [but all the cast players are mentally SK]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, Brian, all the best to you
and your family.

Len Anderson

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Bill Sohl wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message

snippage

Two questions...
1. What "other members" (I presume you mean Board Members), other
than W5YI, do NOT support retention of technical acumen?

They don't have to be Board members, Bill. And I don't have their names
off the top of my head.

If you like, I can retract the "members" statement, and substitute
"member" or "prominent member". Although I think that's almost like
saying a person's argument is invalid because they made a typo.

Bottom line, without names, the statement is grossly misleading
as you apear to try and broaden your claim to NCI in general...
which is absolutely false.

Bottom line, I have never accused NCI of having any particular
opinion.

I wrote:

Instead, some members express "unofficial opinions that scare the
bejabbers out of me.

That's the point. "Unofficial opinions". That alone, regardless
of what you say, creates an impression that there is an "unofficial
'NCI' opinion". If a person has their own opinion about
something, that isn't "official" or "unofficial" by itself. Adding the
"unofficial opinion" label in talking about an NCI
member DOES create a different perception than simply
saying John Doe has an opinion that scares me.

Back to now:

Who is broadening any claim? I even put unofficial opinions on my
sentence.

Your trying to pin me down on this is amusing, since the membership
rolls of NCI are a closely guarded secret. The only way we know is if
the member outs him or her self.

Then how can you even make the statement that some "members" have
opinions that scare you IF you can't even identify them.

I don't like Han's entry level license requirement either. He's a member.

BUT, his NCI membership doesn't tie NCI to Han's personal support
for an entry level license.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK