Len Over 21 wrote:

This newsgroup is all about lets-pretend fish-story-tellers trying
to put down lots of other amateurs. All amateurishly.

You seem confused again, old timer. While you tell your fish stories
and put down radio amateurs, you aren't in fact a radio amateur.

I'm all for eliminating the morse code test from any radio license
examination. That's all.

"Go for it, EX purchasing agent..."

"Of course you did...right after you accepted the Presidential Medal
of Freedom for keeping Homeland Security safe through ham radio."

"Yeah, like a little few-page weekly is on par with the New York
TIMES."

"MODERN HF amateur radio: 'What was good in the 1930s is still
good in 2000s!'"

"Real ham radio is working DX on HF with CW."

"Quit trying to be a Host, sweetums. The only "host" you can be is
of a communicable disease."

"Go get some therapy."

Yep, it appears quite evident from the quoted material just from one of
your posts, Len. You just want to eliminate a code test.

Dave K8MN

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Dee D. Flint" wrote:
"Dwight Stewart" wrote:
To do the types of public service
we're authorized to do (MARS,
RACES, and so on), authorization
is required.

Sec. 97.407 (snip)


That is an authorization to operate
on those frequencies and an
authorization to operate the station
not an authorization to do public
service. (snip)


"That is authorization to operate on those frequencies" to do what, Dee?
The only answer is "public service" in this context. When it comes to
Amateur Radio, we perform our public service using the Amateur Radio
frequencies. And the FCC is the governing agency that says what is
authorized on those frequencies (not everything is - your license is not a
blank check to do what you want with the Amateur frequencies). For
example,
when it comes to the walk-a-thon you mentioned, the FCC has set rules on
what is and isn't authorized in that situation. The same with your power
blackout situation. And the same with ARES. In other words, you are only
allowed to use your radio in situations authorized, and in the manner
authorized. One situation authorized is public service.


(snip) That does not change the fact
that there is no mandate to do so.


Again, the words mandate and authorization are synonymous.


There is no authorization from the FCC required to do public service. We
have never needed government authorization to do public service. That the
FCC has simply formally recognized the value of amateur's public service
efforts does not constitute authorization to do public service. I've read
Part 97 beginning to end. All it authorizes is the use of specific
frequencies for specific license classes. It mandates meeting safety and
signal requirements and operational limits. The only words relating to
public service are simply those recognizing the fact of our value in public
service and encouraging us to continue.

You have just demonstrated how little you know about ARES and RACES.

RACES isn't allowed to function (except for limited practice sessions)
unless specifically activated and called to action by the government. The
FCC isn't even granting any more RACES station authorizations. They really
are not a public service group but instead are a volunteer civilian
auxiliary to the government. Thus RACES cannot do anything other than
follow the specific orders of the government when specifically activated.
They cannot do walk-a-thons or any other volunteer work or public service
work.

On the other hand, ARES is totally independent of the government and is
strictly an organization set up by and run by hams. The hams themselves
decide if, when and where they will do public service. ARES is not even
mentioned in the FCC rules. They can do any public service they want to so
long as they do not violate the FCC rules. The FCC has nothing whatsoever
to do with ARES.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
k.net...

Of course, those quotes don't reflect anything said by me. Instead, I
said
public service is a key component of the basis and purpose of this radio
service (97.1a).



I repeat the words in 97.1a amount only to a recognition of the fact that we
do public service and encouragement to us to continue. It is not an
authorization to do public service. We need no authorization whatsoever to
do public service. Amateur radio operators have always participated in
public service and have done so since before those words were incorporated
into the FCC rules. There is NO mandate. There is NO authorization.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
nk.net...
"KØHB" wrote:

"Dwight Stewart" wrote

Again, the words mandate and authorization
are synonymous.


Not in any dictionary I can find, nor in Roget's.


Princeton University's WordNet...

http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/~wn/

Click on "Use WordNet Online" and enter "mandate." Notice the word
"authorization" right next to it for the first definition. Notice the word
"mandatory" next to it for the second definition. Mandate and
authorization
are synonymous in the context used.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)


But that is not the context in which you used it. There is nothing in Part
97 authorizing us to do public service. Public service is briefly mentioned
but only in recognition and encouragement. Paragraph 97.1a does not
authorize any one to do a thing.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Hans K0HB" wrote:

Dwight, do you read and understand
what you write prior to mashing the
send button?

If there is nothing mandat(ory) about
something, how can it be a mandate?


Mandatory is only one definition, or contextual sense, of the word
"mandate," Hans. There are others.


An authorization is a grant of
permission, but does not
*require* an action.


A mandate does not always "require" action. For example, a people can
give
a mandate to their elected leaders, but those leaders are not required to
follow it. For example, the people can give a president a mandate to raise
taxes to finance schools, but he can finance those schools some other way.
In that sense, the people have their president an authorization to act,
not
a requirement he must follow.



So quote the exact words from Part 97 that give us an authorization to do
public service. There is none. So regarding the FCC rules you have misused
the term.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee,

The belief that a mandate for anateur radio to participate in public
service communications is quite common - just did a quick search on
Google, and II have attached an ARRL reference as well as one amateur
radio club, who both clearly call it a "mandate".

Not sure where in the regs this is, or whether it is an interpretation
of the Part 97 sections already quoted.

73, Leo


ARRL:

http://www2.arrl.org/qst/features-columns.html :

Public Service: Our mandate from the FCC includes the need to put our
knowledge and equipment to use in service to our fellow citizens.
Every month you'll read about what your fellow hams are doing to
fulfill this promise of service to their communities.


Kentucky Amateur Radio Web Site - ARES Operator Registration

http://www.qsl.net/kyham/forms/aresreg.html

Thank you very much for having the desire to serve your community, and
help to fulfill Amateur Radio's FCC mandate of public service in time
of emergency.



On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 01:08:05 GMT, "Dee D. Flint"
wrote:


"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"KØHB" wrote:

"Dwight Stewart" wrote

Again, the words mandate and authorization
are synonymous.


Not in any dictionary I can find, nor in Roget's.


Princeton University's WordNet...

http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/~wn/

Click on "Use WordNet Online" and enter "mandate." Notice the word
"authorization" right next to it for the first definition. Notice the word
"mandatory" next to it for the second definition. Mandate and
authorization
are synonymous in the context used.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)


But that is not the context in which you used it. There is nothing in Part
97 authorizing us to do public service. Public service is briefly mentioned
but only in recognition and encouragement. Paragraph 97.1a does not
authorize any one to do a thing.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Leo" wrote in message
...

Dee,

The belief that a mandate for anateur radio to participate in public
service communications is quite common - just did a quick search on
Google, and II have attached an ARRL reference as well as one amateur
radio club, who both clearly call it a "mandate".

Not sure where in the regs this is, or whether it is an interpretation
of the Part 97 sections already quoted.

73, Leo


ARRL:

http://www2.arrl.org/qst/features-columns.html :

Public Service: Our mandate from the FCC includes the need to put our
knowledge and equipment to use in service to our fellow citizens.
Every month you'll read about what your fellow hams are doing to
fulfill this promise of service to their communities.


Kentucky Amateur Radio Web Site - ARES Operator Registration

http://www.qsl.net/kyham/forms/aresreg.html

Thank you very much for having the desire to serve your community, and
help to fulfill Amateur Radio's FCC mandate of public service in time
of emergency.


These mistakes are quite common Leo and sometimes are fostered intentionally
just to make a good show. This is why every ham should read Part 97 from
beginning to end. The exact words in Part 97.1a are as follows (and this is
the only place public service is even mentioned.

97.1a
"Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur radio service to
the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly
with respect to providing emergency communications."

This wording certainly is no mandate or authorization. It's a recognition
of what we do and what we have always done. While public service is indeed
a time honored and honorable tradition and something that we should continue
to do, the FCC regs can hardly be construed to be either a mandate or an
authorization.

However, political grandstanding for selling your cause is also a long and
time honored tradition. I don't really agree with such actions (even on the
part of the ARRL) but calling a house a castle doesn't make it one.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee,

Agreed, the paragraph that you quote simply recognizes the value of
public service comms, no mandate or authorization is expressed or
implied.

I'm surprised, though, that an organization as large as the ARRL would
carry such a statement on their site without something to back it up -
an error, perhaps, or they found a lost FCC scroll, or ?

Has anyone emailed them to inquire just exactly where they got this
mandate idea from? I'm a ARRL member, and would be willing to do so
if you wish!

73, Leo


On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 01:55:30 GMT, "Dee D. Flint"
wrote:


"Leo" wrote in message
.. .

Dee,

The belief that a mandate for anateur radio to participate in public
service communications is quite common - just did a quick search on
Google, and II have attached an ARRL reference as well as one amateur
radio club, who both clearly call it a "mandate".

Not sure where in the regs this is, or whether it is an interpretation
of the Part 97 sections already quoted.

73, Leo


ARRL:

http://www2.arrl.org/qst/features-columns.html :

Public Service: Our mandate from the FCC includes the need to put our
knowledge and equipment to use in service to our fellow citizens.
Every month you'll read about what your fellow hams are doing to
fulfill this promise of service to their communities.


Kentucky Amateur Radio Web Site - ARES Operator Registration

http://www.qsl.net/kyham/forms/aresreg.html

Thank you very much for having the desire to serve your community, and
help to fulfill Amateur Radio's FCC mandate of public service in time
of emergency.


These mistakes are quite common Leo and sometimes are fostered intentionally
just to make a good show. This is why every ham should read Part 97 from
beginning to end. The exact words in Part 97.1a are as follows (and this is
the only place public service is even mentioned.

97.1a
"Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur radio service to
the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly
with respect to providing emergency communications."

This wording certainly is no mandate or authorization. It's a recognition
of what we do and what we have always done. While public service is indeed
a time honored and honorable tradition and something that we should continue
to do, the FCC regs can hardly be construed to be either a mandate or an
authorization.

However, political grandstanding for selling your cause is also a long and
time honored tradition. I don't really agree with such actions (even on the
part of the ARRL) but calling a house a castle doesn't make it one.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Leo" wrote in message
...
Dee,

Agreed, the paragraph that you quote simply recognizes the value of
public service comms, no mandate or authorization is expressed or
implied.

I'm surprised, though, that an organization as large as the ARRL would
carry such a statement on their site without something to back it up -
an error, perhaps, or they found a lost FCC scroll, or ?

Has anyone emailed them to inquire just exactly where they got this
mandate idea from? I'm a ARRL member, and would be willing to do so
if you wish!

73, Leo


Oh I wouldn't get too excited about it. Remember that among its other
functions, ARRL is a political entity. Political entities do use and abuse
the language. However note that even though the term is used on the
website, the study guides do not refer to public service as a mandate.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee D. Flint" wrote

There is nothing in Part 97 authorizing us to do public service.
Public service is briefly mentioned but only in recognition and
encouragement. Paragraph 97.1a does not
authorize any one to do a thing.

"Everything not specifically prohibited is mandatory."
--W5NET