Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Leo
writes:

On 14 Feb 2004 00:05:49 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

In article , Leo

writes:

I should have written "non-hams considering getting a license."
There are a couple of newsgroupies in here who demand adoration
and dedication to the 'service' which they equate to 'interest.' :-)

You really need to be more careful in your reading. Neither adoration
nor dedication to the ARS has been deemed necessary, nor has any
"demand" (one of your favorite words) been made. In your case, you've
written of "interest" a number of times but have never quite been
interested enough over the course of decades, to have actually taken an
amateur radio exam.

Few radio amateurs consider the whole of amateur radio.

There's Len's false premise #1.

Their
activity is intensely personal, one-on-one with their radio. If using
morse then they are devoid of normal human clues to the other
contact's whole personality...no visuals, no voice tone, no clues to
gender, no real sense of emotion of the other.

That's no different from newsgroup posts, e-mails or even a letter.

Voice mode is better
with normal voice clues to the other party.

I'd have to agree. If you aren't using a voice mode, you certainly
aren't going to have any "voice clues".

During all contacts on
the radio they remain in a relatively isolated spectral bandwidth even
if netted with several others. There is sufficiently long time for the
mind to imagine many things about the 'service,' to expand far from
its reality into realms of fantasy greatness.

I know there must be a point here somewhere. Radio amateurs may use any
mode authorized them. There are voice modes. There are modes which
lack "voice clues". Those would include any keyboard mode as well as
morse. Does your line about "fantasy greatness" come from your personal
feelings of fantasy greatness?

The major identification with the entirety of any national radio activity
is publications of a special-interest nature. To a rather large extent
in the USA, the ARRL uses their text to build upon the imagination of
its readers, to identify with it.

I see. Then National Geographic, Gun Digest, Southern Living, Gourmet,
Field and Stream do the same.

That lends reinforcement of the imaginary
grouping, provides a "sense of belonging" otherwise not happening in
radio use or even in a home workshop by themselves building something.

Imaginary grouping? It isn't imaginary, Leonard. Being an amateur radio
operator and belonging to the ARRL are very, very real. The sense of
belonging comes from actually belonging. One can be as involved in the
goings on or as uninvolved as one chooses.

As a result of this insular activity having little in the way of regular
human interaction with others, the individual amateur will use their own
experiences in the hobby as a basis of what others are expected to do.

Now we have Len's false premise #2. In reality, amateur radio is as
much about interacting with others as anything else. Hams chew the rag
on the air, via letters, on the telephone and on the internet.

The self-identification of personal desire with what should be (in their
minds) for others does not make a reasonable consideration of future
regulations that affect many, many others, including those not yet
licensed in amateur radio.

Len's false premise #3.

Any changes in amateur radio regulations have an effect on both those
desiring entry into amateur radio and those currently licensed in
amateur radio.

What adds to the unreasonableness is the ignorance of what other
radio services are doing and there being a great number of different
radio 'service' people using, maintaining, designing non-amateur radios.

It certainly isn't clear what is meant by the statement above. What
other services do or don't do has little to do with what radio amateurs
do or don't do. That's probably one of the reasons that there are
*different* radio services. What is good for some point-to-point,
channelized service isn't necessarily good for amateur radio.


The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood. Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.


All radios work by the same laws of physics.

All of everything seems to work by the same laws of physics as physics
are now understood.

Human made legislation
does not change the way a 'service's' radio works...

Of course not. Legislation regulates how they may or may not be used
and where they may or may not be used.

...or that a non-amateur
entering amateur radio be considered a "beginner."

Now that you've seen your sentence broken in half, does it occur that it
could use some work? A non-radio amateur who enters amateur radio is
always going to be a beginner in amateur radio just as a non-painter who
starts painting is a beginner in painting. Those who've just started
driving taxicabs are beginners at driving a cab. Why not write what you
really mean: that it chafes you to be thought of as a beginner.

[I am certain there
are Canadians as unreasonable as our esteamed robustness, Heil]

Oh, you mean those who don't agree with you and who might agree with me?
That's very likely. In fact, it is very likely that are quite a few of
'em.

There is another factor which is common to those amateurs not engaged
in a radio-specific occupation...that the state of the art of everything in
amateur remain rooted in the familiar they know.

It is tough to keep a running tally on the number of false premises. I
think this one is #4. You'd have no idea of whether this happens in
reality. Radio magazines are full of articles and adverts featuring new
devices, new equipment and new ideas. A lot of what radio amateurs
discuss is new devices, new equipment and new ideas.

That's almost
impossible since radio is only 107 years old and the technology involved
has been advancing in large plateau jumps all the while.

There's a masterful re-statment of the obvious!

That is true of
all electronics-related fields of work.

It is true of many fields of endeavor. It doesn't make your previous
statement correct.

They want the state of the art to
be fixed so they can enjoy what they found emotionally satisfying long
ago when they reached their personal best in the hobby.

Let's see, that's false premise #5, I believe. I've encountered no such
thinking. Was your personal best in radio those days at ADA? Those are
days you keep bringing up here?

Others of
the modern day are little interested in meeting antiquated standards of
entering amateur radio.

You mean *you* aren't interested in passing a morse code exam.

Radio amateurs who have already achieved the top "upgrade" license
class in their country would NOT be affected in their privileges. Their
only "affect" is a psychological disturbance due to newcomers not
having to do exactly as they did many years ago.

True as well. Those who achieved their license under a more rigorous
testing scheme will naturally see any reduction in testing
requirements as an erosion of standards, and will be offended by it.
That is simple human nature. Most affected by this are the folks at
the top level of licensing. Which makes sense - they put in the
greatest effort under the old system.

Add to that the uncertainty of understanding modern radio, other than
the emotionally-loaded advertisements for amateur radio equipment
and to use that to be one up on their fellows.

Why you condescending windbag! Where do you get the idea that no one
but you can possibly understand modern radio? How did you get the idea
that someone would only want the best equipment in order to play a game
of one-upmanship? Did it ever occur to you that someone would want the
best equipment because it can do the job better than something which
isn't as good? It must chafe you to realize that someone obtains the
latest transceiver, filled with all sorts of DSP tools and then uses
those tools to assist in hearing a weak morse signal on a static-filled
hunk of medium wave spectrum.

That "simple human nature" aspect can alienate them in the eyes of
others. Some of those do not profess to care citing their long tenure
and alleged self-worthiness. Those are just trying to put "greatness"
in the hobby activity by using themselves as top-level role models.

I've observed "simple human nature" here when someone proclaims himself
an advocate for regulation change in an activity in which he has no
involvement. I've observed it in one who brings up his military service
and insults the military service of others. Such "simple human nature"
comes up when someone talks of his PROFESSIONAL credentials and
accomplishments and insults the professional credentials and
accomplishments of others. Do you have any idea of who I mean?

It might be a guy who has little worthiness (self or otherwise), a guy
who has no tenure, a guy who has no "greatness" and a guy who has little
time to develop himself into any kind of role model within amateur
radio. If you'd like to talk reality, Len, here's some for you: You
aren't a radio amateur. You have no involvement in amateur radio.


Exactly the same in this regard. They regulate, not placate....

Placation is for the membership organizations. In the USA the ARRL
tries to pose as a second-level "government."

Len's false premise #6. It is simply an Andersonian ploy to smear the
ARRL with false accusations. Leonard, you are as involved in the
affairs of the ARRL as you are with amateur radio.

They are not but decades
of propaganda have created a large following of Believers. It works very
well for the ARRL; the propaganda is self-serving survival activity but
Believers in the league will not believe they have been brainwashed. :-)

In what do you believe, Leonard? Do you believe in amateur radio? Do
you believe you'll ever be a participant in amateur radio? Do you
believe that Dennis Kucinich has more support for his ideas than you for
yours?

Yup - there is clearly a notion that everyone who is not subjected to
the same rigorous testing as they were years ago is somehow getting a
free ride. What isn't being adequately taken in to account are the
underlying reasons for simplification, elimination or change of the
various test elements.

Much of that resentment is strictly personal, about themselves.

How much of your obvious resentment of radio amateurs and the ARRL is
strictly personal--about you?

Such
clouds judgement on what might be good for all, especially those not
yet licensed.

As one who is not yet licensed, do you believe your judgment on amateur
radio issues might be clouded by your personal feelings?

What has been stable, or relatively so over the years is known,
familiar. Such stability can be comforting. Change, newness is to be
avoided since an unknown condition can cause much anxiety. Then
too, personal rank, status, title might lessen if regulations change to
remove some of that.

You can take comfort in the known, Len. You're still not a radio
amateur.
You have nothing to do with the changes, lack of them, rank, status,
titles within amateur radio.

I believe that IC was simply giving the amateur community first chance
to voice their opinion - not from the perspective of a closed shop per
se, but because they wanted to hear the opinions of those currently
involved in the hobby before they decided what to do next. I'm no
expert in the inner workings of the government here, but I believe
that NPRM is the next step, and public comment is requested at that
stage.

I see little wrong with that to get an INITIAL opinion by any regulator.
I see lots wrong with it if the regulators do not hear from others prior
to decisions.

You've been heard from. Regulators are not mandated to take positive
action on your views.

Remember, with no incentive licensing scheme here, the perception of a
'class structure' of a hierarchical nature is not nearly as prevalent.
Most of the folks I have talked to welcome the elimination of code
testing - after all, it isn;t code that is being eliminated, just the
mandatory practical test - which only survived as far as 2003 because
of the ITU requirements. In the poll submitted from the amateur
community to IC, almost two thirds of the lecensed amateurs here want
code testing dropped from our requirements! Approximately the opposite
of the ARRL numbers bandied about here....

The decades of propaganda by the ARRL is showing up in the un-
swerving Belief that the old ways are still supposed to be best. Part of
that (on the part of ARRL) has been the catering to the insularity of
amateurs, of keeping the status as much quo as possible so as not
to upset the old-time amateur membership.

I think you may have the cart before the horse. Quite a number of long
time League members support continued morse testing. It is in the
ARRL's best interest to consider the views of its core membership, those
who provide money, while doing a delicate balancing act in trying to
attract new members. The League does cater to the insularity of radio
amateurs.
Catering to the insularity of radio fields is left to other
organizations which don't want to upset their core memberships.


By the way, it is quite possible that the FCC was all for BPL from the
first.

Possible? That fact was impossible to miss. It took surgeons several
hours to remove Kathleen Abernathy's shoe from her yap.


The NOI or Notice of Inquiry was NOT about whether or not the
service should exist...the Notice Of Inquiry was for the purposes of
determining what the standards of RFI should be. Almost none of the
5,199 documents submitted any such standards or levels. :-) All were
caught up in a wildfire confligration of opinion saying "BPL is BAD!"

That all took place, no doubt, because BPL at HF and the lower VHF
frequencies is BAD.

The FCC has had an intenal program to improve rural America's tie to
the Internet. BPL would fit right in with that noble goal. Connection to
the Internet over existing power lines involves very, very little additional
cost to anyone. Almost no one has bothered to think of that side of the
equation.

Lots of people have considered that side. Cost isn't everything. The
FCC denied amateurs a slice of LF spectrum based largely upon the idea
that such operation (at very low power) could interfere with electric
company low level communications via the power grid. The law of
reciprocity hasn't been repealed.

From what I'm hearing on the group, specifically WRT
incentive licensing several years ago, they seemed to ignore the will
of the majority and come up with something on their own.....which
seems to have annoyed everyone. Oh well, at least they got everyone
to agree on something!

Sigh. More human nature. Since certain sides didn't get their way,
they quaff the juice of fermented spoiled grapes...they whine before
the time. :-)

Are you writing of your personal feelings that the FCC has not yet done
away with morse testing in amateur radio or are you writing of your
bitterness that you've not yet attained that "Extra right out of the
box" or any other amateur radio license?

Many demand that the "majority" of anything do as they do or that
what they do IS what the "majority" does. They are absolutely,
poselutely for-sure knowing such, cannot be considered otherwise.

You've been DEMANDING that radio amateurs do as you wish. You aren't
even involved. Why the feelings that you know what is right for amateur
radio?
Why can't you consider otherwise?

The caste system of the "IL" or Incentive Licensing definitely exists
in USA amateur radio and continues today. It fits to a T the notion of
(or desire of) some who NEED some way to show they are "better
than others" through some sort of federal whatsis. Now that Internet
has robbed much of the ARRL's monopoly on communications direct
with the FCC, the FCC might be seeing a different picture of what
the feelings are in USA amateur radio.

Don't let the actuality of how incentive licensing came to be detract
from a wild-eyed rant, Len.

ARRL still doesn't have more than a quarter of all USA licensees as
members. They were always a minority group but had sufficent income
from publication profits to afford legal counsel and a lobbying company
in Washington, DC. At one time back the FCC just rubber-stamped
what the ARRL wanted. Not so anymore.

Your disingenuous side shines brightly, Len. The ARRL "minority" has
been for decades, the largest organization of radio amateurs by an
enormous margin. Rubber stamp this.

Dave K8MN

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely
alien from any other activity?

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.

This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very
similar activities.

snip

In article , "Mark Little"
writes:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely
alien from any other activity?

Dave got his opinions beamed down from the Mother Ship by aliens?

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.

This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very
similar activities.

It is VERY important to use PROPER PROCEDURE in all ham activity.

When hacking Western Union on the NTS, one MUST use the official
authorized radiogram forms. Net users may lose their jobs if the
official proper form is not used. All five of them.

Never at any time may other radio services' jargon, expressions, or any
other words except as officially permitted by league guides be used on
or off the air by devout amateurs. "Roger that" and "ten-four" phrases
are punishable by excommunication of any communication. The normal
penance is 100 Hail-Hirams and "sin no more" exhortations.

Proper civil courtesy on the air is to give everyone a "599" report, even
if asking for repeats due to local noise. On 'phone all have superb
diction and are perfectly understandable...always.

All amateur radios operate by laws of the league, not the laws of physics.
Correct procedure is to always consult a Handbook, never any textbook
about other radio services' equipment. Amateur radios do not work by
such non-applicable laws. Only league books have official information.

The "amateur community" always rules on dedication and committment
of all. Except for the Extras who are above criticsm and gods of radio.

All amateurs not expressing love, honor, and obeyance of morse code
are bottom-feeding slime and shall always be treated as inferior trash
not even worthy of contempt.

There, I guess this sums it up fairly well... :-)

LHA / WMD

The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is
false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

Huh ???? I better get another beer to figure out this one .... just who is
non-rational here ???? I haven't figured this one out yet. My idea of
amateur radio is a deversion from my daily routine. I do not live by it or
for it. It is my desire that all involved in the hobby-service-passion what
ever have a good time in fellowship.


The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get
a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

OK by your argument then lets say sex ..... but your definition of "real
feel" and what I say is normal may differ.

Take care 73 KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa.

Enjoying ham radio for what it is to me ..not what others perceive it or
wish it to be.

"garigue" wrote in message
news:zgAXb.313140$xy6.1534723@attbi_s02...

The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is
false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

Huh ???? I better get another beer to figure out this one .... just who
is
non-rational here ???? I haven't figured this one out yet. My idea of
amateur radio is a deversion from my daily routine. I do not live by it
or
for it. It is my desire that all involved in the hobby-service-passion
what
ever have a good time in fellowship.


The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot
get
a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

OK by your argument then lets say sex ..... but your definition of "real
feel" and what I say is normal may differ.

By taking this tack, even a licenced Amateur would not be able to get a
"real feel" as it is just about 100% certain that they will have different
interests and priorities than you.

I take a less metaphysical approach to "real feel". I mean it is relatively
easy to determine what Amateurs do and there are plenty of related things
(CB & marine radio, electronics kits, regulations, chat rooms, phones, etc)
so that a person could reasonably be expected to be about to judge whether
this would be interesting - before they went to the effort of getting a
licence.

Take care 73 KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa.

Enjoying ham radio for what it is to me ..not what others perceive it or
wish it to be.

As it should be, but that does not prevent unlicenced people from knowing
what the hobby is about. Whether they would enjoy those activities is a
matter of personality, not of holding a licence.

regards,
Mark

By taking this tack, even a licenced Amateur would not be able to get a
"real feel" as it is just about 100% certain that they will have different
interests and priorities than you.

As well it should be ... the hobby-service-what ever has a wealth of
deversity to offer but in the context of amateur radio. Any thing else for
the non-professional radio affecionado unless he has a ticket would by
defination not be amateur radio. Am I "dissing" those who don't have the
exalted ticket? Nope .. I knew a fellow who could copy 45 WPM and never had
a ticket but loved to listen to high speed CW on the ham bands. He said he
would rather be a SWLer ..and this guy never was a military or commercial
op.

I take a less metaphysical approach to "real feel". I mean it is
relatively
easy to determine what Amateurs do

Not really ...not that is is such a big deal but I find you are falling into
the trap that a lot of our "expert" hams out there fall into ....that is one
of projection of one's knowledge to another. I really read with a chuckle
those who say the test is too easy .. a give away. Again prospective. The
guy or gal who is just starting out with no basis is overwhelmed and needs
support with the simple things. I see this time and time again with our
club's yearly no-code classes.


and there are plenty of related things
(CB & marine radio, electronics kits, regulations, chat rooms, phones,
etc)
so that a person could reasonably be expected to be about to judge whether
this would be interesting - before they went to the effort of getting a
licence.

But they have choosen the unique experience of amateur radio.



As it should be, but that does not prevent unlicenced people from knowing
what the hobby is about. Whether they would enjoy those activities is a
matter of personality, not of holding a licence.

Maybe knowing "about" but really knowing with some sort of "real feeling"
......doubtful . Mater of personality ... boy have I known some personalitie
s in "hamdom" ... I can't say that there is a dominate personality ham type.

Take care Mark ...73 Tom Popovic KI3R

It is VERY important to use PROPER PROCEDURE in all ham activity.

Sort of like driving in the right lane so as to maximize everyone's
enjoyment .... reduce frustration etc.

When hacking Western Union on the NTS, one MUST use the official
authorized radiogram forms. Net users may lose their jobs if the
official proper form is not used. All five of them.

Whatever floats one's boat ...again not my call on what I define as
enjoyment. Passing traffic ... not for me personally.

Never at any time may other radio services' jargon, expressions, or any
other words except as officially permitted by league guides be used on
or off the air by devout amateurs. "Roger that" and "ten-four" phrases
are punishable by excommunication of any communication. The normal
penance is 100 Hail-Hirams and "sin no more" exhortations.

Better watch it Len ...Hiram is listening ...

Proper civil courtesy on the air is to give everyone a "599" report,
even

......during contests where all signals are 599 due to the ruler of the
ionosphere making it so ...could never figure out this one ...but again I
could never figure out contests but again whatever floats one's boat ...have
a good time.


if asking for repeats due to local noise. On 'phone all have superb
diction and are perfectly understandable...always.

Len ...I have to get the receiver you are using and that DSP mode for
diction control ...from what I have heard ..we could sure use it .

All amateur radios operate by laws of the league, not the laws of
physics.
Correct procedure is to always consult a Handbook, never any textbook
about other radio services' equipment. Amateur radios do not work by
such non-applicable laws. Only league books have official information.

Ah Len com'on ...thats a stretch even tounge in cheekedly ...besides how do
you expect the league to make money? BTW are you a Diamond Club member yet
.... for a couple grand you can get a discount on all league publications.
That should pay for itself in a millenium or 2.

The "amateur community" always rules on dedication and committment
of all. Except for the Extras who are above criticsm and gods of
radio.

Len you need to talk to my wife ...she dosen't think so. I have heard her
use a phrase containing God in reference to my radio as in get off that ***
**** radio and do some work around here.

All amateurs not expressing love, honor, and obeyance of morse code
are bottom-feeding slime and shall always be treated as inferior trash
not even worthy of contempt.

Naa not really ... but they are missing out on one tool in the box of ham
radio.

There, I guess this sums it up fairly well... :-)

eehhh ..... maybe
LHA / WMD

Take care Len ..73 KI3R Tom

In article , "Mark Little"
writes:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

The question, then, is "what is a similar thing?"

What would be similar to, say:

- having a baby
- running a marathon
- playing a musical instrument really well

(others are invited to add to the list)

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

There are also big differences.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely
alien from any other activity?

Several things:

1) Hams have a level of freedom pretty much unmatched in other services. Wide
variety of modes, bands, technologies, and activities. No channelization or
requirement to use certain types of equipment.

2) Hams are almost all self-funded and noncommercial, using their own equipment
on their own time.

3) [this it the really big one] Amateur radio is, at its core, radio
communication for its own sake. To other services, radio is but a means to an
end, but to hams the medium really is a big part of the message. Or to put it
another way, the ham's journey is as important, if not more important, than the
destination.

This is why certain things from other services don't apply to hams.

The person watching TV usually doesn't care how the signal gets to the set -
VHF, UHF, terrestrical, satellite, analog, digital, cable, fiber, whatever. All
the TV viewer cares about is how good the picture, sound and program are.

The military communications folks don't care how the messages are carried, just
so the messages get where they need to be, when they need to be there, without
the bad guys knowing about them.

Do you know or care how your email and postings get to and from your computer?
If you're like 99.99% of the online population, it's not an issue as long as it
happens.

Heck, many if not most cellphone users don't even think in terms of "radio" -
the cellphone to them is a telephone without wires, that's all. (In fact I have
had people tell me that a cellphone is *not* a radio!)

The radio amateur does radio, for the most part, for purely emotional reasons.
IOW, because it's fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc. "Radio for it's
own sake".

This is why modes like Morse code, AM voice and Baudot FSK RTTY continue in use
in amateur radio. Hams like them. They're fun, and they work.

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.

This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very
similar activities.

And some very big differences. Much of what is done in other radio services
does not transfer to amateur radio at all. For example, every other radio
service I know of seeks to eliminate the need for a skill in the operation of
the radio equipment. They think in terms of "user", not "radio operator". And
given their constraints, it may make sense to do so, because it is usually less
expensive to buy sophisticated equipment than to pay a skilled radio operator.
But to hams, radio operating skill is the whole point.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Mark Little"

writes:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is
false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get
a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

The question, then, is "what is a similar thing?"

What would be similar to, say:

- having a baby
According to a woman I know, passing a kidney stone. She has done both so is
probably in a good situation to know. I will take that one on faith as
neither seems that appealing.

- running a marathon
"Hitting the wall" and the physical tribulations associated with a marathon
are not limited to running. If you have done other activities that stress
the body, then you are in a position to get the "feel". In my case, that is
just running to the end of the street. ;-)

- playing a musical instrument really well
Anyone who has had to practice long and hard to achieve any hand skill will
know the satisfaction that comes with doing something well. I can't play the
guitar "really well", but I think it is safe to say I have a feel for what
it would be like to be able to do so.

(others are invited to add to the list)
Jumping off a cliff - Never done it, but I have a good feel for what
happens - At the bottom, you go splattt!!!!!

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as
being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the
operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious
conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and
information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

There are also big differences.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is
completely
alien from any other activity?

Several things:

1) Hams have a level of freedom pretty much unmatched in other services.
Wide
variety of modes, bands, technologies, and activities. No channelization
or
requirement to use certain types of equipment.

I suggest that you look at the FCC page and search for "experimental
licence". These couple of snippets may be of interest to show its breadth:

"Any person or entity--corporation, individual, etc. that is not a foreign
government or representative of a foreign government may obtain an
experimental license."

"Any frequency allocated to non-Government or Government use in the Table
of Frequency Allocations may be assigned under the Experimental Radio
Service, except frequencies exclusively allocated to the passive services."

Use of non-approved equipment is also permitted with this licence.

2) Hams are almost all self-funded and noncommercial, using their own
equipment
on their own time.

Agreed, but again this is not unique. Plenty of people including CB
operators and pleasure marine radio operators in the same boat (pun
intended).

3) [this it the really big one] Amateur radio is, at its core, radio
communication for its own sake. To other services, radio is but a means to
an
end, but to hams the medium really is a big part of the message. Or to put
it
another way, the ham's journey is as important, if not more important,
than the
destination.

You are incorrect to assert that the medium is not important to others,
especially in the scientific community. Radio propagation research by
definition is interested in the medium.

It is also misleading to imply that the majority of Amateur have the medium
as the primary focus of their activities. The majority of Amateurs use
commercial equipment and spend the majority of their time chin-wagging. From
their conversations, it is obvious that the conversation is more import than
the medium.

This is why certain things from other services don't apply to hams.

The person watching TV usually doesn't care how the signal gets to the
set -
VHF, UHF, terrestrical, satellite, analog, digital, cable, fiber,
whatever. All
the TV viewer cares about is how good the picture, sound and program are.

While the person who watches TV may have no idea how it works, there is a
complete army of people behind that tube that do know how it works and why
it works. If one were to subtract the number of hams who cannot even fix a
simple fault in their commerical rig, the odds would not be much different.

The military communications folks don't care how the messages are carried,
just
so the messages get where they need to be, when they need to be there,
without
the bad guys knowing about them.

I'll bet its fair to say that most Amateurs do not understand how Packet,
PACTOR or even just their rigs work. They simply plug in the boxes and off
they go.

Do you know or care how your email and postings get to and from your
computer?

Actually, I do as I run my own servers.

If you're like 99.99% of the online population, it's not an issue as long
as it
happens.

This is also the case for many Amateurs. Most would not know how their
current rig works and they would neither have the expertise or equipment to
find anything but the most trivial of faults.

Heck, many if not most cellphone users don't even think in terms of
"radio" -
the cellphone to them is a telephone without wires, that's all. (In fact I
have
had people tell me that a cellphone is *not* a radio!)

As I said most Amateurs don't know how packet works or even how their Yaesu
works. Under this defintion, most Amateurs aren't amateurs either. If one
goes into particular instances, I've fixed radios for more than one full
call that could not find that the battery wire had broken. Such anecdotes
may be amusing, but have little value in the big picture.

The radio amateur does radio, for the most part, for purely emotional
reasons.
IOW, because it's fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc. "Radio for
it's
own sake".

Certainly in the area I work, I have seen the scientists knock back very
large amounts of money because it didn't have a research component that they
found "fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc."

This is why modes like Morse code, AM voice and Baudot FSK RTTY continue
in use
in amateur radio. Hams like them. They're fun, and they work.

Morse - still used commercially, in the forces and aviation (ident calls).
AM voice - still used in broadcasting.
FSK RTTY - still used as anyone with a communications rig can tell you.

None of these are unique to AR.

There is no doubt that these modes work and "fun" to some people. This is
true even if you are a commercial operator. There are plenty of people who
actually enjoy their work.

BTW, not all hams like these modes. Many people don't like Morse, many also
don't like AM because of its bandwidth, especially in the lower bands and
most Amateurs don't use RTTY with or without the clunking teleprinter.

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.

This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even
very
similar activities.

And some very big differences. Much of what is done in other radio
services
does not transfer to amateur radio at all. For example, every other radio
service I know of seeks to eliminate the need for a skill in the operation
of
the radio equipment. They think in terms of "user", not "radio operator".
And
given their constraints, it may make sense to do so, because it is usually
less
expensive to buy sophisticated equipment than to pay a skilled radio
operator.

How many Amateurs still neutralise their power amplifiers? No many. Why?
Because they have decided to buy (in most cases not build) more
sophisticated equipment that reduces the skill required to operate the
radio. There is no difference. I don't know too many Amateurs who go to buy
a rig and want the one that is the hardest to use.

But to hams, radio operating skill is the whole point.

Unsustainable if you listen to the bands. Most people do not even comply
with the statuatory requirements for identification, let alone push the
envelope of operating skills.

Are you suggesting that randomly monitoring the Amateur Bands for a few
hours would show a very high level of operating skill? I wouldn't bet the
farm on that one, would you?

As I said, AR is by no means "unique" in what it provides and there are many
people in the radio field, even if they don't hold an AR licence that would
have a "really good feel" of what the Amateur Serice is all about bases on
their other experiences.

It concerns me when Amateurs attempt to tell others that AR is "unique" and
that a non-amateur could never underestand what it is all about, because all
it does is reduce credibilty.


Mark


73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , "Mark Little"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Mark Little"

writes:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is
false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own
ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get
a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

The question, then, is "what is a similar thing?"

What would be similar to, say:

- having a baby
According to a woman I know, passing a kidney stone. She has done both so is
probably in a good situation to know. I will take that one on faith as
neither seems that appealing.

Those two are similar only in the pain experienced and the relief when it's
over.
But the joy of a new baby is not part of the kidney stone episode.

- running a marathon
"Hitting the wall" and the physical tribulations associated with a marathon
are not limited to running. If you have done other activities that stress
the body, then you are in a position to get the "feel". In my case, that is
just running to the end of the street. ;-)

There's a lot more to the marathon than "hitting the wall", which doesn't
happen
to all marathoners anyway. (I've run two marathons and numerous shorter races,
btw)

- playing a musical instrument really well
Anyone who has had to practice long and hard to achieve any hand skill will
know the satisfaction that comes with doing something well. I can't play the
guitar "really well", but I think it is safe to say I have a feel for what
it would be like to be able to do so.

So playing a guitar well is similar to playing a guitar really well...

(others are invited to add to the list)
Jumping off a cliff - Never done it, but I have a good feel for what
happens - At the bottom, you go splattt!!!!!

HAW!

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as
being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the
operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious
conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and
information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

There are also big differences.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is
completely
alien from any other activity?

Several things:

1) Hams have a level of freedom pretty much unmatched in other services.
Wide
variety of modes, bands, technologies, and activities. No channelization
or
requirement to use certain types of equipment.

I suggest that you look at the FCC page and search for "experimental
licence". These couple of snippets may be of interest to show its breadth:

"Any person or entity--corporation, individual, etc. that is not a foreign
government or representative of a foreign government may obtain an
experimental license."

"Any frequency allocated to non-Government or Government use in the Table
of Frequency Allocations may be assigned under the Experimental Radio
Service, except frequencies exclusively allocated to the passive services."

Use of non-approved equipment is also permitted with this licence.

Not the same thing! Each experimental license is granted for a specific
purpose,
isn't it? The applicant has to make application for a specific reason, not
general
experimentation, and the license is limited to the specific experimentation
applied for.
It's not a general-purpose thing like a ham license.

How many experimental licenses are currently issued by FCC? There are over
682,000
US ham licenses issued to individuals.

How many new experimental licenses were issued by FCC last year? FCC issued
over 20,000 new ham licenses in 2003.

2) Hams are almost all self-funded and noncommercial, using their own
equipment on their own time.

Agreed, but again this is not unique. Plenty of people including CB
operators and pleasure marine radio operators in the same boat (pun
intended).

Those services are not about "radio for its own sake" and allow only a very
limited choice of channels and modes.

3) [this it the really big one] Amateur radio is, at its core, radio
communication for its own sake. To other services, radio is but a means to
an end, but to hams the medium really is a big part of the message. Or to
put
it another way, the ham's journey is as important, if not more important,
than the destination.

You are incorrect to assert that the medium is not important to others,
especially in the scientific community. Radio propagation research by
definition is interested in the medium.

Only to find out how it works.

It is also misleading to imply that the majority of Amateur have the medium
as the primary focus of their activities. The majority of Amateurs use
commercial equipment and spend the majority of their time chin-wagging.
From their conversations, it is obvious that the conversation is more import
than
the medium.

If that were true, most of those conversations would have moved to other means
of communication long ago.

This is why certain things from other services don't apply to hams.

The person watching TV usually doesn't care how the signal gets to the
set - VHF, UHF, terrestrical, satellite, analog, digital, cable, fiber,
whatever. All
the TV viewer cares about is how good the picture, sound and program are.

While the person who watches TV may have no idea how it works, there is a
complete army of people behind that tube that do know how it works and why
it works.

That's true, but it's not the point. The TV viewer and the ham are both the
"end users",
but it makes no difference to the TV viewer whether the program got to him/her
by radio,
wire, etc. There *is* a difference to the ham whether the QSO is by radio or
landline.

If one were to subtract the number of hams who cannot even fix a
simple fault in their commerical rig, the odds would not be much different.

That's not the "how" I was referring to. A ham cares that it's "communication
by radio" - the TV viewer doesn't.

The military communications folks don't care how the messages are carried,
just
so the messages get where they need to be, when they need to be there,
without
the bad guys knowing about them.

I'll bet its fair to say that most Amateurs do not understand how Packet,
PACTOR or even just their rigs work.

I disagree. But that's not the point.

They simply plug in the boxes and off they go.

Again, a ham cares that it's "communication by radio"

Do you know or care how your email and postings get to and from your
computer?

Actually, I do as I run my own servers.

Exception that proves the rule. And once it leaves your servers?

If you're like 99.99% of the online population, it's not an issue as long
as it happens.

This is also the case for many Amateurs. Most would not know how their
current rig works and they would neither have the expertise or equipment to
find anything but the most trivial of faults.

Again, not the point. A ham cares that it's "communication by radio", but most
email users don't care if the medium is wire, fiber, etc.

Heck, many if not most cellphone users don't even think in terms of
"radio" -
the cellphone to them is a telephone without wires, that's all. (In fact I
have had people tell me that a cellphone is *not* a radio!)

As I said most Amateurs don't know how packet works or even how their Yaesu
works.

How do you know that for sure?

Under this defintion, most Amateurs aren't amateurs either. If one
goes into particular instances, I've fixed radios for more than one full
call that could not find that the battery wire had broken. Such anecdotes
may be amusing, but have little value in the big picture.

Point is they at least knew it was a radio.

The radio amateur does radio, for the most part, for purely emotional
reasons.
IOW, because it's fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc. "Radio for
it's own sake".

Certainly in the area I work, I have seen the scientists knock back very
large amounts of money because it didn't have a research component that they
found "fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc."

But only as an expedient. Not as a rule.

This is why modes like Morse code, AM voice and Baudot FSK RTTY continue
in use in amateur radio. Hams like them. They're fun, and they work.

Morse - still used commercially, in the forces and aviation (ident calls).

Some will argue that point!

AM voice - still used in broadcasting.
FSK RTTY - still used as anyone with a communications rig can tell you.

Baudot! Not just FSK

None of these are unique to AR.

No, they're not. But their choice in other services is driven by considerations
other than what the operators like. That's the point.

There is no doubt that these modes work and "fun" to some people. This is
true even if you are a commercial operator. There are plenty of people who
actually enjoy their work.

Sure, but as a rule they are not the one making the choice.

BTW, not all hams like these modes. Many people don't like Morse, many also
don't like AM because of its bandwidth, especially in the lower bands and
most Amateurs don't use RTTY with or without the clunking teleprinter.

By choice - that's the point!

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.

This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even
very similar activities.

And some very big differences. Much of what is done in other radio
services
does not transfer to amateur radio at all. For example, every other radio
service I know of seeks to eliminate the need for a skill in the operation
of
the radio equipment. They think in terms of "user", not "radio operator".
And
given their constraints, it may make sense to do so, because it is usually
less
expensive to buy sophisticated equipment than to pay a skilled radio
operator.

How many Amateurs still neutralise their power amplifiers?

I do.

No many. Why?
Because they have decided to buy (in most cases not build) more
sophisticated equipment that reduces the skill required to operate the
radio.

I build my ham rigs, either from scratch or kits.

There is no difference.

Yes, there is.

Neutralization is an alignment adjustment, not part of operating the rig.

I don't know too many Amateurs who go to buy
a rig and want the one that is the hardest to use.

Not the point. Modes like ALE and conventions such as channelization have
not had much acceptance in amateur radio, even though very widely used in
other services.

But to hams, radio operating skill is the whole point.

Unsustainable if you listen to the bands.

I do, and that's why I make the observation.

Most people do not even comply
with the statuatory requirements for identification, let alone push the
envelope of operating skills.

Where have you noticed that? I see just the opposite on the bands and modes I
use.

Are you suggesting that randomly monitoring the Amateur Bands for a few
hours would show a very high level of operating skill? I wouldn't bet the
farm on that one, would you?

No, I'm saying that hams value operating skills, even if they don't always have
the highest level of them. Someone who plays a guitar for fun usually values
skill at doing so, even if they're not as good as the guy on the CD.

As I said, AR is by no means "unique" in what it provides and there are many
people in the radio field, even if they don't hold an AR licence that would
have a "really good feel" of what the Amateur Serice is all about bases on
their other experiences.

Maybe. But in general I'd disagree.

It concerns me when Amateurs attempt to tell others that AR is "unique" and
that a non-amateur could never underestand what it is all about, because all
it does is reduce credibilty.

If amateur radio is not unique, why should it exist?

73 de Jim, N2EY