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  #261   Report Post  
Old February 14th 04, 11:32 PM
Mark Little
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own

ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.


Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely
alien from any other activity?

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.


This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very
similar activities.

snip



  #262   Report Post  
Old February 15th 04, 12:24 AM
Len Over 21
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , (N2EY)
writes:

In article , "Helmut"
writes:


My philosophy is that anyone in any country who can pass the required tests of

that
country and get the required license is welcome on the ham bands.


...but not in here where only "real" hams belong... :-)


Most of them did not pass the "US
GOLD CARD EXTRA" tests. They are given full HF privileges by the
authorities.


Sure - that's up to the governments of their countries. And what US hams get

is up
to the FCC.


...all after severe and almost solo lobbying by the ARRL in older times.

This will also occur in the United States in the near future.


You mean the FCC will eliminate the Extra class license? How and why?


You are the "insider" at the FCC, what are they "really thinking?" :-)

Do you realy think, your authority will step back from their voting at
WRC03? Do you think they want to loose their face towards those other
countries they were partnering at the WRC03?


I'm not sure what you mean.


Tsk, tsk, tsk...you never followed the reports via the IARU and other
nations' administrative delegations, did you? :-)


They all are your fellow hams. Your friends, buddies, pals, or fellas. Why
don't you try to do the same, as the rest of the worlds hams are doing to
their hamfriends, stepping up now into the heaven of ham radio?


I've been in the heaven of ham radio for almost 37 years now, Helmut. Last
night I worked an OK1 on 40 CW and an F5 on 80 CW with my 100W
homebrew rig. Got the OK1 on the first buzz but there was quite a pile on
the F5.


You didn't answer the question...

Welcome
them, elmer them, if you think they are not skilled enough, and give them
the feeling of beeing welcome in your part of the spectrum.


Been doing that for almost 37 years now.


Of course you have, spending hours and hours on the computer telling
everyone to follow the old ways, to concentrate on telegraphy as the
most valuable skill. :-)


From all the others around the globe you cannot tell, if they've got their
HF-privileges after the WRC without passing a test.


You're missing the point, Helmut.


You are missing Helmut's point, James.

What is being proposed by some is that some existing hams get a free
upgrade to the next-higher license class without a *written* test that is
required of everyone else. Some of us don't think that's a good idea.


Yes, it robs you of your federally-guaranteed bragging rights. :-)

What will your reaction
be? "Go home, this is MY PARTof the spectrum"?


No. But I will oppose changing the rules.


The status quo must remain. Forever. Ho hum.

There will be poor operational skills around for a while.


That's not the issue at all.


Is BPL the issue? :-)

Just recall YOUR first months of HF-operation.


October 1967.


Mine was in February, 1953. :-) I was already an
adult, of age...

No master ever fell out of the blue sky, they all had to take
their lesson and do her homework and practice.


But first they had to take the required tests.


I didn't take any tests. Just followed orders. Did that for 3
years with 43 HF transmitters and/or 9 24-channel microwave
terminals. No problem.


I agree with all of that. But that code does not mean that I must accept
without protest any and all proposed changes to the ARS.


...yas, yas, only MORSE CODE must be followed... :-)

--The original Amateur's Code was written by Paul M. Segal, W9EEA, in 1928.
Nowadays there has to be added: global thinking


What does global thinking have to do with requirements for an amateur radio
license in the USA?


Certainly, reciprocal operation...not to mention being on good terms with
other nations for negotiations with the gigantic non-amateur radio
activity.

Maybe the rest of the world should adopt the USA's ideas.


Careful...your innate superiority is showing...


And concerning this newsgroup as to be US-based and written in english
language is not protecting you of beeing a ham. Act like, speak like and
write like it is to the honor of amateur radio.


What have I written that is dishonorable? I have said that *all* who pass the
required tests and get the required license are welcome in *our* sandbox.


You need to think of changing the sand...


I don't see where dropping the code test to 5 wpm helped much. A lot of
existing US hams
upgraded their existing licenses, but an even greater number did not. There
was a
very slight increase in the number of US hams. But not a large increase.


tsk, tsk, tsk...there's only a few thousand or so OTHER hobby
activities that vie for attention. I'm sure you discount those as
inconsequential...

Several countries around the globe have dropped their Morse code tests

entirely.
Have they gotten lots more new hams as a result?


Was dropping the morse test requirement ALL about "getting more
hams?" I don't think so. Obviously you do.

Your authority ignored it. Do you think they did
change their habit to please 10 percent of the american hams?


The USA reduced code testing to 5 wpm back in April 2000, even though
the majority of American hams who expressed an opinion to the government
wanted more than 5 wpm.


There were no more than 2300 Comments by individuals to FCC
NPRM 98-143. That is less than 0.3% of those licensed; a
couple of those were licensed with other countries.

There's over 5100 Comments on NOI 03-104.

"Majority?" I don't see it. But, if the ARRL said it was a "majority"
then everyone has to believe the ARRL. The ARRL can do no wrong.


To be even more specific: In the Cairo convention of 1938, certain central
European governments insisted on taking part of the ham band for SWBC.
Their allies in the Far East agreed. The compromise was that Region 2
kept 40 meters as 7000-7300.

And although those governments are long gone, it has taken more than
60 years to change things.


Tsk, tsk, tsk...the 40 m issue wasn't solved at WARC-79 and didn't get
any real start at any solution until WRC-03. It won't be close to solved
until WRC-07.

In the meantime, I would suggest a review of world political change
that happened between 1938 and 1955. Was rather a lot of change
that I witnessed. Take all the time you need.


Jim, it is not the difference in numbers, it is just the fact, that it
happend.


If there is no difference in numbers, why make the change?


Right...maintain the status quo foever and ever. Yawn.


Showing anger and agressiv language against those beeing a
"victim" of the restructuring process doesn't bring any good to the ham
family.


I see far more anger from others who disagree with me. Your friend Len
Anderson is very angry and aggressive. He is not a ham and would not
make a good ham, judging by how he writes here.


Tsk, tsk, tsk...still smarting over not getting the honor and respect
you think you deserve in newsgroups? :-)

Do you think your Amateur Extra class license puts you "above"
all others? :-) [of course you do...and you bitterly resent the
others not agreeing with you...]

Not in your country, and not around the world. And where we cannot
do anything against it, it's not worth to argue about it.


But maybe something can be done about it.


Careful or you will be labeled "angry and agressive!" :-)

I don't think the written tests for a US amateur radio license with full
privileges should be made easier. In fact, I think they are too easy.
The *written* tests! Should I just be quiet about it?


Right! No "quiet." Be ANGRY AND AGGRESSIVE. Every day
of the week... :-)


Here in Europe, we even did'nt have the time to try negotiating. The
authorities of the various countries just signed the bill and thats it.


That's why I live in the USA. We have the right to argue and negotiate.


Except in this newsgroup where just anyone can come in! :-)

It's
called the democratic process. Some of my distant ancestors invented it
thousands of years ago.


Oh my! The Greeks did it, but by males only.

The first practical application was in Iceland about 2000 years ago.
It was called the "Althing" in Scandinavian. :-)


I disagree. Our FCC should go through the democratic process, not simply
hand down rules with no discussion.


Oh? I thought you wanted the FCC to accept anything the ARRL
told them to do?

Saves time and energy by letting ARRL do all the dirty work.
That way you are free to "work" OKs and F5s. :-)

This would save you all here on this thread a lot of nerves.


Maybe. But discussion is part of the process.


Except in here where "lesser" individuals are considered bottom-
feeding slime, unworthy of saying anything... :-)

LHA / WMD
  #263   Report Post  
Old February 15th 04, 01:01 AM
Len Over 21
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , "Mark Little"
writes:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own

ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.


Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely
alien from any other activity?


Dave got his opinions beamed down from the Mother Ship by aliens?

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.


This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very
similar activities.


It is VERY important to use PROPER PROCEDURE in all ham activity.

When hacking Western Union on the NTS, one MUST use the official
authorized radiogram forms. Net users may lose their jobs if the
official proper form is not used. All five of them.

Never at any time may other radio services' jargon, expressions, or any
other words except as officially permitted by league guides be used on
or off the air by devout amateurs. "Roger that" and "ten-four" phrases
are punishable by excommunication of any communication. The normal
penance is 100 Hail-Hirams and "sin no more" exhortations.

Proper civil courtesy on the air is to give everyone a "599" report, even
if asking for repeats due to local noise. On 'phone all have superb
diction and are perfectly understandable...always.

All amateur radios operate by laws of the league, not the laws of physics.
Correct procedure is to always consult a Handbook, never any textbook
about other radio services' equipment. Amateur radios do not work by
such non-applicable laws. Only league books have official information.

The "amateur community" always rules on dedication and committment
of all. Except for the Extras who are above criticsm and gods of radio.

All amateurs not expressing love, honor, and obeyance of morse code
are bottom-feeding slime and shall always be treated as inferior trash
not even worthy of contempt.

There, I guess this sums it up fairly well... :-)

LHA / WMD
  #264   Report Post  
Old February 15th 04, 01:29 AM
N2EY
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , "Mark Little"
writes:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own

ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.


Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.


The question, then, is "what is a similar thing?"

What would be similar to, say:

- having a baby
- running a marathon
- playing a musical instrument really well

(others are invited to add to the list)

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.


There are also big differences.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely
alien from any other activity?


Several things:

1) Hams have a level of freedom pretty much unmatched in other services. Wide
variety of modes, bands, technologies, and activities. No channelization or
requirement to use certain types of equipment.

2) Hams are almost all self-funded and noncommercial, using their own equipment
on their own time.

3) [this it the really big one] Amateur radio is, at its core, radio
communication for its own sake. To other services, radio is but a means to an
end, but to hams the medium really is a big part of the message. Or to put it
another way, the ham's journey is as important, if not more important, than the
destination.

This is why certain things from other services don't apply to hams.

The person watching TV usually doesn't care how the signal gets to the set -
VHF, UHF, terrestrical, satellite, analog, digital, cable, fiber, whatever. All
the TV viewer cares about is how good the picture, sound and program are.

The military communications folks don't care how the messages are carried, just
so the messages get where they need to be, when they need to be there, without
the bad guys knowing about them.

Do you know or care how your email and postings get to and from your computer?
If you're like 99.99% of the online population, it's not an issue as long as it
happens.

Heck, many if not most cellphone users don't even think in terms of "radio" -
the cellphone to them is a telephone without wires, that's all. (In fact I have
had people tell me that a cellphone is *not* a radio!)

The radio amateur does radio, for the most part, for purely emotional reasons.
IOW, because it's fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc. "Radio for it's
own sake".

This is why modes like Morse code, AM voice and Baudot FSK RTTY continue in use
in amateur radio. Hams like them. They're fun, and they work.

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.


This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very
similar activities.


And some very big differences. Much of what is done in other radio services
does not transfer to amateur radio at all. For example, every other radio
service I know of seeks to eliminate the need for a skill in the operation of
the radio equipment. They think in terms of "user", not "radio operator". And
given their constraints, it may make sense to do so, because it is usually less
expensive to buy sophisticated equipment than to pay a skilled radio operator.
But to hams, radio operating skill is the whole point.

73 de Jim, N2EY


  #265   Report Post  
Old February 15th 04, 01:51 AM
garigue
 
Posts: n/a
Default


The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is

false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own

ignorance.


Huh ???? I better get another beer to figure out this one .... just who is
non-rational here ???? I haven't figured this one out yet. My idea of
amateur radio is a deversion from my daily routine. I do not live by it or
for it. It is my desire that all involved in the hobby-service-passion what
ever have a good time in fellowship.


The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.


Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get

a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.


OK by your argument then lets say sex ..... but your definition of "real
feel" and what I say is normal may differ.

Take care 73 KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa.

Enjoying ham radio for what it is to me ..not what others perceive it or
wish it to be.




  #266   Report Post  
Old February 15th 04, 01:58 AM
Dave Heil
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mark Little wrote:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own

ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.


Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.


Nonsense, yourself. There are plenty of activities which might have
some outward similarities to other things but which are actually quite
different. Hunting with a shotgun is quite different than hunting with
a rifle. Even the aiming technique is very different. Driving the
family sedan on the roads and highways doesn't give one the feel for
Formula One racing. Being a Television station engineer doesn't impart
a feel for how to chase a weak one on 160m.

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the operations -
there are licences,


How tough was the studying for a license for which there is no exam? ;-)

there are regulations,


The regs aren't very much alike, are they? In fact, such point-to-point
channelized communications can only be compared to amateur VHF/UHF FM
operation.

there are serious conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is completely
alien from any other activity?


Oh, I can't think of a thing, Mark. Let's allow an artillery officer
who has never hunted game, decide best how game hunting should be
regulated.

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.


This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even very
similar activities.


You can bet there are and if you've read many of Leonard H. Anderson's
posts over the years, you'll find that he doesn't see them.

Dave K8MN
  #267   Report Post  
Old February 15th 04, 02:19 AM
garigue
 
Posts: n/a
Default


It is VERY important to use PROPER PROCEDURE in all ham activity.


Sort of like driving in the right lane so as to maximize everyone's
enjoyment .... reduce frustration etc.

When hacking Western Union on the NTS, one MUST use the official
authorized radiogram forms. Net users may lose their jobs if the
official proper form is not used. All five of them.


Whatever floats one's boat ...again not my call on what I define as
enjoyment. Passing traffic ... not for me personally.

Never at any time may other radio services' jargon, expressions, or any
other words except as officially permitted by league guides be used on
or off the air by devout amateurs. "Roger that" and "ten-four" phrases
are punishable by excommunication of any communication. The normal
penance is 100 Hail-Hirams and "sin no more" exhortations.


Better watch it Len ...Hiram is listening ...

Proper civil courtesy on the air is to give everyone a "599" report,

even

......during contests where all signals are 599 due to the ruler of the
ionosphere making it so ...could never figure out this one ...but again I
could never figure out contests but again whatever floats one's boat ...have
a good time.


if asking for repeats due to local noise. On 'phone all have superb
diction and are perfectly understandable...always.


Len ...I have to get the receiver you are using and that DSP mode for
diction control ...from what I have heard ..we could sure use it .

All amateur radios operate by laws of the league, not the laws of

physics.
Correct procedure is to always consult a Handbook, never any textbook
about other radio services' equipment. Amateur radios do not work by
such non-applicable laws. Only league books have official information.


Ah Len com'on ...thats a stretch even tounge in cheekedly ...besides how do
you expect the league to make money? BTW are you a Diamond Club member yet
.... for a couple grand you can get a discount on all league publications.
That should pay for itself in a millenium or 2.

The "amateur community" always rules on dedication and committment
of all. Except for the Extras who are above criticsm and gods of

radio.

Len you need to talk to my wife ...she dosen't think so. I have heard her
use a phrase containing God in reference to my radio as in get off that ***
**** radio and do some work around here.

All amateurs not expressing love, honor, and obeyance of morse code
are bottom-feeding slime and shall always be treated as inferior trash
not even worthy of contempt.


Naa not really ... but they are missing out on one tool in the box of ham
radio.

There, I guess this sums it up fairly well... :-)


eehhh ..... maybe
LHA / WMD


Take care Len ..73 KI3R Tom


  #268   Report Post  
Old February 15th 04, 02:40 AM
Mike Coslo
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bill Sohl wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Bill Sohl wrote:

"N2EY" wrote in message


Do you support those free upgrades or not?


I (K2UNK) do...on this "one time" basis.


Uh huh!


I'll ask:


Are those who get the so called "one time" upgrade qualified?



Why would they be "unqualified?" Let's be serious here!
In the incentive license scheme the privileges gained have no bearing
at all to the knowledge base in the sylabus for the license test.
I'd strongly suggest the greater danger to personal or others
life/limb is equally shared by Tech thru Extra as it relates to
permitted VHF/UHF operating at the legal limit.


So you now support no testing whatsoever, since the priveliges have no
bearing? Glad you finally got serious and admitted it.


If you support them, then by definition you are supoorting a reduction


in

the written test requirements for those licenses.

Incomplete statement. Supporting a one-time upgrade doesn't
mean anyone supports "permanent" reductions of the written
requirements. THAT is the critical difference.


Give me a break, Bill!

Are the people getting the "one time upgrade" qualified?



Tell me why they would be unqualified? Unqualified as to doing
what?


You are right Bill. There really is no need for qualification if you
don't want there to be.


Now you might argue that it's only a temporary or one-time reduction,
but it's still a reduction.

It is a ONE time reduction. You and I can disagree about the reason's
to do it, but my support or anyone else's support of the one
time upgrade does NOT mean I or anyone else supports
permanent reductions in requirements.


Are the people qualified?



YES...and if you think otherwise, please tell us what makes them
unqualified and/or in what specific aspect(s) or priviliges
they would be unqualified.



So why make the tests more difficult after the "one shot" upgrade? If
you think a technician is now qualified to be a General, then you should
be consistant.

And since it affects over 400,000 hams, it's not a small matter.

If it goes through it will be forgotten in a couple of years. Why,


because

no one losses any privileges.


Are they qualified?



Broken record here it seems.


You notice?


A few things here.

IF the people getting the free upgrade are qualified then there is *no
reason to increase the requirements ever again*. If you support that you
are just as supportive of a hazing requirement (over-testing) as the
evil Morse code supporters.



I repeat agin, the incentive licensing system bears NO true
relation to the increased privileges granted. The incentive
system as created simply asks for passage of another test
on subject matter of a more difficult content. Knowledge of
that material certainly doesn't lead to any special qualification
that differentiates an Extra operating in the "Extra Only"
spectrum from that of a General operating in the General
spectrum of the same band at the same maximum permitted
power.


If they are not qualified, then you are not only sending them upward
and onward without the proper qualifications, you are doing them a great
disservice.

Quite frankly, I believe that You, Carl, and Mr. W5YI do *indeed*
support permanent changes in the written requirement access to HF.



The ARRL does not take that position at all...except for the "new"
novice which would have greater HF privileges...but with limited
power. Carl and I support the ARRL petition (except for the code test)


The ARRL is being illogical.


And I see you don't deny my assertion.


I refuse to believe that you are all that naive to think that we'll just
do this once



Believe whatever makes you feel good.


Doesn't make me feel good at all!


and no one will notice that suddenly the requirements will go up.



The requirements won't go up...they will stay the same. The only
thing happening here (if FCC approves) is the written test will
be waiver one time for the particular ham going from Tech to General
or Advanced to Extra.


You're playing with my words here.

A person that takes the Technician test, then becomes a General with no
further retesting.

A person that takes a Technician test, then a General test.


Which person has done more? Unless you are suggesting that the future
General test is simply the equivalent of the Tech test.


I remember promises of never accepting reduction in test requirements.
I remember the explicit distancing of personal opinions from NCI. But
here you all are, supporting reductions in the requirements for access
to HF. A pattern forms.



Yea, yea...and with the music to twilight Zone in the
background too.


Believe whatever you want, whatever floats your boat.


Yeah I know, lifes a bitch............

- Mike KB3EIA -

  #269   Report Post  
Old February 15th 04, 03:57 AM
Mark Little
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Mark Little"


writes:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
snip
The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is

false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own

ignorance.

The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.


Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot get

a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.


The question, then, is "what is a similar thing?"

What would be similar to, say:

- having a baby

According to a woman I know, passing a kidney stone. She has done both so is
probably in a good situation to know. I will take that one on faith as
neither seems that appealing.

- running a marathon

"Hitting the wall" and the physical tribulations associated with a marathon
are not limited to running. If you have done other activities that stress
the body, then you are in a position to get the "feel". In my case, that is
just running to the end of the street. ;-)

- playing a musical instrument really well

Anyone who has had to practice long and hard to achieve any hand skill will
know the satisfaction that comes with doing something well. I can't play the
guitar "really well", but I think it is safe to say I have a feel for what
it would be like to be able to do so.

(others are invited to add to the list)

Jumping off a cliff - Never done it, but I have a good feel for what
happens - At the bottom, you go splattt!!!!!

I've worked in commercial/scientific radio communications as well as

being
an Amateur and there is a great deal of similarity between the

operations -
there are licences, there are regulations, there are serious

conversations,
there are "rag chew" conversations, there is problem solving and

information
exchange. These is even a "siblinghood" (is that the PC equivalent of
"brotherhood"? ;-) ) amongest the operators.


There are also big differences.

What exactly are you suggesting is so different in AR that it is

completely
alien from any other activity?


Several things:

1) Hams have a level of freedom pretty much unmatched in other services.

Wide
variety of modes, bands, technologies, and activities. No channelization

or
requirement to use certain types of equipment.


I suggest that you look at the FCC page and search for "experimental
licence". These couple of snippets may be of interest to show its breadth:

"Any person or entity--corporation, individual, etc. that is not a foreign
government or representative of a foreign government may obtain an
experimental license."

"Any frequency allocated to non-Government or Government use in the Table
of Frequency Allocations may be assigned under the Experimental Radio
Service, except frequencies exclusively allocated to the passive services."

Use of non-approved equipment is also permitted with this licence.

2) Hams are almost all self-funded and noncommercial, using their own

equipment
on their own time.


Agreed, but again this is not unique. Plenty of people including CB
operators and pleasure marine radio operators in the same boat (pun
intended).

3) [this it the really big one] Amateur radio is, at its core, radio
communication for its own sake. To other services, radio is but a means to

an
end, but to hams the medium really is a big part of the message. Or to put

it
another way, the ham's journey is as important, if not more important,

than the
destination.


You are incorrect to assert that the medium is not important to others,
especially in the scientific community. Radio propagation research by
definition is interested in the medium.

It is also misleading to imply that the majority of Amateur have the medium
as the primary focus of their activities. The majority of Amateurs use
commercial equipment and spend the majority of their time chin-wagging. From
their conversations, it is obvious that the conversation is more import than
the medium.

This is why certain things from other services don't apply to hams.

The person watching TV usually doesn't care how the signal gets to the

set -
VHF, UHF, terrestrical, satellite, analog, digital, cable, fiber,

whatever. All
the TV viewer cares about is how good the picture, sound and program are.


While the person who watches TV may have no idea how it works, there is a
complete army of people behind that tube that do know how it works and why
it works. If one were to subtract the number of hams who cannot even fix a
simple fault in their commerical rig, the odds would not be much different.

The military communications folks don't care how the messages are carried,

just
so the messages get where they need to be, when they need to be there,

without
the bad guys knowing about them.


I'll bet its fair to say that most Amateurs do not understand how Packet,
PACTOR or even just their rigs work. They simply plug in the boxes and off
they go.

Do you know or care how your email and postings get to and from your

computer?

Actually, I do as I run my own servers.

If you're like 99.99% of the online population, it's not an issue as long

as it
happens.


This is also the case for many Amateurs. Most would not know how their
current rig works and they would neither have the expertise or equipment to
find anything but the most trivial of faults.

Heck, many if not most cellphone users don't even think in terms of

"radio" -
the cellphone to them is a telephone without wires, that's all. (In fact I

have
had people tell me that a cellphone is *not* a radio!)


As I said most Amateurs don't know how packet works or even how their Yaesu
works. Under this defintion, most Amateurs aren't amateurs either. If one
goes into particular instances, I've fixed radios for more than one full
call that could not find that the battery wire had broken. Such anecdotes
may be amusing, but have little value in the big picture.

The radio amateur does radio, for the most part, for purely emotional

reasons.
IOW, because it's fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc. "Radio for

it's
own sake".


Certainly in the area I work, I have seen the scientists knock back very
large amounts of money because it didn't have a research component that they
found "fun, rewarding, challenging, educating, etc."

This is why modes like Morse code, AM voice and Baudot FSK RTTY continue

in use
in amateur radio. Hams like them. They're fun, and they work.


Morse - still used commercially, in the forces and aviation (ident calls).
AM voice - still used in broadcasting.
FSK RTTY - still used as anyone with a communications rig can tell you.

None of these are unique to AR.

There is no doubt that these modes work and "fun" to some people. This is
true even if you are a commercial operator. There are plenty of people who
actually enjoy their work.

BTW, not all hams like these modes. Many people don't like Morse, many also
don't like AM because of its bandwidth, especially in the lower bands and
most Amateurs don't use RTTY with or without the clunking teleprinter.

Ignorance would be to
assume that because one has experience in another service, that all of
his experience in that service directly transfers to amateur radio.


This is more accurate as there are some subtle differences between even

very
similar activities.


And some very big differences. Much of what is done in other radio

services
does not transfer to amateur radio at all. For example, every other radio
service I know of seeks to eliminate the need for a skill in the operation

of
the radio equipment. They think in terms of "user", not "radio operator".

And
given their constraints, it may make sense to do so, because it is usually

less
expensive to buy sophisticated equipment than to pay a skilled radio

operator.

How many Amateurs still neutralise their power amplifiers? No many. Why?
Because they have decided to buy (in most cases not build) more
sophisticated equipment that reduces the skill required to operate the
radio. There is no difference. I don't know too many Amateurs who go to buy
a rig and want the one that is the hardest to use.

But to hams, radio operating skill is the whole point.


Unsustainable if you listen to the bands. Most people do not even comply
with the statuatory requirements for identification, let alone push the
envelope of operating skills.

Are you suggesting that randomly monitoring the Amateur Bands for a few
hours would show a very high level of operating skill? I wouldn't bet the
farm on that one, would you?

As I said, AR is by no means "unique" in what it provides and there are many
people in the radio field, even if they don't hold an AR licence that would
have a "really good feel" of what the Amateur Serice is all about bases on
their other experiences.

It concerns me when Amateurs attempt to tell others that AR is "unique" and
that a non-amateur could never underestand what it is all about, because all
it does is reduce credibilty.


Mark


73 de Jim, N2EY



  #270   Report Post  
Old February 15th 04, 04:43 AM
Mark Little
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"garigue" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s02...

The idea that non-amateurs "not understanding" amateur radio is

false
and little more than an attempt at rationalization of their own

ignorance.


Huh ???? I better get another beer to figure out this one .... just who

is
non-rational here ???? I haven't figured this one out yet. My idea of
amateur radio is a deversion from my daily routine. I do not live by it

or
for it. It is my desire that all involved in the hobby-service-passion

what
ever have a good time in fellowship.


The idea that one who has no experience in using amateur radio has no
real feel for amateur radio is no falsehood.

Nonsense. There is nothing in life that is so insular that one cannot

get
a
"real feel" of it by doing similar things.


OK by your argument then lets say sex ..... but your definition of "real
feel" and what I say is normal may differ.


By taking this tack, even a licenced Amateur would not be able to get a
"real feel" as it is just about 100% certain that they will have different
interests and priorities than you.

I take a less metaphysical approach to "real feel". I mean it is relatively
easy to determine what Amateurs do and there are plenty of related things
(CB & marine radio, electronics kits, regulations, chat rooms, phones, etc)
so that a person could reasonably be expected to be about to judge whether
this would be interesting - before they went to the effort of getting a
licence.

Take care 73 KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa.

Enjoying ham radio for what it is to me ..not what others perceive it or
wish it to be.


As it should be, but that does not prevent unlicenced people from knowing
what the hobby is about. Whether they would enjoy those activities is a
matter of personality, not of holding a licence.

regards,
Mark




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