Dee Flint wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...

K4YZ wrote:


The following is from the ARRL website...I brought over the first
paragraphs as a starting point. The remainder may be read in it's
entirety at www.arrl.org.

My question: Is this even an issue?

Kind of. There is a wide gender gap between men and women in the
engineering fields.



But people consider it more important than it really is. There's a gender
gap in the other direction in many fields.

Very true. I'm a firm believer in that a person should be able to do
what they want career, regardless of (you know the list).

But there are a number of people in this world that seem to think that
the only differences between male and female is culture driven. How much
is culture driven, and how much is fundamental difference is up for
debate. But to deny any fundamental differences would almost certainly
be wrong.


But working in the field, they account for 9 percent of all U.S. engineers

There is a quote that shows up at several sites:

"Women still face gender-specific obstacles when studying and preparing
for careers in engineering and other sciences. There is solid evidence
that mentoring can help address this disparity" said Muller"

http://tinyurl.com/5lm92

Despite the prevalence of the quote, I'm not sure what the disparities
are.



I got into engineering in 1969 and didn't find any obstacles. So I don't
know what the disparities are either.

The only obstacle is having to work with Engineers! ;^) But that
affects everyone considering the field..




Or they can force 'em to go to "tech camp"

http://tinyurl.com/5m82m



Interestingly enough, there are High schools that place emphasis on
science and math. The enrollment in these schools is roughly equal, gender
wise. But the female students tend to gravitate to liberal arts, medicine
and law.

see
http://tinyurl.com/3umlf


Finally, I'm not sure what to think. I've discussed the issue with a woman
engineer I work with. Interestingly enough, she says she KNEW she wanted
to be an engineer from the time she was a kid. No forcing to go to camps.
She thinks the recruitment efforts are not going to work, because one does
not pick engineering like one may pick a major from a school catalog.



I knew I wanted to do something in the math/science/technical field but
didn't home in on engineering specifically until I was a junior in high
school. I tend to agree that the recruitment efforts will have little
impact as if you don't have the inclination you won't pick the field even if
recruited. Or if you do pick it, you won't stay with it.


I think there was some mention in one of the places that I researched
about women who did get an engineering degree, but then got another in
another field such as medicine or legal counseling.

- Mike KB3EIA -

From: Dave Heil I_RULE_ham_radio.Org.Asm on Fri, Mar 18 2005 11:01 am


wrote:

From: Dave Heil on Thurs, Mar 17 2005 4:49 am
wrote:


That's right, Len. There are far fewer blacks than whites in
amateur
radio in the United States. Amateur radio in the U.S. is open to
anyone.

You've "never" asked yourself (or anyone else) WHY that
is?

Why no, Len, I've never asked myself what amateur radio in the U.S. is
open to anyone. Seems reasonable to me.

Tsk. The question was WHY ARE THERE SO FEW BLACKS
(african-americans) IN U.S. AMATEUR RADIO?

Stay with the program.


I've not been tasked with being the official explainer of things, Len.

Tsk. You've "tasked yourself" busy big control person.

You seek "control" of who can post in here and who
cannot. shrug

Amateur radio in the United States is pretty much a white man's hobby.

OK, agreement.

The corollary question is, "WHY IS U.S. AMATEUR RADIO SO
PREDOMINENTLY WHITE."

Let's ask a second question on demographics: WHY IS IS
PREDOMINENTLY MALE?

The majority of the membership is white.

Don't belabor the obvious. Explain WHY.


When I lived in Sierra Leone, the majority of the Sierra Leone League
of
Amateur Radio was black. The minority was white. Go figure.

DOS Tip: "Sierra Leone" is NOT a state of the United
States.

I can write the following:
When I lived in Japan, the majority of the population
was Asian.
That doesn't pertain to the question. [do you understand
the analogue or haven't you taken your Alzheimer's
medications yet?]

It was different in Botswana.

Tsk. "Botswana" isn't a state in the United States.

The question concerns the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and
the hobby activity called amateur radio.


You're starting to remind me of Brian Burke.

You have a serious problem in getting along with anyone
thinking differently than you do.

You have a serious problem in discussing anything that
is opposite to your own opinions.

Discussion of ALL SIDES of any question should be OPEN
and NOT restricted to some little clique of elitists
who self-righteously proclaim their "ownership" of some
activity.

Both Brian and I have opinions OPPOSITE to yours...yet
you feel compelled (perhaps obsessed) with a need to
attempt denigration and/or defamation of us because
we (and many others who appear from time to time) have
opinions differing from yours.

See above, little wizended Lennie.

Tsk. Attempts at name-calling. Improperly spelled.

Try to concentrate on the SUBJECT instead of
name-calling those with opposite opinions.

The USA does NOT include Sierra Leone nor does it
include Botswana. It includes Wheeling, West
Virginia, but Wheeling is just one city out of
thousands in the USA.


I didn't write that I'm upset.

Tsk. You always SEEM so upset when encountering any
opposite opinions.


I got with the program starting in 1963.

WHAT "program?"

That can't be amateur radio. U.S. amateur radio does
not allow broadcasting. [see another thread largely
of name-calling by anonymous geeks getting their jollies
off]

Tsk. "Get with the program" is a colloquial EXPRESSION,
common in American English. :-)

Tsk, tsk. In 1963 I was working (in the USA) designing
electronics for the Grumman Intruder radar pre-flight
check-out set (Ku-band, portable battery-powered). Not
a hobby and very much involved with microwave radio.

Well, this discussion has you.

"Has you" what? Try completing a sentence properly.


Nobody may force me to like you.

Not a requirement, self-righteous self-professed
ruler of ham.

Tsk. You are going to have to LIVE with the fact
that many viewing your arrogant postings in here
do NOT "like you."

You MUST live with the fact that controversial subject
discussion does NOT require capitulation to the
opinions of yours...not even when you are an extremist
in self-righteousness.

[supposedly the State Department does that all the
time...called "diplomacy," something that you've NOT
displayed in any posting in here]

The SUBJECT is
(or should be) the discussion point...NOT the
person or personality of whover YOU disagree with.

Please try to remember that.

I try to remember that, even when some ex-government
employees use phrases like "little wizended lennie"
as a response to me.

U.S. amateur radio was NOT created especially for
Dave Heil to enjoy.

I figured that was the case when I became interested.

Why did you lose that realization?


Unlike you, I have a stake in amateur radio.

A wooden one?

You feel you MUST control what all newcomers are
required to do to obtain an amateur radio license.
Why is that? What compells you to attempt acting
like you are "authority" on licensing?

There is only ONE authority on licensing radio
amateurs in the USA and that is the FCC. You are
NOT a member of the FCC.


Neither are you an FCC Commissioner or staffer.

Tsk. You manufacture a strawman again. I've never
claimed to control radio licensing in the USA.

Since Dave Heil is NOT a member of the FCC, he does
not have ANY authority on radio amateur licensing
matters in the USA. [Sierra Leone and Botswana are
not in the USA]

This week you've told us that you are not
interested in becoming a radio amateur.

Irrelevant. Next week I may change my mind. [next
week I may be in a foreign country...such as
Sierra Leone or Botswana... :-) ]

Becoming a LICENSED radio amateur carries with it NO
requirements of adopting a strict "life style" of
amateurism or any obeyance of some old "code" of
conduct published by a membership organization. One
does NOT need to "take vows" or "swear an oath" to
uphold some artificial traditions, jargon, patois,
standards and practices of older times. Amateur
radio is a de facto HOBBY. [it is NOT de jure a
"hobby" in regulations but that is just legislative
language cum political speak to satisfy a minority
of over-inflated traditionalist amateur lifestylers]

I am a professional in radio-electronics and have
been one since 1952. I am also a hobbyist in many
different phases of radio-electronics and have been
so involved since 1947. I have been most fortunate
to do work in many different areas of electronics and
radio and have a personal fascination with nearly all
aspects of that broad technological field.

You insist on defining "radio" as ONLY that of radio
amateurism...as YOU know it. Sorry, that isn't
acceptible to the entirety of the radio-electronics
world. Neither does anyone HAVE to "demonstrate any
interest" by becoming a LICENSED radio amateur FIRST.



How arrogant is the posturing of the type of personality which is
uninvolved in an avocation in which he plays no part as a participant
or
regulator? Talk about the need to control...

Tsk. The control-freak is angry at being called out
on how he appears to all others? That is you, Dave
Heil.

The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution states that
all U.S. citizens have the RIGHT to petition their
government for the redress of grievances. That is NOT
"posturing." It extends to EVERY law, regulation made
by the U.S. government.

The FCC regulates U.S. amateur radio. The FCC is the
final authority on what is required to obtain an amateur
radio license. The ARRL has NO such authority. Dave
Heil has NO such authority...but Dave Heil postures and
preens AS IF he did. Tsk, tsk.


You aren't a participant in amateur radio. You have no stake in it.
You currently claim that you do not desire to become a participant.
Yet
you attempt controlling of amateur radio.

Tsk, tsk. Advocacy in eliminating the morse code test
for any amateur radio license is "CONTROL?!?" :-)

Sorry, control-freak Dave Heil, that's simply a REQUEST
of a citizen, similar to tens of thousands of other
citizens who REQUEST the same thing. Not only is the
code test requirement old and out-dated, the FCC has
stated as far back as 1990 that the code test does not
matter to their purpose in determining whether any
prospective amateur should be granted a license.

NOWHERE in the various Parts of Title 47 C.F.R. is there
any "requirement" to "post bans" or submit any oath of
interest or lifetime vow in becoming "a participant"
through authorized (by the FCC) licensing. Neither is
there some strange perversion of the First Amendment
that allows ONLY "participating amateurs" to rule on
regulations!


You wish to shape it through
having regulations relating to morse code testing and the instituting
of
a minimum age requirement for licening.

INCORRECT. I've not pursued any "minimum age requirement"
in U.S. amateur radio since making that SUGGESTION to the
FCC in January, 1999, on the LAST page of a 14-page
Comment on docket 98-143 (see date of 13 January 1999 in
the FCC ECFS on that docket).

Tsk. A number of middle-aged PCTA extras keep bringing
that up and trying to imply it is something like Treason
Against The State! I've dropped that request, haven't
followed it through with REAL authorities, yet some
self-appointed "guardians of their turf" insist that I
am "constantly advocating age requirements!" :-)

Yes, I advocate an elimination of the morse code test.

Such will NOT affect ANY who are ALREADY LICENSED in
U.S. amateur radio! It does NOT affect their ability
to use what they ALREADY HAVE.


No, it isn't a CLUB at all, Leonard H. It is open to all races and
any
of the several genders.

Tsk. You FAIL to recognize the difference between
de facto from de jure.

There is NO discrimination on age or gender in the
regulations of U.S. amateur radio in Title 47 C.F.R.
[that's de jure]

There is an OBVIOUS discrimination in race throughout
the United States in regards to amateur radio
licensing...against blacks (african-americans).
[that's de facto] Observation, casual to studied,
of all amateur radio hobbyist photographs in
amateur publications of the last half century will
demonstrate that de facto condition.

There is a milder "discrimination" (of a sort) against
females in LICENSED amateur radio. That's also been
OBVIOUS but hasn't been much publicized since Harker's
informal study presented on the ARRL website.

Is it your view that it is my personal responsibility to recruit
blacks
into amateur radio whether they care to participate or not, Lennie
Anderson?

Tsk. I just asked a question. Can you EXPLAIN the
de facto condition of U.S. amateur radio being a
WHITE MAN'S CLUB?


What does your comment have to do with my being appointed by you to
recruit minorities, Lennie Anderson?

Well, DAVIE Heil, I've NEVER taken on some self-
appointed "authority" to "tell you what to do!"

[I cannot perform miracles...]

Considering your manner of "recruiting" ANYONE, you
are rather deficient in such a "recruiting" task.

Amateur radio is administered by the Federal Government.

Tsk. It is REGULATED by the federal government.


Minorities may participate. Participation isn't
mandatory.

Tsk, Tsk, TSK! DAVIE Heil has insisted and insisted
that ONLY those who "participate" in rule-making of
amateur radio MUST ALREADY have an amateur radio
license!

DAVIE Heil is acting the hypocrite.


Your de facto WHITE MEN'S CLUB isn't de fact at all.

[baaaad imitation of Amos or Andy... :-) ]

Tsk. You keep mixing up "de facto" with "de jure."

Those differences have been explained to you. Try
to keep up with your self-education.

Even you, could be a participant, little wizened Lennie.

Tsk. More of the "diplomatic charm" picked up while
"living in Sierra Leone or Botswana?" :-)


I'm sure that in retrospect, it seems idiotic to you now. I'll bet
you
wish you'd never made it.

No problem to me. I may say the same thing again. Or,
I may not. :-)

I'll be more specific. I do NOT intend to do so
this week. :-)


Around here, a man is only as good as his word.

"Around there" is NOT the center of the universe nor
of any "center of ethical/moral virtue." :-)

Maybe it is different out there on the left coast.

Where is this "left coast?" :-)

I live in the southwestern part of the contiguous
United States of America.

In fact, the state of California is, by far, the
most populous state in the union.

If you try for more of such disparaging geographic
comments, I'd say you were so unable to reply
that you've resorted to self-appointed BIGOTRY on
a personal insult level. Tsk, tsk, tsk.


Little wizened Lennie loves to uses words like "denigration". Is it
denigration to point out that you made your well known "Extra right
out
of the box" claim? Is it denigration to point to one of your factual
errors?

Tsk. More "diplomatic charm" with the phrase "little
wizened Lennie?" :-)

"Well known claim?" :-)

No problem to me. I may say the same thing again. Or
not.

I've taken and passed MANY "tests" in my career of a
half century in radio-electronics. MOST of them were
much more difficult than ANY amateur radio "exam"
given since 1952. I've tested, operated, DESIGNED
radio equipment of equal and FAR-more-complex nature
than amateur radio equipment. No problem to me to
take a little hobby-radio test. I just don't choose
to do so this week. :-)

I'm in a computer network newsgroup. That is NOT
amateur radio activity. No license is required. Yet
DAVIE Heil (who likes to beat up on "little wizened"
people - of his imagination) thinks I MUST have an
amateur radio license to be IN this newsgroup! :-)

You're adding two and two and coming up with the wrong answer. Bill
Sohl's opinions often differ from mine. I don't dislike Bill Sohl.

Did Bill Sohl participate in this thread? :-)

I do dislike you, little old piranha.

TS. :-)

If you mean
that I've made you the object of ridicule and sarcasm, that'd be
correct.

Tsk. Incorrect. You've ATTEMPTED to do so. :-)

Sorry, it hasn't worked yet. Better luck in the future.

Your grating, pompous manner makes you an inviting target.

Awwwwww...get the great "DAVIE" all upset again? :-)


Tsk. You're still an inviting target for ridicule and sarcasm.

No problem. I expected that when I first began posting
in here. :-)

Tsk. The "good ol' boys" of the WHITE MAN'S CLUB really
DO get all upset and ornery when their precious tree
house is invaded. :-)


What was the subject again, Len?

"Demographics in U.S. amateur radio."

Can't you CONCETRATE on SUBJECTS anymore?

Was it something about my liking worms?

Ah! Now it is clear on what YOU thought was the subject!

"Davie, Davie Hi-el...king of the wild ham bands!"

It seems to be all about Dave and his "battle" with
opponents (who do not love and respect his greatness).
As self-appointed "guardian" of all that is "holy"
in ham radio (i.e., whatever Dave likes), he must do
his "combat veteran" thing and FIGHT anything that
threatens CHANGE to his radio lifestyle! :-)

Understood. :-)

wrote:

From: Dave Heil I_RULE_ham_radio.Org.Asm on Fri, Mar 18 2005 11:01 am

wrote:

From: Dave Heil on Thurs, Mar 17 2005 4:49 am
wrote:


That's right, Len. There are far fewer blacks than whites in
amateur
radio in the United States. Amateur radio in the U.S. is open to
anyone.

You've "never" asked yourself (or anyone else) WHY that
is?

Why no, Len, I've never asked myself what amateur radio in the U.S. is
open to anyone. Seems reasonable to me.

Tsk. The question was WHY ARE THERE SO FEW BLACKS
(african-americans) IN U.S. AMATEUR RADIO?

Oh, you know have a different question! Your original question, "You've
'never' asked yourself (or anyone else) WHY that is?" followed my
statement, "Amateur radio in the U.S. is open to anyone".

My response to your new question is that I don't know and don't much
care.

Stay with the program.

I've been with the program for over 41 years.

I've not been tasked with being the official explainer of things, Len.

Tsk. You've "tasked yourself" busy big control person.

Nope. I'd surely known if I'd tasked myself with something.

You seek "control" of who can post in here and who
cannot. shrug

How would that be. Did I ever tell you to "Shut up, you little
feldwebel)? You've done that to me. Have I told you to go ELSEWHERE?
You've done that to me. Which one of us is more likely to be seen as
one you attempts to control who can post here?

Amateur radio in the United States is pretty much a white man's hobby.

OK, agreement.

The corollary question is, "WHY IS U.S. AMATEUR RADIO SO
PREDOMINENTLY WHITE."

Let's ask a second question on demographics: WHY IS IS
PREDOMINENTLY MALE?

Why not drop the ARRL a line? Surely someone there might have some
insight and be able to enlighten you.

The majority of the membership is white.

Don't belabor the obvious. Explain WHY.

You've snipped that portion that would reveal that I was writing of a
local amateur radio club. I stated that West Virginia has a black
population of only 3%. They aren't all radio amateurs and don't all
live in this area. I thought you'd be able to make the connection.

When I lived in Sierra Leone, the majority of the Sierra Leone League
of
Amateur Radio was black. The minority was white. Go figure.

DOS Tip: "Sierra Leone" is NOT a state of the United
States.

Here's a tip for you: I never stated that it was.

I can write the following:
When I lived in Japan, the majority of the population
was Asian.

Well, Len, why haven't you done something about it?

That doesn't pertain to the question. [do you understand
the analogue or haven't you taken your Alzheimer's
medications yet?]

I don't take any such medication. Do you?

It was different in Botswana.

Tsk. "Botswana" isn't a state in the United States.

I didn't write that it was.

The question concerns the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and
the hobby activity called amateur radio.

What is the question again?

You're starting to remind me of Brian Burke.

You have a serious problem in getting along with anyone
thinking differently than you do.

Your myriad postings here reveals that would be true of you.

You have a serious problem in discussing anything that
is opposite to your own opinions.

Your own record here reveals that is true of you.

Discussion of ALL SIDES of any question should be OPEN
and NOT restricted to some little clique of elitists
who self-righteously proclaim their "ownership" of some
activity.

Discussion has never been restricted here. Make your claims and wait
for the fallout.

Both Brian and I have opinions OPPOSITE to yours...yet
you feel compelled (perhaps obsessed) with a need to
attempt denigration and/or defamation of us because
we (and many others who appear from time to time) have
opinions differing from yours.

You denigrate and defame, Len. On what basis do you make your decisions
about who to denigrate and defame?

See above, little wizended Lennie.

Tsk. Attempts at name-calling. Improperly spelled.

Awwww, shucks. You snipped your comment where you went into the name
calling routine. I cranked it up when you started. You'll note that is
when I've always done it--in reponse to name calling from you.

Try to concentrate on the SUBJECT instead of
name-calling those with opposite opinions.

Why not take a couple of tablespoons of your own medicine. If it works
for you, then recommend it to others.

The USA does NOT include Sierra Leone nor does it
include Botswana. It includes Wheeling, West
Virginia, but Wheeling is just one city out of
thousands in the USA.

That's a masterful statement of the obvious, Leonard. Well done!

I didn't write that I'm upset.

Tsk. You always SEEM so upset when encountering any
opposite opinions.

Why does is seem so? Do I begin typing in all capital letters?

I got with the program starting in 1963.

WHAT "program?"

To which program did you refer?

That can't be amateur radio. U.S. amateur radio does
not allow broadcasting. [see another thread largely
of name-calling by anonymous geeks getting their jollies
off]

I wrote nothing of broadcasting. I don't post anonymously.

Tsk. "Get with the program" is a colloquial EXPRESSION,
common in American English. :-)

There's another bold statement of the obvious. You're on a roll today
:-)

Tsk, tsk. In 1963 I was working (in the USA) designing
electronics for the Grumman Intruder radar pre-flight
check-out set (Ku-band, portable battery-powered). Not
a hobby and very much involved with microwave radio.

What's the "Tsk, tsk" for? In 1963 I moved from Hinton to Oak Hill,
West Virginia. I completed the ninth grade and began the tenth grade.
I began studying the guitar and passed my Novic Class amateur radio
license exam. I was awarded the Golden Horseshoe for being a top
student of West Virginia history. I had a paper route and paid for my
first amateur receiver through it. It's nice when we can share our
memories, isn't it, Len?

Well, this discussion has you.

"Has you" what? Try completing a sentence properly.

I hate to disagree with a "PROFESSIONAL" but all the parts of a sentence
are there.

Nobody may force me to like you.

Not a requirement, self-righteous self-professed
ruler of ham.

That's my point. It isn't a requirement.

Tsk. You are going to have to LIVE with the fact
that many viewing your arrogant postings in here
do NOT "like you."

Do you wish to take another informal poll? The last one didn't work
out very well for you.

You MUST live with the fact that controversial subject
discussion does NOT require capitulation to the
opinions of yours...not even when you are an extremist
in self-righteousness.

To heck with the tablespoon, Len. Here, just take a swig from your
medicine bottle.

[supposedly the State Department does that all the
time...called "diplomacy," something that you've NOT
displayed in any posting in here]

I always treat bullying thugs like bullying thugs. You're a bullying
thug.

The SUBJECT is
(or should be) the discussion point...NOT the
person or personality of whover YOU disagree with.

Please try to remember that.

I try to remember that, even when some ex-government
employees use phrases like "little wizended lennie"
as a response to me.

Go back and read your own stuff. Check what you wrote about me in the
lines preceding my use of that term. If when I was in the employ of the
Department of State and you'd walked into an embassy, I'd have been
courteous to you. I am under no such constraints now. You're a churl.
I'll treat you like a churl.

U.S. amateur radio was NOT created especially for
Dave Heil to enjoy.

I figured that was the case when I became interested.

Why did you lose that realization?

I never have. If and when you enter amateur radio, you'll likely come
to a similar conclusion.

Unlike you, I have a stake in amateur radio.

A wooden one?

Wooden, PVC, metal--it is not something you have.

You feel you MUST control what all newcomers are
required to do to obtain an amateur radio license.

Time for another big swig of your own medicine, Len. Your statement
reflects exactly what you are attempting. You aren't involved in
amateur radio at all.

Why is that? What compells you to attempt acting
like you are "authority" on licensing?

More of your medicine, Len? What compels (not compells) you to act like
you are an authority on how amateur radio should be regulated? After
all, you aren't involved in amateur radio.

There is only ONE authority on licensing radio
amateurs in the USA and that is the FCC. You are
NOT a member of the FCC.

You are NOT a radio amateur. You are NOT with the FCC (the ONE
authority on licensing radio amateurs in the U.S.A.). You continue your
twenty year quest to remove morse code testing in an endeavor in which
you play no part. You've lobbied for a minimum age in that same
endeavor.

Neither are you an FCC Commissioner or staffer.

Tsk. You manufacture a strawman again. I've never
claimed to control radio licensing in the USA.

If my statement is a straw man (not strawman), so was yours. Did you
notice the "neither" in my statement. It is a dead giveaway about the
portion you snipped.

Since Dave Heil is NOT a member of the FCC, he does
not have ANY authority on radio amateur licensing
matters in the USA.

Since Leonard H. Anderson is NOT a member of the FCC, he has NO
authority in radio amateur licensing.

[Sierra Leone and Botswana are
not in the USA]

That's truly masterful, Leonard.

This week you've told us that you are not
interested in becoming a radio amateur.

Irrelevant. Next week I may change my mind.

Masterful, Len. How quickly you saw my point!

[next week I may be in a foreign country...such as
Sierra Leone or Botswana... :-) ]

You might as well go now, while you still have the time.

Becoming a LICENSED radio amateur carries with it NO
requirements of adopting a strict "life style" of
amateurism or any obeyance of some old "code" of
conduct published by a membership organization. One
does NOT need to "take vows" or "swear an oath" to
uphold some artificial traditions, jargon, patois,
standards and practices of older times. Amateur
radio is a de facto HOBBY. [it is NOT de jure a
"hobby" in regulations but that is just legislative
language cum political speak to satisfy a minority
of over-inflated traditionalist amateur lifestylers]

You can stow it now, Leonard. This week you aren't interested,
remember?

I am a professional in radio-electronics and have
been one since 1952.

Irrelevant.

I am also a hobbyist in many
different phases of radio-electronics and have been
so involved since 1947. I have been most fortunate
to do work in many different areas of electronics and
radio and have a personal fascination with nearly all
aspects of that broad technological field.

More irrelevance.

You insist on defining "radio" as ONLY that of radio
amateurism...as YOU know it.

I've never defined "radio" here ever. You lie.

Sorry, that isn't
acceptible to the entirety of the radio-electronics
world.

You don't speak for the rest of the radio world any more than you speak
for radio amateurs. You're simply a self-appointed advocate for change
in something in which you play no part. In short, you're another
California Crackpot.

Neither does anyone HAVE to "demonstrate any
interest" by becoming a LICENSED radio amateur FIRST.

FIRST? In all of your several decades of "interest" in amateur radio,
you've never taken the FIRST step of doing anything at all about it.
You're still on the outside. You're still not a player. You're still
pacing the sidelines.

How arrogant is the posturing of the type of personality which is
uninvolved in an avocation in which he plays no part as a participant
or
regulator? Talk about the need to control...

Tsk. The control-freak is angry at being called out
on how he appears to all others? That is you, Dave
Heil.

That simply can't be. I am a participant. You are irrelevant to
amateur radio.

The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution states that
all U.S. citizens have the RIGHT to petition their
government for the redress of grievances. That is NOT
"posturing." It extends to EVERY law, regulation made
by the U.S. government.

You've petitioned. Now what?

The FCC regulates U.S. amateur radio. The FCC is the
final authority on what is required to obtain an amateur
radio license. The ARRL has NO such authority. Dave
Heil has NO such authority...but Dave Heil postures and
preens AS IF he did. Tsk, tsk.

Tsk, tsk, indeed. Come down off your soapbox, Leonard. The ARRL has
input. Sheer numbers and a long history play a part. If you don't like
it, set up your own lobbying group.

You aren't a participant in amateur radio. You have no stake in it.
You currently claim that you do not desire to become a participant.
Yet
you attempt controlling of amateur radio.

Tsk, tsk. Advocacy in eliminating the morse code test
for any amateur radio license is "CONTROL?!?" :-)

Yes, it is an attempt to control the regulation of something in which
you are not involved.

Sorry, control-freak Dave Heil, that's simply a REQUEST
of a citizen, similar to tens of thousands of other
citizens who REQUEST the same thing.

You've requested. Now what?

Not only is the
code test requirement old and out-dated, the FCC has
stated as far back as 1990 that the code test does not
matter to their purpose in determining whether any
prospective amateur should be granted a license.

The morse code is widely used in amateur radio. The FCC said it would
await a consensus of radio amateurs on the testing issue. It appears
they've left you out.

You wish to shape it through
having regulations relating to morse code testing and the instituting
of
a minimum age requirement for licening.

INCORRECT. I've not pursued any "minimum age requirement"
in U.S. amateur radio since making that SUGGESTION to the
FCC in January, 1999, on the LAST page of a 14-page
Comment on docket 98-143 (see date of 13 January 1999 in
the FCC ECFS on that docket).

What's to pursue? You wrote it. You submitted it. You acted on your
belief, despite the lack of evidence that there had ever been a problem
with licensed children not obeying the rules.

Tsk. A number of middle-aged PCTA extras keep bringing
that up and trying to imply it is something like Treason
Against The State!

I've never thought it treasonous, only stupid and short sighted.

I've dropped that request, haven't
followed it through with REAL authorities, yet some
self-appointed "guardians of their turf" insist that I
am "constantly advocating age requirements!" :-)

You can't drop it. It was written and submitted.

Yes, I advocate an elimination of the morse code test.

Such will NOT affect ANY who are ALREADY LICENSED in
U.S. amateur radio! It does NOT affect their ability
to use what they ALREADY HAVE.

It has the potential to change the demographics. That effects every
current HF licensee. Sorry, your argument doesn't hold water.

No, it isn't a CLUB at all, Leonard H. It is open to all races and
any
of the several genders.

Tsk. You FAIL to recognize the difference between
de facto from de jure.

There is NO discrimination on age or gender in the
regulations of U.S. amateur radio in Title 47 C.F.R.
[that's de jure]

There is an OBVIOUS discrimination in race throughout
the United States in regards to amateur radio
licensing...against blacks (african-americans).
[that's de facto] Observation, casual to studied,
of all amateur radio hobbyist photographs in
amateur publications of the last half century will
demonstrate that de facto condition.

I implore you to write your senators, your congressman, the FCC and make
a case. Laughter is good for the soul.

There is a milder "discrimination" (of a sort) against
females in LICENSED amateur radio. That's also been
OBVIOUS but hasn't been much publicized since Harker's
informal study presented on the ARRL website.

As above, I urge you to write, e-mail or call your elected
representatives and to contact the FCC. You might even want to involve
the editor of your newspaper.

Is it your view that it is my personal responsibility to recruit
blacks
into amateur radio whether they care to participate or not, Lennie
Anderson?

Tsk. I just asked a question.

Tsk. You implied that I have an obligation to call for changes.

Can you EXPLAIN the
de facto condition of U.S. amateur radio being a
WHITE MAN'S CLUB?

I might take a stab at it if you can explain why "EXPLAIN" and "WHITE
MAN'S CLUB" are capitalized?

What does your comment have to do with my being appointed by you to
recruit minorities, Lennie Anderson?

Well, DAVIE Heil, I've NEVER taken on some self-
appointed "authority" to "tell you what to do!"

You just did, Lennie The Uninvolved.

[I cannot perform miracles...]

No kidding.

Considering your manner of "recruiting" ANYONE, you
are rather deficient in such a "recruiting" task.

How many folks have you gotten into amateur radio, Len?

Amateur radio is administered by the Federal Government.

Tsk. It is REGULATED by the federal government.

What part didn't you understand?

Minorities may participate. Participation isn't
mandatory.

Tsk, Tsk, TSK! DAVIE Heil has insisted and insisted
that ONLY those who "participate" in rule-making of
amateur radio MUST ALREADY have an amateur radio
license!

Oh, perhaps you meant that uninvolved minorities should be regulating
amateur radio. I see.

DAVIE Heil is acting the hypocrite.

LENNIE Anderson, face painted blue, is howling at the moon.

Your de facto WHITE MEN'S CLUB isn't de fact at all.

[baaaad imitation of Amos or Andy... :-) ]

Tsk. You keep mixing up "de facto" with "de jure."

Why, did you mean to write "de jure WHITE MEN'S CLUB"?

Those differences have been explained to you. Try
to keep up with your self-education.

When you write, "de facto" I can only believe that you mean "de facto".
If you mean "de jure", you'll have to so state.

Even you, could be a participant, little wizened Lennie.

Tsk. More of the "diplomatic charm" picked up while
"living in Sierra Leone or Botswana?" :-)

....just another tweak of your nose in response to your (snipped)
rudeness.

I'm sure that in retrospect, it seems idiotic to you now. I'll bet
you
wish you'd never made it.

No problem to me. I may say the same thing again. Or,
I may not. :-)

If you do, I bet you'll word it more carefully. :-)

I'll be more specific. I do NOT intend to do so
this week. :-)

That can change by next week. :-)

Around here, a man is only as good as his word.

"Around there" is NOT the center of the universe nor
of any "center of ethical/moral virtue." :-)

If you mean that I live in an area where there are ethical/moral
virtures, you are correct. :-)

Maybe it is different out there on the left coast.

Where is this "left coast?" :-)

....the area you inhabit.

I live in the southwestern part of the contiguous
United States of America.

Either of two events could change that. One involves an earthquake of
epic proportions.

In fact, the state of California is, by far, the
most populous state in the union.

If you'd like to believe that is a good thing, fine.

If you try for more of such disparaging geographic
comments, I'd say you were so unable to reply
that you've resorted to self-appointed BIGOTRY on
a personal insult level. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

You'd say any number of things. Some of them will be based in fact.

Little wizened Lennie loves to uses words like "denigration". Is it
denigration to point out that you made your well known "Extra right
out
of the box" claim? Is it denigration to point to one of your factual
errors?

Tsk. More "diplomatic charm" with the phrase "little
wizened Lennie?" :-)

Quit snipping your own insulting terms or I shall find it necessary to
repost with the snipped portions added.

"Well known claim?" :-)

Yes, your claim to the "Extra right out of the box" is as well known as
your "sphincter post" and N2EY's superb profile of your likely actions.

No problem to me. I may say the same thing again. Or
not.

You might as well. It'd be hard for you to look any worse.

I've taken and passed MANY "tests" in my career of a
half century in radio-electronics. MOST of them were
much more difficult than ANY amateur radio "exam"
given since 1952. I've tested, operated, DESIGNED
radio equipment of equal and FAR-more-complex nature
than amateur radio equipment.

You've no doubt tested, operated and DESIGNED radio equipment of far
more simple design too. I'm happy that the test taking went well for
you. You'll still need to pass some additional exams if you want to play
in the amateur radio playground.

No problem to me to
take a little hobby-radio test. I just don't choose
to do so this week. :-)

It'll be far easier now that the morse exam is down to that 5 wpm level.
Don't underestimate that Extra exam or the others you'll need to take to
get to that level.

I'm in a computer network newsgroup. That is NOT
amateur radio activity. No license is required. Yet
DAVIE Heil (who likes to beat up on "little wizened"
people - of his imagination) thinks I MUST have an
amateur radio license to be IN this newsgroup! :-)

Do they have a nationally recognized computer network license,
little old piranha?

You're adding two and two and coming up with the wrong answer. Bill
Sohl's opinions often differ from mine. I don't dislike Bill Sohl.

Did Bill Sohl participate in this thread? :-)

does it matter? Were you being thread-specific?

I do dislike you, little old piranha.

TS. :-)

If you mean
that I've made you the object of ridicule and sarcasm, that'd be
correct.

Tsk. Incorrect. You've ATTEMPTED to do so. :-)

It has been done by me and quite a number of others.

Sorry, it hasn't worked yet.

You just can't tell the diff.

Better luck in the future.

Why, thank you.

Your grating, pompous manner makes you an inviting target.

Awwwwww...get the great "DAVIE" all upset again? :-)

I'm not upset, Leona.

Tsk. You're still an inviting target for ridicule and sarcasm.

No problem. I expected that when I first began posting
in here. :-)

Know thine own self.

Tsk. The "good ol' boys" of the WHITE MAN'S CLUB really
DO get all upset and ornery when their precious tree
house is invaded. :-)

Are you a person of color, Leonard?

What was the subject again, Len?

"Demographics in U.S. amateur radio."

Can't you CONCETRATE on SUBJECTS anymore?

You'd wandered. I was caught up in your past test taking.

Was it something about my liking worms?

Ah! Now it is clear on what YOU thought was the subject!

"Davie, Davie Hi-el...king of the wild ham bands!"

It seems to be all about Dave and his "battle" with
opponents (who do not love and respect his greatness).
As self-appointed "guardian" of all that is "holy"
in ham radio (i.e., whatever Dave likes), he must do
his "combat veteran" thing and FIGHT anything that
threatens CHANGE to his radio lifestyle! :-)

Understood. :-)

What are you prattling about?

Dave K8MN

wrote:
From: Dave Heil on Thurs, Mar 17 2005 4:49 am

wrote:

Now we need Len Anderson to chime in with something about how
amateur radio is predominately "white".


I'm not Len, but it is.

True enough, Alun, just check out the ham photos in
the last half-century's ham publications.

No "profiling" qualifications needed...

That's right, Len. There are far fewer blacks than whites in
amateur
radio in the United States. Amateur radio in the U.S. is open to
anyone.

You've "never" asked yourself (or anyone else) WHY that
is?

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Why does he need to? Was it his obligation to do so? Is it ANY
persons obligation to do so?

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Mr. "equal opportunity" Heil with all
the sarcastic arrogance he can muster DOES NOT EXPLAIN
WHY U.S. amateur radio is essentially a white man's
"club." Oh, my, how hypocritical can you get?

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

What's to explain?

Why don't YOU explain, Lennie...?!?! Tell us of all those hooded
guards standing at VE sessions to keep the unwashed masses at bay.

Oh...I forgot...You've never BEEN to a VE session...My bust.

Whilst it's hard to tell someone's race on air, it also seems
that

On "CW" noboby can tell their gender.

That maybe explains why WOMEN's tees are so "cool!" :-)

Because when using CW, nobody can tell your gender? Makes as much
sense
as anything else you've written, I suppose.

Are you THAT brain-dead or living-in-fantasy while
listening to "CW" that you CAN tell gender of the
sender?!?

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Lennie...YOU are the one alleging some sort of conspiracy to keep
women and minorities out of Amateur Radio.

Dave clearly and correctly cited that CW is a field leveller.

It is.

What do you do on hearing that the other party is
female, raise the beep pitch with your BFO knob?!?

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

That was just lame.

Jay-suss...big badass dave is hard-put to get
anything to attempt humiliation and denigration
of his "opponents." Tsk, tsk.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Not as "hard-put" as you were to try and make a point out of that,
Lennie.

Now you've really opened up a can of worms, Dave.

Big badass dave LIKES worms, Alun. :-)

Yes, I do, but I'm not awfully fond of you.

AWWWWWW...poor lil davie is ALL UPSET because he
isn't "loved and respected?!?" He wanna "take it
out" on others?

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Seems the one taking things out on others is you, Lennie.

Seven years worth.

Poor guy is looking for love in all the wrong
places. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

I bet he's finding it, though.

How's the "Little Lady" these days, Lennie? Keeping the Geritol
hidden from her?

GET WITH THE PROGRAM. A discussion of anything
controversial WILL have all sorts of people "you
don't like."

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Funny...with a very small exception...(You, Brain, your anonymous
alter egos), there are no really unlikeable folks here, even those with
"differing opinions".

And that "small exception" are those who have been repeatedly
caught up in lies, deceit and mistruth.

Sunnuvagun! [as Hans likes to say...:-) ]

Indeed.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Here's a newsflash, sweetums, it is NOT necessary
to "like someone" about anything. The SUBJECT is
(or should be) the discussion point...NOT the
person or personality of whover YOU disagree with.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

And people CAN be "agreeable" even when they disagree on a
subject. Happens ever day...EXCEPT with people who insist on
analogizing thier "opponents" to the Nazis, etc. etc. etc.

U.S. amateur radio was NOT created especially for
Dave Heil to enjoy. Dave Heil has NO more control
over ham radio than I do...believe it or not!

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Actually, he has a far greater control over it.

That's because Dave has a few things you DON'T...Like reputable
character, practical experience, and peer respect.

Did I mention practical experience...?!?!

Dave Heil is NOT an FCC commissioner or staffer,
does NOT "rule" anything but lines on paper pads.
All of Dave Heil's "tenure" in amateur radio
involves keeping his amateur license renewed.
All the rest is arrogant posturing of the type of
personality that needs to "control" everyone else.
Dave Heil tries to "control" others by attempts at
humiliation and denigration, then gets soooooooooo
upset when he gets the same (and more) tossed right
back in his face. Poor baby...and he thought he
was "in control." Tsk, tsk, tsk.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Someone here loses control, alright...It's not Dave.

Does Dave Heil want a nice ARRL-south website where
all can congratulate him on his long "career" as an
amateur, rigidly following the league rulebook? No
problem...easy thing to do ELSEWHERE. Posture and
preen about yourself all you want (and you do so
seem to want that) ELSEWHERE. U.S. amateur radio
is NOT under YOUR control and won't be. If you want
to pretend YOU control it, go ELSEWHERE.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Ahhhhhhh yes...More "not-so-thinly veiled" attempts by Lennie to
once again assume role of moderator/NGTC.....News Group Traffic Cop.

Meanwhile, the demographics on U.S. amateur radio
show de facto that it is a WHITE MEN'S CLUB. If Davie
wanna be "equal opportunity for all" (like he puts on
to me), then Davie Heil ought to for damn sure go out
and DO something about that. [the rest of the world
does not exist to serve Davie Heil...or any PCTA]
Posturing a lot of bull**** about "...it's open to all"
may be the SPIN that all flag-waving, arrogant WHITE
extras wanna rave about, but it's clearly NOT the
case. It hasn't been the case for half a century.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

And for the last 32 1/2 years that I have been a licensed Amateur,
(that's to say from my scope-of-experience) that there is not a single
barrier to ANY person obtaining a license should he/she choose.

Davie Heil will NOT address the de facto WHITE MEN'S
CLUB other than to misdirect into personal denigration
against another. To me is going to come back with that
idiotic "promise" that I allegedly made...about five
years ago. Tsk, tsk. I NEVER took any "oath" or
"vows" that I would do such a thing. Got that, Davie?
NO "oaths," "vows," or promises.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

No "allegedly" to it.

You said you'd do it.

You never did...Lot's of lame excuses and wordsmithing to get
around it, though...

Doesn't matter on the SUBJECT whether or not I "get"
a ham license. Big badass davie IS going to find some
sort of personal denigration "charge" to misdirect the
thread SUBJECT onto my person's alleged "faults."
He can't help it. He just doesn't like those having
differing opinions than his.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Your faults are not "alleged". They are real. You've posted them
over and over.

Davie Heil has been trying to toss me off this news-
group for over seven years on all sorts of specious
"charges." Tsk. He's FAILED! I'm still here. Poor
guy must be twins (he's beside himself).

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Failure is NOT an option, Davie.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

A prediction: I predict that Lennie Anderson's last year on RRAP
has arrived.

A good chance I'll be wrong...However when it comes to Lennie I've
been right far, FAR more times than I've been wrong.

Stay tuned.

TRY to get back ON the SUBJECT...WITHOUT resorting to
all the alleged "faults" of another person. I don't
think you can do it.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.



I am sure the IEEE is sooooooooooooooooooooo proud of you.

Due, in no small part, to all those wonderful, inciteful papers
you wrote while you were a "regular hours engineer". (no, I did not
mispell
'inciteful')

Lennie...you have one H U G E advantage over your puppetboy
sidekick...No offspring to look you up on a search engine someday only
to find out what a deceitful, mean-spirited liar you'd been all those
years that he had been "looking up to" him...

Steve, K4YZ