N2EY:

that is all wet.

Although an increase in bandwidth can be used to transmit more data,
what we are discussing is the protocol of binary transmission in the
form of video data and in an agreed upon structure over a roughly ~5K
audio bandwidth--or--simply put, data throughput measured in bits (or
bytes, or words (16 bits), or double-words (32), etc, per second. This
all can be done with existing, common equipment modified to do so, and
easily at rates of 56K, over the audio bandwidth of most transceivers
(or with minor modifications of the transceivers audio circuits),
with most remain ignorant to the fact it is being done at all!

If some hams want to jack around all the standards and methods which
are already in place--screw with current terminology and "encode" all
this to "ham words/terminology/technology" with the hope of
obfuscating the facts and making it appear that the hams have invented
the internet, have at it! I am sure the digital youngsters will find
this a strong draw to amateur radio.

The technology has been out there for over a decade, in everyday use
for 5 years or better, and now is used widely in industry for security
monitoring, etc. You can buy it off the shelf...

The real experimenters have now moved on and use nothing less than
100MBS+ nic cards and wireless wans interfaced to transceivers through
computers over spread spectrum... which some one will point out is a
violation of FCC regs for amateur radio bands.

It will probably be another 10 years before hams "invent" this new
gig. Possibly longer if they sit around and argue whether it can be
done or not... ROFLOL

John

wrote in message
oups.com...
John Smith wrote:
N2EY:

Most of that is incorrect.

Most of what?

First you use "on the fly" encryption/decryption/"data
compaction" and
have it occurring in "real time." This has the effect of being
"transparent" and the user is not even aware that it is going
on.

That's what

"Convert the pictures and video into highly-compressed digital
formats for transmission." means, John. Whether it's done in "real
time" is just a detail.

Next, forget the sn/noise ratio other than it has to acceptable
for
transmission of understandable communication (however, this is
required no matter what the form of data--i.e., voice, ssb, cw,
etc)

Signal-to-noise is an integral part of Shannon's thereom. It cannot
simply be "forgotten".

Next, listen to digital signal occupying audio bandwidth (it is
audio
bandwidth that is of concern here, NOT rf bandwidth,

No, that's not correct.

The discussion is about transmitting pictures and video on the
amateur
HF/MF bands. RF bandwidth is a very important thing there.

except
with the
possibility of fm and how you implement the data compression
and
transmission, i.e., just make it fit the existing rf bandwidth
and NO
changes are needed--however, larger rf bandwidth will ALWAYS
result in
a drastic increase in transmission speed and wideband fm can
easily
offer itself to 1MBS and faster) a digital signal can be
treated just
like a analog signal if desired, the use of CRC checksums and
error
checking of the data is just more intense under these
circumstances
and there is NO standard established for this--so you MUST be
able to
make and use your own custom hardware and software. To avoid
this, just grab off the shelf digital hardware/software.

And the simplest way for hams to do that at HF/MF is to use an SSB
transceiver and a computer with a sound card.

But that's not the only issue.

Next, for every patented form of audio video protocols there
are FREE
forms, usually the free ones are more acceptable, efficient and
suitable to ones needs, an example:
Use ogg vobis compression of audio as opposed to mp3
--in video--
Use xvid as opposed to divx 4-5

And make sure the folks at the other end are similarly equipped.

However, any of this requires a sound and current education and
knowledge of the state of technology--and something which is
obviously lacking here.

Yes, John, your lack of a sound and current education about amateur
HF/MF communications is quite evident. Good to see
you admitting it.

There's also the issue of FCC regulations. Of course those
regulations
can be changed, and there are several proposals in development or
before the FCC to change them. But until they are changed, amateurs
will be constrained by the current rules, such as the 300 baud
limitation on HF. The vast majority of hams are not going to break
those rules, regardless of the available technology or their
education.


The question raised by KB3EIA and N8UZE remains: How can video
be sent in a 2.5 kHz RF bandwidth on the amateur HF bands? I've
answered that question in a theoretical way. I don't think you
even understand the question and all its implications, John.


wrote in message
oups.com...
Mike Coslo wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:

How we be gonna scale those pictures and live video to fit into
2.5
KHz?

Two steps:

1) Convert the pictures and video into highly-compressed digital
formats for transmission.

2) Use different modes/modulations/protocols

Shannon's Theorem tells us that we can get very high data rates
through
very narrow bandwidths *if* we have adequate signal-to-noise
ratio.
Note that "noise" takes many forms, not just the thermal noise
we're
used to.

For example, PSK has an advantage over OOK when dealing with
thermal
noise. But when dealing with other types of noise, OOK can have
an
advantage. It all depends on the transmission medium. What works
on
a
telephone line may not work on an HF path of the same apparent
bandwidth.


I thought that we were going to be able to send live video
and digital images on HF?

You can do that now - just need enough S/N.

Simply by hooking our computers to our rigs via the
proper interfaces.

And software.

Now it seems that the *idea* is that we are going to use
DRM, and we're
going to need to get more spectrum in which to use.

There are all sorts of solutions. But there's a world of
difference between people talking theory and actual
application.

Most of all, some folks confuse the journey and the destination.

Does complex and newer equal better?

Sometimes. Not always.

Is analog simpler than digital?

Sometimes!

Does having a computer that attaches to the Internet
make a person a digital expert?

Some folks think so! I don't. And besides - "digital expert"
doesn't
mean someone knows much about radio.

I ask for enlightenment, I get invective.

Are you surprised?

Appears to be what there is to offer.

Now consider how effective such a person would
be trying to sell amateur radio - with or
without a code test.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Len:

I finally figured out why they truly hate you here!


No one hates him but everyone gets tired of his derogatory remarks and
antiquated stories.

You have made a statement that cw is ridiculous and protested by never
getting an amateur license--now there are tens of thousands or even
hundreds of thousands who have joined you--I see them everyday--they
refuse to get a license because of the code...


I cannot believe that you have polled tens of thousands or hundreds of
thousands about getting a license. Most of those people don't even know
amateur radio exists let alone its requiements.

Most of us think it is silly to cut off your nose to spite your face. And
most of us know it is far more effective to attempt changes from the inside
rather than remaining on the outside and looking in.

... that is why they hate you, you were a man before your time my friend!
And, your protest is being voiced by a strong majority today.


Again no one hates him but simply will not tolerate his derogatory comments.
The moment that someone disagrees with him, he starts in on that approach
and continues in that vein despite the fact that some of us have persisted
in remaining polite and not calling him names.

Some of us finally have refused to feed the troll and do not respond to his
posts.

John


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee:

Most at VHF to SHF+ freqs have no license and don't want one--I am
speaking HF here.

Most only want to be able to speak to others in new zealand,
australia, malaysia, indo-asia, britian, etc...

Something which they bypass vhf+ for, those who are not freebanders
use the internet there and chat internationally...

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
KXHB:

Go ask the college and high school students in the EE fields why
they do not obtain amateur licenses.

I have asked, it is the code which they cite at least 90% of the
time. However, you guys don't care, and will go on speaking like
that is not true. Put your butt in a car, drive over to your local
college and have a chat with an electronics engineer professor
there and the students--then perhaps you will realize we who know
are looking at you like some crazed manic reciting a ridiculous
mantra about code not being a hindrance and the real reason amateur
radio is dying...

John


Since all the "new action" is VHF and higher and that doesn't
require a code license, code should be no detriment. Or is some one
fibbing to them either directly or by omission so that they do not
know about the codeless Technician license.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee:

Frankly I am surprised you are so offended over his "derogatory
remarks", you all seem so asleep to the real world that short of
striking you over the head with a two-by-four you will remain in this
dream-like state. Positive is not always good, except to "new agers"
studying mysticism and crystals, and I have no time for silliness...

If offended by reality one can always change reality or change
themselves--I have always found the latter more productive.

He (Len) battles a whole klick of you which are functioning like a
damn support group--and you don't let little things like reality,
"real world", sanity and facts get in your way. You all begin your
chants of known mantras and chase the light-weights away!

You all exist in an echo chamber using the echo of your own words as
"valid arguments", or to site "majority agreements."

Get real, to any cutting edge people, they feel like they have entered
the twilight zone when here!

You realize, I was quite offended as a young man when my parents would
ask me to empty the garbage--then I grew up and realized in the real
world someone has to do it...

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Len:

I finally figured out why they truly hate you here!


No one hates him but everyone gets tired of his derogatory remarks
and antiquated stories.

You have made a statement that cw is ridiculous and protested by
never getting an amateur license--now there are tens of thousands
or even hundreds of thousands who have joined you--I see them
everyday--they refuse to get a license because of the code...


I cannot believe that you have polled tens of thousands or hundreds
of thousands about getting a license. Most of those people don't
even know amateur radio exists let alone its requiements.

Most of us think it is silly to cut off your nose to spite your
face. And most of us know it is far more effective to attempt
changes from the inside rather than remaining on the outside and
looking in.

... that is why they hate you, you were a man before your time my
friend! And, your protest is being voiced by a strong majority
today.


Again no one hates him but simply will not tolerate his derogatory
comments. The moment that someone disagrees with him, he starts in
on that approach and continues in that vein despite the fact that
some of us have persisted in remaining polite and not calling him
names.

Some of us finally have refused to feed the troll and do not respond
to his posts.

John


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Dee:

Frankly I am surprised you are so offended over his "derogatory remarks",
you all seem so asleep to the real world that short of striking you over
the head with a two-by-four you will remain in this dream-like state.
Positive is not always good, except to "new agers" studying mysticism and
crystals, and I have no time for silliness...

If offended by reality one can always change reality or change
themselves--I have always found the latter more productive.

He (Len) battles a whole klick of you which are functioning like a damn
support group--and you don't let little things like reality, "real world",
sanity and facts get in your way. You all begin your chants of known
mantras and chase the light-weights away!

You all exist in an echo chamber using the echo of your own words as
"valid arguments", or to site "majority agreements."

Get real, to any cutting edge people, they feel like they have entered the
twilight zone when here!

You realize, I was quite offended as a young man when my parents would ask
me to empty the garbage--then I grew up and realized in the real world
someone has to do it...

John


To be effective in the real world, one does not insult people with
derogatory remarks. In my profession, I frequently have to convince people
that the new is better than the old. Insults and put downs would get me
thrown out the door and cost me a job. It doesn't get a whole lot more real
than that.

It takes tact along with accurate and verifiable data to implement new
proposals. The cutting edge people in the real world know this although it
may come as a shock to those in academia.

Len does not use tact and does not present accurate and verifiable data.

Dee d. Flint, N8UZE

From: "John Smith" on Sun 3 Jul 2005 21:06

Len:

I finally figured out why they truly hate you here!

You are getting there, sort of...it's actually deeper than that.

You have made a statement that cw is ridiculous and protested by never
getting an amateur license--now there are tens of thousands or even
hundreds of thousands who have joined you--I see them everyday--they
refuse to get a license because of the code...

See the classical reducto ad absurdum response of Hans Brakob. :-)

Most of the commentary by the "regulars" (nearly all Pro-Code
Test Advocates (PCTA) amateur extras is predictable and worded
in the classical "league-speak" that has washed their brains.

They are few and NONE of the are, in any way, "representative"
of the "amateur community" despite what they exclaim. NONE of
them (Brakob included) accept any contrary commentary and each
feels that their tight clique must remain sound...regardless...

The "reply" that is a classic reduction-to-the-absurd of Brakob
is just one style of highly-negative response to "outsiders"
(those who do not think as the clique does). Heil stresses
the "personal involvement" as if he is a moral arbiter of all
but that is his only remaining retort and the glass of the retort
is cracked. Miccolis is firmly entrenched into a mindset of
amateur radio of days prior to his existance...a condition
that may have been caused by way too much rereading of ancient
copies of QST enshrined in his basement. Kelly is basically a
blustering Philly Tuff Guy who don' take nuttin from nobody!
Flint is one of the truer products of league pre-conditioning
("brainwashed" in familiar terms) but, to her credit, defends
the Newington barricades vigorously. Robeson is the emotional
wreckage of an exploded loose cannon littering the imaginary
battlefield. Jeswald ("Dan/W4NTI" who apparently changed
his surname) acts the southern-fried good-ole-boy and is little
more than a braggart, nasty when drunk.

There have been others, but the above coterie (perhaps 'cotillion'
of ancient debutantes/dilettants) makes up the "representative"
body in here. Each is a Special Interest Group of One. They
purport to be the "Voice of Amateur Radio" yet all speak
solely for their own particular desires and each holds to an
intimation that they are the proper role model for others.
["all must do as they did to be as good as they"]

Thousands of others interested in radio have come on various
scenes before I did. THEY are the ones that pushed forward for
the no-code-test Technician Class license creation. Such was
created. The God-fearing morsemen all sounded the Hue and Cry
with the "death of amateur radio (without the beloved code test
to show the "dedication and committment to the amateur
community")" on their lips. At present, the "lesser-class"
licensees in U.S. amateur radio (Technicians) amount to 48.43%
of all individual licenses as of 2 Jul 05. That was achieved
in a scant 14 years. Had the Technician classes not existed,
U.S. amateur radio licensees would have shrunk to less than
60% of its current size now. The intrinsic appeal of morse
code ("try it you'll like it!") is nebulous, more vapor than
substance.

Amateur radio - as the olde-fahrts knew it - IS beginning to
shrink. Without change, it WILL die out...but after the olde-
fahrts do. The olde-fahrts are Holding Back The Dawn, fearing
the sunshine of new ideas like vampires trembling at sunrise.
At best, their "new ideas" exist in the "new band" trials at
600 meters...the old 500 KHz maritime distress and safety
frequency that was. "CW" of course. All is morsemanship in
the ARS (Archaic Radiotelegraph Society)...that "cutting edge
mode" exemplifying "keeping up with the state of the art."
"Bang the Carrier Slowly" would be an alternate title.

... that is why they hate you, you were a man before your time my
friend!

Not really. I disturb their self-image of expertise and
elitism. I challenge their brags with some experience in HF
and VHF and UHF and microwaves communications. That is the
breaking of illusions they harbor, a sort of mental
Krystalnacht of theirs and they feel persecuted, seek
vengence and retribution for disturbing their fantasies of
glory, honor, and nobility. [I pop their balloons]

Others have been the pioneers of NCTA-ism. They were before me.
They deserve the credit, not me. I'm simply outspoken and on
the other side of them. They can't handle it...the league
hasn't instructed them on how to handle such humans...they
revert to middle school taunts, acting like middle-aged
children. Tsk, tsk. :-)

And, your protest is being voiced by a strong majority today.

The PCTA hear not. The olde-fahrts holding back the dawn
hear not. They will resist until the last code key is pried
from their cold, dead fingers. They WERE "operators."

From: "John Smith" on Mon 4 Jul 2005 08:35

KXHB:

I support NCI myself.

Now, that part about John Wayne as a gay hairdresser in a western, I
damn near died laughing from the visual image your words inspired in
my mind, when I read your words.

That may be due to Hans not getting a good comb-over yet...


bit bit

wrote


The "reply" that is a classic reduction-to-the-absurd of Brakob
is just one style ....


In your case, Anderson, "reduction" isn't required.

73, de Hans, K0HB

Dee:

Developing a sense of humor and being able to have "fun" poked at
oneself is viewed as desirable by some, indeed, those who take
themselves far too seriously are an offence to me--whether they
realize it or not, sometimes I am polite and don't point that out
(rarely though. grin)

As a side note, I am running MS Agent (Microsoft Agent--all components
of this are either already in windows xp or downloadable for windows
95 and up, a friend in france supplied me with the french engine)
text-to-speech and speech-to-text engines.

I find with the french library of phonics I am able to chat with
french speakers to a remarkably good degree of success, and I am the
only one which needs to run the software, doing ALL translation on my
end solely! (but makes "me" sound rather "robotic" when I "speak"
french. grin

A transceiver, computer/"sound card" and the free software is all
which is necessary to begin using/experimenting (the speech phonic
library(s) may have to be purchased for some languages--I am unclear
on this, and an ability to a software programmer or access to a
programmer is highly suggested.)

I am beginning to look upon this as Capt. Kirk's "universal
translator", when the aliens finally show up (and can supply me with a
proper speech engine) I plan on being among the first to verbally
greet them! grin

Anyway, this is an area where experimenters should come. As, I know
of only a handful of techies experimenting here and of no "successful"
commercial products on the market.

If there exists any of a competitive nature, here are the waters to
weigh anchor and hold battle!

John

Video, at this point, is pretty much "ho-hum stuff."

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Dee:

Frankly I am surprised you are so offended over his "derogatory
remarks", you all seem so asleep to the real world that short of
striking you over the head with a two-by-four you will remain in
this dream-like state. Positive is not always good, except to "new
agers" studying mysticism and crystals, and I have no time for
silliness...

If offended by reality one can always change reality or change
themselves--I have always found the latter more productive.

He (Len) battles a whole klick of you which are functioning like a
damn support group--and you don't let little things like reality,
"real world", sanity and facts get in your way. You all begin your
chants of known mantras and chase the light-weights away!

You all exist in an echo chamber using the echo of your own words
as "valid arguments", or to site "majority agreements."

Get real, to any cutting edge people, they feel like they have
entered the twilight zone when here!

You realize, I was quite offended as a young man when my parents
would ask me to empty the garbage--then I grew up and realized in
the real world someone has to do it...

John


To be effective in the real world, one does not insult people with
derogatory remarks. In my profession, I frequently have to convince
people that the new is better than the old. Insults and put downs
would get me thrown out the door and cost me a job. It doesn't get
a whole lot more real than that.

It takes tact along with accurate and verifiable data to implement
new proposals. The cutting edge people in the real world know this
although it may come as a shock to those in academia.

Len does not use tact and does not present accurate and verifiable
data.

Dee d. Flint, N8UZE

Len:

Lighten up, I think he has real potential as a comedian and/or movie
director! And, I am only half joking!

I'd pay to watch the movie he suggested, good belly laughs are hard to
come by these days! John Wayne in that role would be perfect to evoke
such!

John

wrote in message
ups.com...
From: "John Smith" on Mon 4 Jul 2005 08:35

KXHB:

I support NCI myself.

Now, that part about John Wayne as a gay hairdresser in a western, I
damn near died laughing from the visual image your words inspired in
my mind, when I read your words.

That may be due to Hans not getting a good comb-over yet...


bit bit