On Aug 23, 3:04 am, RHF wrote:

Clear Channel announced in 2006 that KFBK would be converted from a
traditional AM broadcasting station to an HD2 facility. Eventually,
the HD conversion will allow for KFBK-1, KFBK-2 and KFBK-3 together on
the 1530 AM signal.

I didn't think you could carry all those separate IBOC services on the
AM band?

I thought IBOC for AM consisted basically of the station's digital
signal plus RDS, since there isn't room for anything else (unless you
turn off the analog signal).

IBOC FM, I know for certain, can support up to three or four
"streams". Maybe even more if you do away with analog subcarriers
(like 92 and 67 khz for voice) and the analog section of the signal.

Stephanie Weil
New York City, USA

On Aug 24, 11:57 am, Stephanie Weil wrote:
On Aug 23, 3:04 am, RHF wrote:

Clear Channel announced in 2006 that KFBK would be converted from a
traditional AM broadcasting station to an HD2 facility. Eventually,
the HD conversion will allow for KFBK-1, KFBK-2 and KFBK-3 together on
the 1530 AM signal.

I didn't think you could carry all those separate IBOC services on the
AM band?

I thought IBOC for AM consisted basically of the station's digital
signal plus RDS, since there isn't room for anything else (unless you
turn off the analog signal).

IBOC FM, I know for certain, can support up to three or four
"streams". Maybe even more if you do away with analog subcarriers
(like 92 and 67 khz for voice) and the analog section of the signal.

Stephanie Weil
New York City, USA

SW - I was news to me so that is why
I printed it out. ~ RHF

Maybe DE will come along and
give us a Definitive Answer . . .

www.blacklistednews.com/view.asp?ID=4085

That is a good school district.Public schools are so dumbed down all
over America,,, they should keep them in school twelve months each year
and jump the first through twelth grades up to twenty grades.Public
schools here start in he first week in August.
cuhulin

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 18:43:40 -0700, Stephanie Weil
wrote:

On Aug 26, 2:58 am, "Pete KE9OA" wrote:
Have you ever looked at an IBOC signal with a spectrum analyzer?

On Aug 26, 2:58 am, "Pete KE9OA" wrote:
Have you ever looked at an IBOC signal with a spectrum analyzer? I don't
think to. Of course, you are joking when you try to tell people about the
interference that you don't get from the local IBOC stations.

I've seen the shape of one on a screen capture. Yes, I know, not the
same thing, but still.

On AM, if you try to tune in a faint out of market station in the
daytime -- say AM 74 out of Huntington, NY -- which is between AM 710
and AM 77 in New York (both IBOC stations), you can't. If you're not
getting hash from 710, you're getting it from 77, either of which
wipes out the already pitiful reception of this peanutwhistle on AM
74.

If you try to tune in AM 1240 out of Morristown, NJ, you'll be hit
with interference from AM 1280 (another local station running IBOC).

Stephanie Weil
New York City, USA


Here we have:

780 KKOH
790 KABC
810 KGO

all obliterating each other and all owned by the same company. AM is
about to die.

On Aug 26, 10:30 pm, Bart Bailey wrote:

Maybe if you narrowed your bandwidth or used synchronous detection on
the far sideband you could do likewise? What kind of receiver are you
using? Does it have synchronous detection or pass band shift?

I'm talking about normal radios. I don't own any "communications
grade" gear (unless you want to count my Zenith Royal D7000Y, which I
don't).

I've owned ghetto blasters (yes! ghetto blasters) with very good
quality tuners that allowed me to pick up -- and comfortably listen to
-- stations like WICC AM 6 in Bridgeport, Conn., WMTR AM 1250 in
Morristown, NJ, and yes, even what was then WBLI-1240 (now WGBB) out
of Freeport, NY.

On a few run-of-the-mill 5-tube radios and pocket radios I would
sometimes be able to scrape out AM 1210 from Philadelphia. All during
the day.

Can't do this anymore. But that's unimportant Let's get on to a
topic that's more important for "joe random" AM listeners: The sound
quality of the analog signal.

I have a Kloss Tivoli table radio which is definitely not sensitive
on AM, but was designed to have have very decent sound for its little
size.

It's gotten to the point where it's gotten impossible to listen to an
IBOC AM station on one of these during the day because you ALWAYS hear
that "hisss" in the background. And please, find an excuse for the
"clipping" of the audio?

Fine, so I won't be able to DX. I can live with that, considering
it's not worth doing so anymore.
But can't I have at least the local stations sounding decent and
"clean" without something that sounds worse than over-driven cheap
magnetic tape hiss constantly buzzing in my ears?

Stephanie Weil
New York City, USA

Pete KE9OA wrote:
Perfectly put, Brenda. IBOC is the biggest joke that I have seen in a long
time. And they have the nerve to call it "high definition radio". As big a
joke as Windows Vista.

Pete





iBiquity specifically states that "HD" in "HD Radio" does not stand
for "High Definition." At one time, it stood for "Hybrid Digital," as
the intent was to make the transition to full time digital only
broadcasting.

Today, iBiquity claims "HD" stands for nothing....


Which, if you think about it.....


And as for the idea of apply synchronous detection to get rid of
IBOC interference....yes...well....ahem....

Not so.


You're not that far from me, and there is no end of IBOC rash over
the stations worth hearing, up here. I think this is a solution
desperately looking for a reason to execute the perpetrator.

Radio isn't going to give up on this crap easily, though. Not with
the investment they've already made in hardware and licensing. But it's
not a solution that will bring the results Radio was hoping for. First,
it's not CONTENT focussed in its marketing...And it's CONTENT that
drives listening. That's why we're all so willing to sit through the
noise and static to hear programs that are not broadcast
locally....we're want the content, not the gimmick. (Well, except for
one, whose logs reflected at most 2 minutes each of the stations in the
ILG database.)

Until Radio gets this, and starts creating content that listeners
want to hear, and making it availble only on the digital streams, IBOC
will continue to languish.

No matter what HD salesmen claim.

The data tells a different tune than a claim about a commission check.
















"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ups.com...
You must have a very dull life - nothing to do but post your very
stupid remarks about HD Radio.

The auto industry is gearing up to add HD Radio to nearly every make
and model automobile within the next 3 years or so. All 2007 BMW's
now offer HD Radio as an option. For 2008, Jaguar has added the
option. Also for 2008, the new luxury car being offered by Hyundai
will have HD Radio as standard, I believe. And the list goes on.

The same nonsense was said about FM Radio, about radio itself when
television took off, about tv dinners, etc. etc. Things don't happen
overnight.
FM did not interfere with anyone's ability to listen to their favorite AM
station. TV didn't interfere with anyone's ability to listen to their
favorite AM or FM station. FM stereo did not interfere with anyone's
ability to listen to their favorite FM station in monaural. AM stereo did
not interfere with anyone's ability to listen to their favorite AM station
in monaural (in fact, it enhanced the experience because of the allowed
extra bandwidth. IBOC DOES interfere with people's abilities to listen to
their favorite stations. Not only does AM-IBOC interfere with stations up
to three channels away from an IBOC station's carrier frequency, but it
has meant that the audio bandwidth now used for AM analog is little or no
better than a telephone. FM-IBOC interferes with first and second adjacent
channels, making them difficult or impossible to receive. And anyone who
lives in a high population area, such as the east coast, knows that their
'local' stations are not the only ones they can hear. Areas between say,
New York and Boston, or New York and Philadelphia, can hear stations
easily from either city. Not with IBOC..

I believe ( HOPE) HD radio is going nowhere,,,, Fast!
cuhulin

On Aug 27, 12:38 pm, Bart Bailey wrote:

Orban's Opti-Mod I think it's called, and station personnel that can't
seem to resist adjusting them for maximum smoke.

Processors were always set "hot" way before IBOC came on the scene,
and I never heard station audio clip and distort the way it does now
on the analog side of AM HD. Reducing the available bandwith for
analog to +/- 5 khz to shoehorn the digital portion sure hasn't helped
either.

The whole idea with HD is that you have to back off on the processing
a bit. You can't overdrive digital the way you can with analog and
have it come out sounding good. It's like slightly overdriving a
recording on cassette tape vs. Minidisc. If you try it with Minidisc,
you hit a brick wall and everything above that starts sounding like so
much mush.

Stephanie Weil
New York City, USA

Stephanie Weil wrote:
On Aug 27, 12:38 pm, Bart Bailey wrote:

Orban's Opti-Mod I think it's called, and station personnel that can't
seem to resist adjusting them for maximum smoke.

Processors were always set "hot" way before IBOC came on the scene,
and I never heard station audio clip and distort the way it does now
on the analog side of AM HD. Reducing the available bandwith for
analog to +/- 5 khz to shoehorn the digital portion sure hasn't helped
either.

The whole idea with HD is that you have to back off on the processing
a bit. You can't overdrive digital the way you can with analog and
have it come out sounding good. It's like slightly overdriving a
recording on cassette tape vs. Minidisc. If you try it with Minidisc,
you hit a brick wall and everything above that starts sounding like so
much mush.

Stephanie Weil
New York City, USA



Clipping has been part of audio processing since the early days of
audio processing. It's usually inaudible. AM processing has been using
'smart' clipping for awhile, now. Smart clipping is not quite as
hard--rounded edges--but for a number of years CRL openly hard clipped
the composite baseband and let the **** fall into the filter where it may.

And not all analog clipping is that objectionable. It adds even order
harmonics, which are pleasing to the ear. If over done...well, that's
another story...but lightly, it can be a good thing...

One of the problems we have with digital audio, is the number of
analog engineers applyin analog thinking to digital audio. And this
applies to both recording and live audio, as well. You're right, digital
audio is a brick wall at '0', and anything beyond that becomes some
serious trash. Analog engineers, especially in the recording industry,
routinely try to recreate 'tape compression' at the top end, by driving
preamps and other pre conversion electronics mildly to their top end.
Especially if they're using tube preamps. This takes a delicate hand.
But who's that delicate is broadcasting, today? Not many.

The most common complaint I hear about HD reception, today, and this
applies to both AM and FM, is the audio quality isn't what is expected.
It's not CD quality, which according to Philips and Sony was only
supposed to be medium-fi in the first place. And the HD audio is nearly
always loaded with some kind of distortion artifact resulting from
trying to pack 5 lbs in a 4 lb bag.

Truth is, the very reasons we developed audio processing in the first
place still apply to the digital audio--limited headroom and the attempt
to control clipping distortions while retaining compelling listening.
Simply going digital is not changing those needs. While digital usually
has deeper dynamic range, on the soft end, there is still a finite,
limited ceiling at the max end, and that's where the most objectionable
distortion is. So, the same needs for processing still apply. Albeit in
different areas, with different parameters.

To provide compelling listening in the digital stream, engineers MUST
provide the proper dynamics and spectral controls.

But that costs money. And most HD streams are not self supporting.
And with Radio facing performance royalty payments, that's not likely to
change any too soon. Another reason why the HD battle is upstream.

The hard truth is that Radio in the main, isn't playing HD the way it
needs to be played to maximize it as a resource. Some are. There are
some very good sounding HD streams. But most aren't.

And they aren't likely to start. It's too much work, for too little
revenue return on the investment.

You are correct...........iBiquity didn't make that claim. The local radio
station on 97.1 calls theirselves "high definition radio".
When I spoke to one of the PR folks at iBiquity a couple of years ago, they
made the claim that when I heard the hi fidilety capabilities of IBOC on the
MW band that I would be impressed. When I asked them about eliminating the
interference to the adjacent channels, they didn't have an answer.

Pete

"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
Pete KE9OA wrote:
Perfectly put, Brenda. IBOC is the biggest joke that I have seen in a
long time. And they have the nerve to call it "high definition radio". As
big a joke as Windows Vista.

Pete





iBiquity specifically states that "HD" in "HD Radio" does not stand for
"High Definition." At one time, it stood for "Hybrid Digital," as the
intent was to make the transition to full time digital only broadcasting.

Today, iBiquity claims "HD" stands for nothing....


Which, if you think about it.....


And as for the idea of apply synchronous detection to get rid of IBOC
interference....yes...well....ahem....

Not so.


You're not that far from me, and there is no end of IBOC rash over the
stations worth hearing, up here. I think this is a solution desperately
looking for a reason to execute the perpetrator.

Radio isn't going to give up on this crap easily, though. Not with the
investment they've already made in hardware and licensing. But it's not a
solution that will bring the results Radio was hoping for. First, it's not
CONTENT focussed in its marketing...And it's CONTENT that drives
listening. That's why we're all so willing to sit through the noise and
static to hear programs that are not broadcast locally....we're want the
content, not the gimmick. (Well, except for one, whose logs reflected at
most 2 minutes each of the stations in the ILG database.)

Until Radio gets this, and starts creating content that listeners want
to hear, and making it availble only on the digital streams, IBOC will
continue to languish.

No matter what HD salesmen claim.

The data tells a different tune than a claim about a commission check.
















"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ups.com...
You must have a very dull life - nothing to do but post your very
stupid remarks about HD Radio.

The auto industry is gearing up to add HD Radio to nearly every make
and model automobile within the next 3 years or so. All 2007 BMW's
now offer HD Radio as an option. For 2008, Jaguar has added the
option. Also for 2008, the new luxury car being offered by Hyundai
will have HD Radio as standard, I believe. And the list goes on.

The same nonsense was said about FM Radio, about radio itself when
television took off, about tv dinners, etc. etc. Things don't happen
overnight.
FM did not interfere with anyone's ability to listen to their favorite
AM station. TV didn't interfere with anyone's ability to listen to their
favorite AM or FM station. FM stereo did not interfere with anyone's
ability to listen to their favorite FM station in monaural. AM stereo
did not interfere with anyone's ability to listen to their favorite AM
station in monaural (in fact, it enhanced the experience because of the
allowed extra bandwidth. IBOC DOES interfere with people's abilities to
listen to their favorite stations. Not only does AM-IBOC interfere with
stations up to three channels away from an IBOC station's carrier
frequency, but it has meant that the audio bandwidth now used for AM
analog is little or no better than a telephone. FM-IBOC interferes with
first and second adjacent channels, making them difficult or impossible
to receive. And anyone who lives in a high population area, such as the
east coast, knows that their 'local' stations are not the only ones they
can hear. Areas between say, New York and Boston, or New York and
Philadelphia, can hear stations easily from either city. Not with IBOC..