In article
,
wrote:

On Nov 16, 9:54 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In


posted on Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:54:03 -0800 (PST), Steve wrote: Begin

On Nov 16, 12:03 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

But isn't knob twirling and button pushing
an accepted part of the allure of SW DXing?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, it's accepted. It's accepted because it's inevitable, but I don't
think anyone wants to there to be any more knob twiddling and button
pushing than is necessary to get the job done.

My point was that playing with the knobs and features is an integral
component of the joy of 'digging 'em out', otherwise someone would just
tune to a local broadcast for set it and forget it entertainment.

Here is the short explanation. Old farts can't handle the ar7030
menus. if you understand computers, the menus are not an issue. What
the menus do buy you is a compact radio, since you don't need all the
space for buttons and knobs. Again, I'll repeat, I never use the
remote. The menus are quite easy to use.

Look I've been through this. I have purchased 10's of millions of
dollars in test equipment that operate in different ways and the
preference that all users of that equipment have shown to me is a knob
or button for every function. People do not want to go through menus to
get to some operating function. These people are engineers and
technicians.

And I'll repeat that if you don't use the remote you are just plain
dumb. Sure the menus are just fine but you can push a button on the
remote that take several button pushes on the front panel so why go that
route.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

On Nov 16, 7:43 pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,



wrote:
On Nov 16, 9:54 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In


posted on Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:54:03 -0800 (PST), Steve wrote: Begin

On Nov 16, 12:03 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

But isn't knob twirling and button pushing
an accepted part of the allure of SW DXing?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, it's accepted. It's accepted because it's inevitable, but I don't
think anyone wants to there to be any more knob twiddling and button
pushing than is necessary to get the job done.

My point was that playing with the knobs and features is an integral
component of the joy of 'digging 'em out', otherwise someone would just
tune to a local broadcast for set it and forget it entertainment.

Here is the short explanation. Old farts can't handle the ar7030
menus. if you understand computers, the menus are not an issue. What
the menus do buy you is a compact radio, since you don't need all the
space for buttons and knobs. Again, I'll repeat, I never use the
remote. The menus are quite easy to use.

Look I've been through this. I have purchased 10's of millions of
dollars in test equipment that operate in different ways and the
preference that all users of that equipment have shown to me is a knob
or button for every function. People do not want to go through menus to
get to some operating function. These people are engineers and
technicians.

And I'll repeat that if you don't use the remote you are just plain
dumb. Sure the menus are just fine but you can push a button on the
remote that take several button pushes on the front panel so why go that
route.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Eh, I've bought my share of test eq too. I like the menus if they are
done well. Hp started to use soft buttons in the 80s and hasn't gone
back.

In article
,
wrote:

On Nov 16, 7:43 pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,



wrote:
On Nov 16, 9:54 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

.com

posted on Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:54:03 -0800 (PST), Steve wrote: Begin

On Nov 16, 12:03 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

But isn't knob twirling and button pushing
an accepted part of the allure of SW DXing?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, it's accepted. It's accepted because it's inevitable, but I don't
think anyone wants to there to be any more knob twiddling and button
pushing than is necessary to get the job done.

My point was that playing with the knobs and features is an integral
component of the joy of 'digging 'em out', otherwise someone would just
tune to a local broadcast for set it and forget it entertainment.

Here is the short explanation. Old farts can't handle the ar7030
menus. if you understand computers, the menus are not an issue. What
the menus do buy you is a compact radio, since you don't need all the
space for buttons and knobs. Again, I'll repeat, I never use the
remote. The menus are quite easy to use.

Look I've been through this. I have purchased 10's of millions of
dollars in test equipment that operate in different ways and the
preference that all users of that equipment have shown to me is a knob
or button for every function. People do not want to go through menus to
get to some operating function. These people are engineers and
technicians.

And I'll repeat that if you don't use the remote you are just plain
dumb. Sure the menus are just fine but you can push a button on the
remote that take several button pushes on the front panel so why go that
route.


Eh, I've bought my share of test eq too. I like the menus if they are
done well. Hp started to use soft buttons in the 80s and hasn't gone
back.

Yes and since HP, then Agilent went the way of the menu they lost a lot
of sales to Anritsu that made comparable equipment with a knob or button
for every function. Personally I didn't care but most other people did
care and so it goes.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

On Nov 17, 2:27 pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,



wrote:
On Nov 16, 7:43 pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,

wrote:
On Nov 16, 9:54 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

.com

posted on Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:54:03 -0800 (PST), Steve wrote: Begin

On Nov 16, 12:03 am, Bart Bailey wrote:
In

But isn't knob twirling and button pushing
an accepted part of the allure of SW DXing?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, it's accepted. It's accepted because it's inevitable, but I don't
think anyone wants to there to be any more knob twiddling and button
pushing than is necessary to get the job done.

My point was that playing with the knobs and features is an integral
component of the joy of 'digging 'em out', otherwise someone would just
tune to a local broadcast for set it and forget it entertainment.

Here is the short explanation. Old farts can't handle the ar7030
menus. if you understand computers, the menus are not an issue. What
the menus do buy you is a compact radio, since you don't need all the
space for buttons and knobs. Again, I'll repeat, I never use the
remote. The menus are quite easy to use.

Look I've been through this. I have purchased 10's of millions of
dollars in test equipment that operate in different ways and the
preference that all users of that equipment have shown to me is a knob
or button for every function. People do not want to go through menus to
get to some operating function. These people are engineers and
technicians.

And I'll repeat that if you don't use the remote you are just plain
dumb. Sure the menus are just fine but you can push a button on the
remote that take several button pushes on the front panel so why go that
route.

Eh, I've bought my share of test eq too. I like the menus if they are
done well. Hp started to use soft buttons in the 80s and hasn't gone
back.

Yes and since HP, then Agilent went the way of the menu they lost a lot
of sales to Anritsu that made comparable equipment with a knob or button
for every function. Personally I didn't care but most other people did
care and so it goes.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Oh please. If you don't see Agilent gear in the lab, it's Rhodes and
Schwartz.

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:26:01 -0800 (PST), wrote:


Yes and since HP, then Agilent went the way of the menu they lost a lot
of sales to Anritsu that made comparable equipment with a knob or button
for every function. Personally I didn't care but most other people did
care and so it goes.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Oh please. If you don't see Agilent gear in the lab, it's Rhodes and
Schwartz.

My Anritsu is lousy with soft keys.

This thread seems to have migrated from a DSP vs. analog discussion to
one of ergonomics of buttons/knobs vs. menus.

What I'd really like to know is if there's any significant reason to
prefer a DSP-based receiver (e.g. the 756Pro-III) over an analog
receiver (e.g. AOR 7030+) on the basic of receiving performance.

Here's where I perceive DSP receivers to have the advantage:

* Sharper, narrower filters without artifacts (e.g. ringing)
* Easy updates via software download (TenTec supports this, does Icom?
(I doubt it))


and for analog:

* Higher dynamic range than most DSP receivers
* Lower cost (typically)
* Better audio


I had a chance to sit down and use a 756Pro-III for a few hours this
weekend, and I must say the spectrum scope is an addictive feature!

On Nov 19, 2:25 pm, wrote:
This thread seems to have migrated from a DSP vs. analog discussion to
one of ergonomics of buttons/knobs vs. menus.

What I'd really like to know is if there's any significant reason to
prefer a DSP-based receiver (e.g. the 756Pro-III) over an analog
receiver (e.g. AOR 7030+) on the basic of receiving performance.

Here's where I perceive DSP receivers to have the advantage:

* Sharper, narrower filters without artifacts (e.g. ringing)
* Easy updates via software download (TenTec supports this, does Icom?
(I doubt it))

and for analog:

* Higher dynamic range than most DSP receivers
* Lower cost (typically)
* Better audio

I had a chance to sit down and use a 756Pro-III for a few hours this
weekend, and I must say the spectrum scope is an addictive feature!

Digital filters ring unless they are sloppy. IIR filters ring. FIR
filters don't ring IF the tap coefficients are all positive, but then
the filter is sloppy. With DSP you have more control over the
bandwidth, but no freedom from ringing.

I don't think the 7030 is all that cheap once you buy the filter
daughter board and some crystal filters. The filters don't just
materialize in the radio. You need to solder them or pay someone to do
it.

VistaCruiser1 asked:
What I'd really like to know is if there's any significant reason to
prefer a DSP-based receiver (e.g. the 756Pro-III) over an analog
receiver (e.g. AOR 7030+) on the basic of receiving performance.

Here's where I perceive DSP receivers to have the advantage:

* Sharper, narrower filters without artifacts (e.g. ringing)
* Easy updates via software download (TenTec supports this, does
Icom?
(I doubt it))

and for analog:

* Higher dynamic range than most DSP receivers
* Lower cost (typically)
* Better audio
_________________________________________

Certainly the filters on the Icom 756 PRO III are just awesome - they
don't come much better than that.
The only filters I ever knew "rang" where on very narrow mechanical
filters such as you would use on CW, that is on analogue radio's.

On the 756Pro3 you will get absolutely no ringing at all, even on the
narrowest CW filter settings, and the number of 756Pro3 users who are
ecstatic about the filter performance on CW are well listed in the
eHam reviews, of which there are hundreds of happy owners. See:
http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/4635

No, the 756Pro3 is not firmware upgradeable, but it is the third
incarnation of this radio and you will see the very many users on eHam
who rave about it.
As for getting a radio with the highest dynamic range, I would say
that this is an overated feature. One of my DX pals had a radio with
93dB of close in performance and I never saw him post logs any better
than anyone else. On the other hand, many of the top DXer's are now
using SDR radio's which have a significantly lower close in
performance, yet they are achieving the most amazing results. The
close in of the 7030 is 82dB vs that of the 756Pro3 being 78dB (as
tested by QST) - you will never notice the difference in practical
use.

As for audio, it was true of the early Icom offerings that their audio
was poor, but the latest batch, including the 756Pro3 are very much
better. In fact if you place the 7030 side by side with the 756Pro3
and play them alternatively through a good outboard speaker, I am
willing to bet you will find the 756 audio better = it's really very
good.

Then we have price: yes, the 756Pro3 is expensive, but I never saw on
any of the eHam reviews anyone claiming it was not value for money. I
have owned mine for three years now and the shock of the high price
has long since worn off after experiencing the pleasure of owning one
of the finest performing and engineered radio's in the world. However,
if price is a major consideration, then consider as an alternative the
Icom 746Pro, which is considerably cheaper at about $1,600 - a very
good buy and the identical engine as that used in the 756Pro3.

Finally, if you are considering an SDR (many serious DXer's have
already moved into these, especially the older SDR-IQ), then the only
show in town at the moment is the Italian Perseus - it will land you
at about $1000 and has some great features with performance to match.

Remember, if you choose the 7030+ you are buying yesterday's
technology, the radio has been on the market for about twelve years
now.

John Plimmer, Montagu, Western Cape Province, South Africa
South 33 d 47 m 32 s, East 20 d 07 m 32 s
RX Icom IC-756 PRO III with MW mods
Drake SW8 & ERGO software
Sony 7600D, GE SRIII, Redsun RP2100
BW XCR 30, Sangean 803A.
GE circa 50's radiogram
Antenna's RF Systems DX 1 Pro Mk II, Datong AD-270
Kiwa MW Loop, PAORDT Roelof mini-whip
http://www.dxing.info/about/dxers/plimmer.dx


On Nov 20, 12:25 am, wrote:
This thread seems to have migrated from a DSP vs. analog discussion to
one of ergonomics of buttons/knobs vs. menus.

What I'd really like to know is if there's any significant reason to
prefer a DSP-based receiver (e.g. the 756Pro-III) over an analog
receiver (e.g. AOR 7030+) on the basic of receiving performance.

Here's where I perceive DSP receivers to have the advantage:

* Sharper, narrower filters without artifacts (e.g. ringing)
* Easy updates via software download (TenTec supports this, does Icom?
(I doubt it))

and for analog:

* Higher dynamic range than most DSP receivers
* Lower cost (typically)
* Better audio

I had a chance to sit down and use a 756Pro-III for a few hours this
weekend, and I must say the spectrum scope is an addictive feature!

In article ,
David wrote:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:26:01 -0800 (PST), wrote:


Yes and since HP, then Agilent went the way of the menu they lost a lot
of sales to Anritsu that made comparable equipment with a knob or button
for every function. Personally I didn't care but most other people did
care and so it goes.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Oh please. If you don't see Agilent gear in the lab, it's Rhodes and
Schwartz.

My Anritsu is lousy with soft keys.

Must be something newer then what I was buying. The Anritsu equipment I
bought had a knob or button for every function but they may have gone
the soft-keys around the screen method. Probably runs Window$ also.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:59:36 -0800, Telamon
wrote:

In article ,
David wrote:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:26:01 -0800 (PST), wrote:


Yes and since HP, then Agilent went the way of the menu they lost a lot
of sales to Anritsu that made comparable equipment with a knob or button
for every function. Personally I didn't care but most other people did
care and so it goes.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Oh please. If you don't see Agilent gear in the lab, it's Rhodes and
Schwartz.

My Anritsu is lousy with soft keys.

Must be something newer then what I was buying. The Anritsu equipment I
bought had a knob or button for every function but they may have gone
the soft-keys around the screen method. Probably runs Window$ also.

It's too slow for tuning cavities but it makes superb measurements. 6
markers!

http://www.us.anritsu.com/downloads/...1410-00251.pdf