"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...


Problem was, people didn't like stereo enough to buy another radio. And
it's not as if the radios were real expensive. They wouldn't buy four
AM
stereo standards. They wouldn't buy even one.

By the time in the early 80's when a standard, CQuam, arrose, AM was no
longer a music medium and had less than 40% of all listening.

But there were still people listening to music on AM, probably more than are
listening to HD radio right now. I can understand the enthusiasm people had
for AM stereo back then.

AM stereo might have kept radio as we then knew it alive.



Actually, people didn't care much about FM stereo, either. FM stereo
didn't
reach mass market appeal until it was almost a give-away with the radio.

Untrue. FM Stereo was introduced in about 1961, and the decade before had
seen total FM stations go from over 1000 in 1950 to around 500 in 1960.

I didn't mean FM radio stations. I meant FM recievers. When FM began it's
turnaround around 1970 or so, most of the FM receivers were mono.

The dominance of FM stereo receivers didn't happen until the price
difference was small.


What changed FM was not the technology, but the FCC's 1967 ban on FM
simulcasts with a parent AM station. It was the diversity of formats that
came out of this that sold FM.



On this we agree. The FM turnaround was driven by content.

Frank Dresser

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...
With no standard chosen, there was no impetus for the public to buy one
standard over another, nor impetus for manufacturers to start making one
standard over another....in any real sense.

The impetus would have been the desirability to upgrade to stereo. A
person
would buy a radio to match the system broadcast by a favorite station or
stations.

Somebody with different favorites would have to buy different radios or a
multimode radio.

Such are the sacrifices we make for the things we really like.


All anyone had to do was buy a Sony radio.. they received all the systems,
and had damn fine sound.

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
And like any other topic we disagree on I just happen to have one of
those exceptions about 5 miles away from myself, in english, playing
rock and roll music. Since this is the case for myself I could
extrapolate this to the majority of towns in this country. That would
add up to many more music station then you allow for.


Again, another poster misses the point: listenership. Those stations in
rated markets have zero or ground clutter ratings, which means that,
whatever they are doing, nearly nobody listens to it. My point is that AM is
not a music medium, and has not been since the 80's, which is why the
muddled and befuddled effort to do AM stereo back then also failed.


Portland, OR

1480 KBMS (Vancouver, WA) Urban Contemporary
1550 KKAD (Vancouver, WA) Nostalgia

Salem, OR

1490 KBZY Oldies


Eugene, OR

840 KKNX Oldies

Seaside, OR

840 KSWB Oldies

Waldport, OR

820 KORC Nostalgia

Longview, WA

1270 KBAM Country
1400 KEDO Oldies
1490 KLOG Classic Hits

Centralia, WA

1420 KITI Oldies

Seattle, WA

660 KAPS Country
880 KIXI Nostalgia
1420 KRIZ (Renton, WA) Rhythmic Oldies
1620 KYIZ (Renton, WA) Urban Contemporary

Yakima, WA

1460 KUTI Country

Grand Coulee, WA

1490 KEYG Country

Spokane, WA

630 KTRW Nostalgia
1050 KEYF Nostalgia

Coeur D Alene, ID

1080 KVNI Oldies


Wallace, ID

620 KWAL Country

Orofino, ID

1300 KLER Country

Lewiston, ID

1350 KRLC Country

Boise, ID

670 KBOI Jazz
1140 KGEM Nostalgia
1490 KCID (Caldwell, ID) Oldies

Pocatello, ID

790 KBRV (Soda Springs, ID) Country
1290 KOUU Country

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

By the time in the early 80's when a standard, CQuam, arrose, AM was no
longer a music medium and had less than 40% of all listening.

But there were still people listening to music on AM, probably more than
are
listening to HD radio right now. I can understand the enthusiasm people
had
for AM stereo back then.

AM stereo might have kept radio as we then knew it alive.

By the time the Motorola system became the standard, AM station owners were
mostly concerned with finding a way to program their AMs so as to stop
losing audience. That meant an alternative to anything being done on FM.

Add to that the urban sprawl of American cities, which were growing out of
the coverage areas of most of the stations licenced to them. So few AM
stations could compete with the coverage and quality of the better FM
allocations that they were forced to do niche formats, religion, gospel (now
a big FM format in many markets) and ethnic formats.

When you consider that in the top 100 markets, there is an average of only
two viable AM signals, you can understand that a number of factors came
together in a three decade long perfect storm that has left AM with as
little as 9% to 10% of listening in rated markets (Houston 12%, but less
than 5% under 45 years of age is a good big market example).


Untrue. FM Stereo was introduced in about 1961, and the decade before
had
seen total FM stations go from over 1000 in 1950 to around 500 in 1960.

I didn't mean FM radio stations. I meant FM recievers. When FM began
it's
turnaround around 1970 or so, most of the FM receivers were mono.

Most of FM listening is mono even today. Few clock radios, kitchen radios,
desk radios, shop radios are stereo. And the effects of noise make in care
stereo minimal at most driving speeds.

The dominance of FM stereo receivers didn't happen until the price
difference was small.

FM did not start gaining on AM because of stereo. It was because the FCC, in
'67, mandated an end to simulcasting and many new format options came on the
air. But it took a full decade for FM to achieve listening parity... which
is why we say that HD is a long, long term process. And it is way to late to
save AM now that owners are moving the "good" formats to FM because the AM
listener base is so old they can't sell advertising.

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

Keyword: still. Most AMs are talk based, and all the decently rated
ones are. A few exceptions, on analysis, make the rule; those with
music in rated markets are either ethnic (like the Farsi, Korean,
Chinese and Vietnamese language stations in the LA metro.

And like any other topic we disagree on I just happen to have one of
those exceptions about 5 miles away from myself, in english, playing
rock and roll music. Since this is the case for myself I could
extrapolate this to the majority of towns in this country. That would
add up to many more music station then you allow for.

Try re-reading the paragraph above your ill-reasoned one. I said "decently
rated" quite clearly. KVEN is rated 39th in the market in 25-54 year old
listeners (what in the industry are called the "sales demos") and is 27th in
listeners of all ages (12+ being the term used for that.). It's billings
have fallen by more than half since the year 2000, and currently are about
10% of the level attained by the market's leading billers, KCAQ, KHAY and
KXLM.

I don't need to reread it master of BS. You have this false notion that
there are only like 2 stations that have any signal in a market, which
of course is BS.

I get around 13 stations over S9 where I live 60 miles north of LA and
of course there are another dozen that put in a decent relatively noise
fee signal on a portable most places.

In fact, most places in the US don't have much music on AM unless, as I
said, it is in Farsi or Russian or Polish, to name three... or the station
is one of several forms of Gospel that have mostly 55 and over listeners.

I don't believe it.

I'll bet if I took the trouble to spin the dial looking for more I
could get maybe a handful buy you would come back and say I could not
hear them.

No, I would say, as I always have, that what you may pick up on your $5000
radio does not have the signal strength, clarity and consistency the average
listener seeks. There are probably hundreds or relatively easy out of market
AM signals you can get, between daytime and night. Listeners only pick the
ones that have monster signals, as proven by decades of research.

This is part of your BS story. I just used the table radios for S meter
readings and the portable for listening. Over a dozen come in noise free
on the portable. Actually almost 2 dozen come in noise free.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:


"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

By the time in the early 80's when a standard, CQuam, arrose, AM was no
longer a music medium and had less than 40% of all listening.

But there were still people listening to music on AM, probably more than
are
listening to HD radio right now. I can understand the enthusiasm people
had
for AM stereo back then.

AM stereo might have kept radio as we then knew it alive.

By the time the Motorola system became the standard, AM station owners were
mostly concerned with finding a way to program their AMs so as to stop
losing audience. That meant an alternative to anything being done on FM.

Add to that the urban sprawl of American cities, which were growing out of
the coverage areas of most of the stations licenced to them. So few AM
stations could compete with the coverage and quality of the better FM
allocations that they were forced to do niche formats, religion, gospel (now
a big FM format in many markets) and ethnic formats.

When you consider that in the top 100 markets, there is an average of only
two viable AM signals, you can understand that a number of factors came
together in a three decade long perfect storm that has left AM with as
little as 9% to 10% of listening in rated markets (Houston 12%, but less
than 5% under 45 years of age is a good big market example).


Untrue. FM Stereo was introduced in about 1961, and the decade before
had
seen total FM stations go from over 1000 in 1950 to around 500 in 1960.

I didn't mean FM radio stations. I meant FM recievers. When FM began
it's
turnaround around 1970 or so, most of the FM receivers were mono.

Most of FM listening is mono even today. Few clock radios, kitchen radios,
desk radios, shop radios are stereo. And the effects of noise make in care
stereo minimal at most driving speeds.

SNIP

You are so full of it.

I enjoy FM stereo in the car all the time. Noise is only a problem with
the windows down. You probably need to buy a better car with a decent
radio in it instead of one with that HD crap radio.

I've owned one radio that was FM mono for the work cubicle where I
wanted it small and simple as possible. I didn't want to use earphones
so I kept the volume down to where it was indiscernible the next cube
over.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:


Try re-reading the paragraph above your ill-reasoned one. I said
"decently
rated" quite clearly. KVEN is rated 39th in the market in 25-54 year old
listeners (what in the industry are called the "sales demos") and is 27th
in
listeners of all ages (12+ being the term used for that.). It's billings
have fallen by more than half since the year 2000, and currently are
about
10% of the level attained by the market's leading billers, KCAQ, KHAY and
KXLM.

I don't need to reread it master of BS. You have this false notion that
there are only like 2 stations that have any signal in a market, which
of course is BS.

No, I have the proof, as does any other subscriber to Arbitron, that people
will not listen to weak signals that are subject to noise, interference or
difficult to tune in.

Anyway, you are obfuscating. I clearly said that AM stations with any
appreciable ratings are not playing music. You went off on an unrelated and
irrelevant tangent.

I get around 13 stations over S9 where I live 60 miles north of LA and
of course there are another dozen that put in a decent relatively noise
fee signal on a portable most places.

But most of the ones that have a good signal TO YOU do not get listening by
anyone else that is measurable.

In fact, most places in the US don't have much music on AM unless, as I
said, it is in Farsi or Russian or Polish, to name three... or the
station
is one of several forms of Gospel that have mostly 55 and over listeners.

I don't believe it.

Name me ONE non-ethnic AM that plays only music and has salable ratings
(meaning under age 55 listening).


No, I would say, as I always have, that what you may pick up on your
$5000
radio does not have the signal strength, clarity and consistency the
average
listener seeks. There are probably hundreds or relatively easy out of
market
AM signals you can get, between daytime and night. Listeners only pick
the
ones that have monster signals, as proven by decades of research.

This is part of your BS story. I just used the table radios for S meter
readings and the portable for listening. Over a dozen come in noise free
on the portable. Actually almost 2 dozen come in noise free.

But nobody else listens to them, even in your specific ZIP code area, as I
explained to you before.

Again, all of this is to divert attention from the fact that you cited a
music AM in your metro area and I gave you the facts that it is rated poorly
(39th in 25-54 in the Ventura / Ornard MSA) and has plummeting revenue and
almost no billing now. That's typical for music AMs unless they are ones
like KIRN that are the only service to an unserved community... in this
case, Persians.

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:


You are so full of it.

I enjoy FM stereo in the car all the time. Noise is only a problem with
the windows down. You probably need to buy a better car with a decent
radio in it instead of one with that HD crap radio.

You do not have the same noise floor in a car as you do in a quiet living
room. Because of this, and that fact that just under a third of radio
listening is in the car. we adjust processing so that low level momets are
brought up by AGC / leveling action so they will not be below the normal or
average noise floor in a moving car.

The HD radio in my vehicle is a module added to the base BMW computer /
radio / GPS / vehicle control system. It does not affect the very good
design of both the car and the radio.

I've owned one radio that was FM mono for the work cubicle where I
wanted it small and simple as possible. I didn't want to use earphones
so I kept the volume down to where it was indiscernible the next cube
over.

Most radio listening is done on that kind of radio.

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:


Try re-reading the paragraph above your ill-reasoned one. I said
"decently rated" quite clearly. KVEN is rated 39th in the market
in 25-54 year old listeners (what in the industry are called the
"sales demos") and is 27th in listeners of all ages (12+ being the
term used for that.). It's billings have fallen by more than half
since the year 2000, and currently are about 10% of the level
attained by the market's leading billers, KCAQ, KHAY and KXLM.

I don't need to reread it master of BS. You have this false notion
that there are only like 2 stations that have any signal in a
market, which of course is BS.

No, I have the proof, as does any other subscriber to Arbitron, that
people will not listen to weak signals that are subject to noise,
interference or difficult to tune in.

That's not proof. That's just advertising marketing BS.

Anyway, you are obfuscating. I clearly said that AM stations with any
appreciable ratings are not playing music. You went off on an
unrelated and irrelevant tangent.

I'm not obfuscating. You have a one note point to make and this is just
your way to obscure it.

I get around 13 stations over S9 where I live 60 miles north of LA
and of course there are another dozen that put in a decent
relatively noise fee signal on a portable most places.

But most of the ones that have a good signal TO YOU do not get
listening by anyone else that is measurable.

Yeah, and you see that you fall back to that marketing crap. It doesn't
get enough market share so it does not exist.

In fact, most places in the US don't have much music on AM unless,
as I said, it is in Farsi or Russian or Polish, to name three...
or the station is one of several forms of Gospel that have mostly
55 and over listeners.

I don't believe it.

Name me ONE non-ethnic AM that plays only music and has salable
ratings (meaning under age 55 listening).

I don't prove the existence of radio stations by what ratings they get.
That's your scam.

No, I would say, as I always have, that what you may pick up on
your $5000 radio does not have the signal strength, clarity and
consistency the average listener seeks. There are probably
hundreds or relatively easy out of market AM signals you can get,
between daytime and night. Listeners only pick the ones that have
monster signals, as proven by decades of research.

This is part of your BS story. I just used the table radios for S
meter readings and the portable for listening. Over a dozen come in
noise free on the portable. Actually almost 2 dozen come in noise
free.

But nobody else listens to them, even in your specific ZIP code area,
as I explained to you before.

Again, all of this is to divert attention from the fact that you
cited a music AM in your metro area and I gave you the facts that it
is rated poorly (39th in 25-54 in the Ventura / Ornard MSA) and has
plummeting revenue and almost no billing now. That's typical for
music AMs unless they are ones like KIRN that are the only service to
an unserved community... in this case, Persians.

Nope. That is just a part of the fantasy marketing world you live in.
This is just a part of the marketing fantasy you relive every day. Wake
up the reader of this news group know you game.

First it's "The station does not exist."

Next "The station does not have enough signal to be noise free so people
will listen."

Then the final fall back position " The station does not get ratings so
it might as well not exist."

So now that we are down to 2 stations in a market we can implement HD
with no problems right? What BS!

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...


[snip]

But it took a full decade for FM to achieve listening parity... which
is why we say that HD is a long, long term process.

Individualized media and internet delivery are here now, in a somewhat
clunky form. The technology in these areas can be developed at a dizzying
speed.

Do the broadcasters have the time for a long, long term process?

I wouldn't mind IBOC so much if other people were getting alot of use out of
it. Radio did a quick job of getting a bunch of IBOC equipment on the air.
But after that, what's happened? Radio prices are still high, and for the
most part, the few that exist are either deskbound or dash bound. And why
buy a radio anyway? There's only a meager supply of quality unique
programming.

I think I have an understanding of some of the big problems. Chipsets will
remain expensive unless production becomes huge. And there's the matter of
ibiquity's licensing fee. And broadcasters want their most popular
programming on the main channels.

But, if HD radio is a sure winner, they ought to back their bet with real
money. Where's their faith?

I doubt this current half assed approach will seem worthwhile after the full
decade is up.


And it is way to late to
save AM now that owners are moving the "good" formats to FM because the AM
listener base is so old they can't sell advertising.



Then they should just turn the damn noisemakers off. That interstation
racket is killing our hearing aids.

Frank Dresser