On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:37:53 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote:


"David" wrote in message
.. .

Analog has a place in the future, probably the MW band at night
included (at least from 640-1200 Kilohertz). The blowtorches don't
need HD, the local stations do.


Many blowtorches do, too, on AM/MW. Our KTNQ is only listenable within its
10 mv/m to 12 mv/m contour due to local noise levels in LA. The HD signal
actually covers better than the 10 mv/m analog one does... on a 50 kw AM.


I can't get anything in Santa Clarita, except KNX.

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...

I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off
skywave,
and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings
outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros).

My argument is as follows.

First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of
regional and national commercials on AMBCB.

Yes, there are lots of companies that advertise in many if not all the rated
markets in the US. But when they do, they buy advertising that is priced
based on thelocal audience in the metro to which the station is licensed.
Very seldom are even adjacent markets where a station may have some
listening even taken into consideration. There is no interest in skywave
coverage, as most such buys are placed only for 6 AM to 7 PM, and not at
night. Most of what you hear at night on AM are bonus spots and PI deals.

Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network
programming.

Actually, very few stations carry network programming. And most have the
ability to take it a la carte, and run the spots (which are the payment)
when4ever they want as long as it is in 6 AM to 7 PM.

Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a
networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB
on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can
respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase
so the advertising does its job either way.

But that is not how advertising is bought. It is bot based on Cost Per Point
only in the local market. If there are fringe benefits the advertiser does
not pay for them... and, again, nearly all sales are in daylight hours.

So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard
it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station?

Yes. Unless it is one of a handful of PI accounts (where a station is paid
per inquiry) that use night radio to peddle C. C. Crane Radios and such.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You and Peter seem to be two people
that have knowledge of the AMBCB market.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article ,
D Peter Maus wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
.
..
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:
I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one,
I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his
internet connection.
As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in
radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative
towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX
organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the
detriment of those of us who work in the field.

Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is
skywave night listening, the other poings are moot.
Two things:

1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in this news
group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for trouble.
I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW DXers. For
some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting as an industry and
profession. Some even write letters to the FCC questioning the
qualifications of licensees who are doing exactly what the FCC wants:
improving local service.
2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and national
commercials on radio so the long distance reception of stations does pay
off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to continue to support your
wrongheaded assumptions.
I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off
skywave,
and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings
outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros).

My argument is as follows.

First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of
regional and national commercials on AMBCB.

Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network
programming.

Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a
networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB
on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can
respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase
so the advertising does its job either way.

So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard
it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station?


Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully
track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be
statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals.
Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels
become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station
manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries
personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous
reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of
market station report tossed.

Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception
of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and
advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific,
methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter
sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to
referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with
tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple
toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even
involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each
daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of
market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all
cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market
reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either
anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value.

There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers
buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle
shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and
did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember
buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in
response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the
time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?"
Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback
in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening
credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron.

I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among
highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little
effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales
did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE,
running the same spots, were responsible.

And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY.
Though I don't recall any out of market advertising.

KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with
similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual
circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the
practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers
making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even
though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated
major market station.

Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a
station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its
advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of
market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no
effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the
effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But
statistically, it's below the noise floor.

So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe,
yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the
advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it.

If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each
other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it.

But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first
thought, much less a second.

Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of
my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but
listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming
I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI,
KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in
Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in
Ventura for AMBCB.

I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news
and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events.

If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public
service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1.

Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you
enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name
when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra.

The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly
endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This
is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX,
which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local
programming at times but I don't listen to it.

So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated
national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of
commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local
injected by the station to which I'm currently listening.

Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick
the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny
reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local
jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at
all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same
program.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

"David" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:45:21 GMT, Telamon
wrote:

Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a
networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB
on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can
respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase
so the advertising does its job either way.

So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard
it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station?


They can tell because frequently each station gets a commercial with a
different 800 number on it.

Those 800 number ads are seldom paid commercials. They are paid for based on
the number of calls, which is often zero... but they run in times where the
station has nothing salable so there is some gain. You will find them used
as filler in syndicated shows, which have commercial windows. The syndicator
puts these spots in, and if the station has no better spots (sold ones) they
run as fill. This is like the 800 adds on cable TV. If the local cable
system has paid ads, they superimpose them. Otherwise, they make a few cents
on the "100 Greatest Hymns" collection.

"David" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:37:53 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote:


"David" wrote in message
. ..

Analog has a place in the future, probably the MW band at night
included (at least from 640-1200 Kilohertz). The blowtorches don't
need HD, the local stations do.


Many blowtorches do, too, on AM/MW. Our KTNQ is only listenable within its
10 mv/m to 12 mv/m contour due to local noise levels in LA. The HD signal
actually covers better than the 10 mv/m analog one does... on a 50 kw AM.


I can't get anything in Santa Clarita, except KNX.

Proves the case, doesn't it?

"Telamon" wrote in message
...

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You and Peter seem to be two people
that have knowledge of the AMBCB market.


Peter is a pro, and generally more patient than I am (er, ah, well...) and
always has interesting points of view. Thanks for the comment. All in all,
there is essentially no strong revenue stream for AM radio after 7 or 8 PM
unless there is play by play sports.

"Telamon" wrote in message
...

So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated
national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of
commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local
injected by the station to which I'm currently listening.

Actually, the way those syndicated shows are sold to advertisers is by
market penetration. The syndicator picks off several minutes an hour in the
show that they sell, and in exchange, the station gets nearly all shows for
free. The syndicator has a list of markets, and sells based on the total
market by market reach. The advertiser is buying 50 or 100 or 300 markets,
not "national coverage." A syndicated night show is rough as few
advertisers buy radio at night. This is why often stations rerun daytime
shows at night.

The syndicator's profit comes 100% from the sale of the spot inventory,
except for a few big shows like Rush which also get paid cash from the
stations.

This is the sad truth, but it doesn't make things any better for MW
DXers.Us hobbyists have to stop wasting time with lamentations, though,
and get the radio turned on and see what IS out there now free for the
taking.

May you be correct !

On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 00:40:28 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote:


"David" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:45:21 GMT, Telamon
wrote:

Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a
networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB
on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can
respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase
so the advertising does its job either way.

So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard
it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station?


They can tell because frequently each station gets a commercial with a
different 800 number on it.

Those 800 number ads are seldom paid commercials. They are paid for based on
the number of calls, which is often zero... but they run in times where the
station has nothing salable so there is some gain. You will find them used
as filler in syndicated shows, which have commercial windows. The syndicator
puts these spots in, and if the station has no better spots (sold ones) they
run as fill. This is like the 800 adds on cable TV. If the local cable
system has paid ads, they superimpose them. Otherwise, they make a few cents
on the "100 Greatest Hymns" collection.


I am painfully aware of how Direct Response works.