"Thomas Horne" wrote in message
link.net...
Jimmie D wrote:
"Bud--" wrote in message
.. .
Jimmie D wrote:

Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for
your electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to
the electrical ground. Dont even think about using this for lightning
protection. Nothing like having lightning run in on your plumbing
while taking a bath or have it run in on yor ground and eat about $7K
worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie
Jimmie

DE KB3OPR

I am an electrician by craft. The US National Electric Code Requires
that underground metal water piping on the premise be used as a
grounding electrode for the electrical system. There is no way around
it. No matter how fast people talk you cannot avoid using an
underground metal piping system as a grounding electrode unless the
electrical inspector is incompetent.
--
Tom Horne

Tom you are confusing grounding with bonding, the plumbing should be
bonded to ground but not used for ground, at least this is getting to
be the rule in most places. I know that using the plumbing for ground
is still acceptaable in places and in a lot of places it is still
acceptable if if the local code permitted it at the time it was
installed(grandfathering)..

An electrician confusing grounding and bonding - that is pretty funny.

From the US National Electrical Code
?250.50 Grounding Electrode System
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6)
that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded
together to form the grounding electrode system.?

?250.52(A)(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe?
(10 feet or more metal in earth)

Using underground metal water pipe as a grounding electrode is REQUIRED.
And this has been a requirement for a very long time. Local codes may be
different from the NEC, but it is unlikely they are different on this.

And if you just "bond" metal water pipe it will work as a grounding
electrode anyway.

--
bud--


True enough but there is a difference, grounding is connecting to earth
bonding is tying conductive structures together so they are at equal
potential. Ground is a single point that everything else is bonded.
Ground should be a stucture that the qualified electrician should be
familar with not plumbing that may or may not be intact. If you dont
believe me just try to get an electrical inspection on a new home without
a ground rod installed.

BTW the NEC is a minimum standard not a guide on how to wire your
house.or perform grounding and bonding.

You wouldnt believe what electricians dont know, like checking phase
rotation before turning on a new 200KW UPS. or megging out lines before
turning on new parking lot lights or making sure a generator is not
backfeeding a line before working on it. All things I have seen
electricans screw up in the past year.

Jimmie

Jimmie
I can assure you I don't do that sort of careless nonsense. I can also
assure you that whenever I'm involved before the foundation is poured or
at least prior to it being back filled there will be no driven rods on
that job. They are the single least effective electrode you can install.
When I have to install driven rods, such as for a heavy up, I will stack
them using rod couplers until I'm under twenty five ohms and perform a
witnessed test for the inspector. I consider eight foot driven rods a
complete waste of time. Mind you I'll install them when I'm forced to but
you will usually find mine driven through the bottom of a three foot deep
trench on at least twenty feet of bare copper number two AWG grounding
electrode conductor.

As for the US NEC being a minimum standard that is not always true. In at
least ten states it is both the minimum and the maximum standard that a
public electrical inspector may apply. So called "min max" states do not
allow the local governments to amend the US NEC. Were the US NEC is the
minimum standard you have to use underground metal water piping as a
grounding electrode whether or not it jibes with your religious beliefs
about what constitutes an electrode or not. If you were bonding the
plumbing you could do that with a conductor sized for the largest branch
circuit supplying an appliance that is attached to the plumbing. When you
are using the piping as an electrode you must size the conductor to the
size of the service entry conductors. People like W Tom cannot bring
themselves to admit that underground metal water piping is an effective
grounding electrode and worse still that it more effective then most of
the other electrodes listed in the US NEC at least in homes. I always
check the impedance of my grounding electrodes and that's what the
measurements say to me.
--
Tom Horne

The point I am trying to make is that the ground system must be sufficent on
its own and not need to connect to the buildings plumbing to improve the
ground. You should never depend on the plumbing especially on residential
work because you can not maintain control of modifications to that plumbing
system. Good example is my in-laws home, for years the house connected to
the well via 1 inch metal pipe and this was also the ground for the house as
it was built in 1974. When the new well was drilled plastic pipe was
installed to the new well with no groundwire going back to the well casing.
A couple of years later a new HVAC system was installed and when there was
an accidental short circuit the well pump was fried. This would not have
happened if a proper grounding system had been installed at the house
instead of relying on the plumbing. Professionals have a responsibility to
idiot -proof there work as much as possible but you know how it is, sooner
or later someone makes a better idiot.

The fact that the water pipes may be effective or even better than the
installed ground really have nothing to do with anything. Ground sytems are
for grounding, Plumbing is for water. Electrians dont do plumbing and
plumbers dont rewire homes.

Jimmie

Jimmie D wrote:
[big snip]
...and plumbers dont rewire homes.

Jimmie

They're not *supposed* to! :-(
Bryan

Jimmie D wrote:
"Thomas Horne" wrote in message
link.net...
Jimmie D wrote:
"Bud--" wrote in message
.. .
Jimmie D wrote:

Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for
your electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to
the electrical ground. Dont even think about using this for lightning
protection. Nothing like having lightning run in on your plumbing
while taking a bath or have it run in on yor ground and eat about $7K
worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie
Jimmie

DE KB3OPR

I am an electrician by craft. The US National Electric Code Requires
that underground metal water piping on the premise be used as a
grounding electrode for the electrical system. There is no way around
it. No matter how fast people talk you cannot avoid using an
underground metal piping system as a grounding electrode unless the
electrical inspector is incompetent.
--
Tom Horne
Tom you are confusing grounding with bonding, the plumbing should be
bonded to ground but not used for ground, at least this is getting to
be the rule in most places. I know that using the plumbing for ground
is still acceptaable in places and in a lot of places it is still
acceptable if if the local code permitted it at the time it was
installed(grandfathering)..
An electrician confusing grounding and bonding - that is pretty funny.

From the US National Electrical Code
?250.50 Grounding Electrode System
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6)
that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded
together to form the grounding electrode system.?

?250.52(A)(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe?
(10 feet or more metal in earth)

Using underground metal water pipe as a grounding electrode is REQUIRED.
And this has been a requirement for a very long time. Local codes may be
different from the NEC, but it is unlikely they are different on this.

And if you just "bond" metal water pipe it will work as a grounding
electrode anyway.

--
bud--

True enough but there is a difference, grounding is connecting to earth
bonding is tying conductive structures together so they are at equal
potential. Ground is a single point that everything else is bonded.
Ground should be a stucture that the qualified electrician should be
familar with not plumbing that may or may not be intact. If you dont
believe me just try to get an electrical inspection on a new home without
a ground rod installed.

BTW the NEC is a minimum standard not a guide on how to wire your
house.or perform grounding and bonding.

You wouldnt believe what electricians dont know, like checking phase
rotation before turning on a new 200KW UPS. or megging out lines before
turning on new parking lot lights or making sure a generator is not
backfeeding a line before working on it. All things I have seen
electricans screw up in the past year.

Jimmie
Jimmie
I can assure you I don't do that sort of careless nonsense. I can also
assure you that whenever I'm involved before the foundation is poured or
at least prior to it being back filled there will be no driven rods on
that job. They are the single least effective electrode you can install.
When I have to install driven rods, such as for a heavy up, I will stack
them using rod couplers until I'm under twenty five ohms and perform a
witnessed test for the inspector. I consider eight foot driven rods a
complete waste of time. Mind you I'll install them when I'm forced to but
you will usually find mine driven through the bottom of a three foot deep
trench on at least twenty feet of bare copper number two AWG grounding
electrode conductor.

As for the US NEC being a minimum standard that is not always true. In at
least ten states it is both the minimum and the maximum standard that a
public electrical inspector may apply. So called "min max" states do not
allow the local governments to amend the US NEC. Were the US NEC is the
minimum standard you have to use underground metal water piping as a
grounding electrode whether or not it jibes with your religious beliefs
about what constitutes an electrode or not. If you were bonding the
plumbing you could do that with a conductor sized for the largest branch
circuit supplying an appliance that is attached to the plumbing. When you
are using the piping as an electrode you must size the conductor to the
size of the service entry conductors. People like W Tom cannot bring
themselves to admit that underground metal water piping is an effective
grounding electrode and worse still that it more effective then most of
the other electrodes listed in the US NEC at least in homes. I always
check the impedance of my grounding electrodes and that's what the
measurements say to me.
--
Tom Horne

The point I am trying to make is that the ground system must be sufficent on
its own and not need to connect to the buildings plumbing to improve the
ground. You should never depend on the plumbing especially on residential
work because you can not maintain control of modifications to that plumbing
system. Good example is my in-laws home, for years the house connected to
the well via 1 inch metal pipe and this was also the ground for the house as
it was built in 1974. When the new well was drilled plastic pipe was
installed to the new well with no groundwire going back to the well casing.
A couple of years later a new HVAC system was installed and when there was
an accidental short circuit the well pump was fried. This would not have
happened if a proper grounding system had been installed at the house
instead of relying on the plumbing. Professionals have a responsibility to
idiot -proof there work as much as possible but you know how it is, sooner
or later someone makes a better idiot.

The fact that the water pipes may be effective or even better than the
installed ground really have nothing to do with anything. Ground sytems are
for grounding, Plumbing is for water. Electrians dont do plumbing and
plumbers dont rewire homes.

Jimmie


And my point is that your opinion does not jibe with the National
Electric Code.
--
Tom Horne

Not only that, BUT IF you use copper pipe, you
may expect electrolysis , which will actually
eat the pipe, in 4 or 5 years, in soil. If you
go to your parts house (Lowes, or Home Depot), you
will notice unions which are INSULATED for copper
plumbing . I had a water line replaced with copper
the plumber said with those unions, can get 25-30
years out of your new pipe, without, more like
5 years before holes appear! It ain't cheap
replaceing couple hundred feet of water supply
pipe! This also affects steel piping, tho not
so rapidly!
Jim NN7K

Thomas Horne wrote:
Jimmie D wrote:
"Thomas Horne" wrote in message
link.net...
Jimmie D wrote:
"Bud--" wrote in message
.. .
Jimmie D wrote:

Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground
for your electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just
bonded to the electrical ground. Dont even think about using
this for lightning protection. Nothing like having lightning run
in on your plumbing while taking a bath or have it run in on yor
ground and eat about $7K worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie
Jimmie

"Thomas Horne" wrote in message
k.net...
Jimmie D wrote:
"Thomas Horne" wrote in message
link.net...
Jimmie D wrote:
"Bud--" wrote in message
.. .
Jimmie D wrote:

Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for
your electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to
the electrical ground. Dont even think about using this for
lightning protection. Nothing like having lightning run in on your
plumbing while taking a bath or have it run in on yor ground and
eat about $7K worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie
Jimmie

DE KB3OPR

I am an electrician by craft. The US National Electric Code
Requires that underground metal water piping on the premise be used
as a grounding electrode for the electrical system. There is no way
around it. No matter how fast people talk you cannot avoid using an
underground metal piping system as a grounding electrode unless the
electrical inspector is incompetent.
--
Tom Horne
Tom you are confusing grounding with bonding, the plumbing should be
bonded to ground but not used for ground, at least this is getting to
be the rule in most places. I know that using the plumbing for ground
is still acceptaable in places and in a lot of places it is still
acceptable if if the local code permitted it at the time it was
installed(grandfathering)..
An electrician confusing grounding and bonding - that is pretty funny.

From the US National Electrical Code
?250.50 Grounding Electrode System
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6)
that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded
together to form the grounding electrode system.?

?250.52(A)(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe?
(10 feet or more metal in earth)

Using underground metal water pipe as a grounding electrode is
REQUIRED. And this has been a requirement for a very long time. Local
codes may be different from the NEC, but it is unlikely they are
different on this.

And if you just "bond" metal water pipe it will work as a grounding
electrode anyway.

--
bud--

True enough but there is a difference, grounding is connecting to earth
bonding is tying conductive structures together so they are at equal
potential. Ground is a single point that everything else is bonded.
Ground should be a stucture that the qualified electrician should be
familar with not plumbing that may or may not be intact. If you dont
believe me just try to get an electrical inspection on a new home
without a ground rod installed.

BTW the NEC is a minimum standard not a guide on how to wire your
house.or perform grounding and bonding.

You wouldnt believe what electricians dont know, like checking phase
rotation before turning on a new 200KW UPS. or megging out lines before
turning on new parking lot lights or making sure a generator is not
backfeeding a line before working on it. All things I have seen
electricans screw up in the past year.

Jimmie
Jimmie
I can assure you I don't do that sort of careless nonsense. I can also
assure you that whenever I'm involved before the foundation is poured or
at least prior to it being back filled there will be no driven rods on
that job. They are the single least effective electrode you can
install. When I have to install driven rods, such as for a heavy up, I
will stack them using rod couplers until I'm under twenty five ohms and
perform a witnessed test for the inspector. I consider eight foot
driven rods a complete waste of time. Mind you I'll install them when
I'm forced to but you will usually find mine driven through the bottom
of a three foot deep trench on at least twenty feet of bare copper
number two AWG grounding electrode conductor.

As for the US NEC being a minimum standard that is not always true. In
at least ten states it is both the minimum and the maximum standard that
a public electrical inspector may apply. So called "min max" states do
not allow the local governments to amend the US NEC. Were the US NEC is
the minimum standard you have to use underground metal water piping as a
grounding electrode whether or not it jibes with your religious beliefs
about what constitutes an electrode or not. If you were bonding the
plumbing you could do that with a conductor sized for the largest branch
circuit supplying an appliance that is attached to the plumbing. When
you are using the piping as an electrode you must size the conductor to
the size of the service entry conductors. People like W Tom cannot
bring themselves to admit that underground metal water piping is an
effective grounding electrode and worse still that it more effective
then most of the other electrodes listed in the US NEC at least in
homes. I always check the impedance of my grounding electrodes and
that's what the measurements say to me.
--
Tom Horne

The point I am trying to make is that the ground system must be sufficent
on its own and not need to connect to the buildings plumbing to improve
the ground. You should never depend on the plumbing especially on
residential work because you can not maintain control of modifications
to that plumbing system. Good example is my in-laws home, for years the
house connected to the well via 1 inch metal pipe and this was also the
ground for the house as it was built in 1974. When the new well was
drilled plastic pipe was installed to the new well with no groundwire
going back to the well casing. A couple of years later a new HVAC system
was installed and when there was an accidental short circuit the well
pump was fried. This would not have happened if a proper grounding system
had been installed at the house instead of relying on the plumbing.
Professionals have a responsibility to idiot -proof there work as much as
possible but you know how it is, sooner or later someone makes a better
idiot.

The fact that the water pipes may be effective or even better than the
installed ground really have nothing to do with anything. Ground sytems
are for grounding, Plumbing is for water. Electrians dont do plumbing and
plumbers dont rewire homes.

Jimmie


And my point is that your opinion does not jibe with the National Electric
Code.
--
Tom Horne

Please Tom, tell me in what way that the grounding system should be
sufficent on its own and not having to rely on the plumbing to provide
grounding for an electrical system in violation of the NEC. Also please tell
me how you intend to prevent the scenario I discribed where the ground
system was completely disconnected from the home when the well's metal
plumbing was replaced with plastic.

The Code is the min and max that an inspector can apply to an inspection
This means that the inspector cant find fault with using plumbing for
grounding if this is what the code says, it doesnt mean that the inspector
can find fault if it is built better than code requirements, so again I
say the code is written to a minimum spec. Your own definition of min max
confirms this. Traditionally the NEC has the lowest minimum standard and the
state and local codes usually have a higher standard., there may be some
exceptions to this. I will will stipulate that using plumbing for ground may
be "to code" in some places but it still is not a good way to ground your
house and definately should not be used for a lightning ground.

Jimmie

Jim, NN7K wrote:
"Not only that, BUT IF you use copper pipe, you may expect electrolysis,
which will actually eat the pipe, in 4 or 5 years, in soil."

I don`t have my CRC Handbook here with its metal activity series but I
was a sailor in WW-2 who replaced many zinc electrodes installed as
sacrificial anodes to protect other metals on the ship. I`ve also built
electrolytic cells which used copper and zinc as electrodes and sea
water as the electrolyte. I guarantee it is the zinc which is eaten
while the copper remains intact. Copper is poisonous to most sea
organisms and thus is not likely fouled. Don`t worry about copper it
does not waste away in the earth. I`ve worked in broadcast stations with
radials buried in the 1930`s. They are still pristine. Zinc is the metal
used to coat steel pipe when it is galvanized.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

"Richard Harrison" wrote in message
...
Jim, NN7K wrote:
"Not only that, BUT IF you use copper pipe, you may expect electrolysis,
which will actually eat the pipe, in 4 or 5 years, in soil."

I don`t have my CRC Handbook here with its metal activity series but I
was a sailor in WW-2 who replaced many zinc electrodes installed as
sacrificial anodes to protect other metals on the ship. I`ve also built
electrolytic cells which used copper and zinc as electrodes and sea
water as the electrolyte. I guarantee it is the zinc which is eaten
while the copper remains intact. Copper is poisonous to most sea
organisms and thus is not likely fouled. Don`t worry about copper it
does not waste away in the earth. I`ve worked in broadcast stations with
radials buried in the 1930`s. They are still pristine. Zinc is the metal
used to coat steel pipe when it is galvanized.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Richard, Thats not how it waste away. It is disovled from the inside by
galvanic action. If you couple copper to galvanized pipe you must use a
special coupler that electrically isolates the copper from the galvanized
pipe. This is usually a brass union with a neopreme, I think, insulator.

"Jimmie D" wrote in
:
Richard, Thats not how it waste away. It is disovled from the inside
by galvanic action. If you couple copper to galvanized pipe you must
use a special coupler that electrically isolates the copper from the
galvanized pipe. This is usually a brass union with a neopreme, I
think, insulator.


Hi Jimmie,

Copper is higher on the Galvanic series than either Zinc or Iron.
(Zinc is lowest in the series aside from Magnesium)

While there is a possibility - though none that I know of - that for some
reason that copper may corrode before Zinc or its iron substrate, usually
the lower member of the series goes away first. Do you know what the
effect is?

I have heard of some low quality copper pipe that tends to spring
leaks after quite a few years. Perhaps this is what we are talking anout?

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA

Jimmie D wrote:

Thomas Horne wrote:
Jimmie D wrote:
Thomas Horne wrote:
Jimmie D wrote:
Bud wrote:
Jimmie D wrote:

Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground
for
your electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded
to
the electrical ground. Dont even think about using this for
lightning protection. Nothing like having lightning run in on
your
plumbing while taking a bath or have it run in on yor ground and
eat about $7K worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie
Jimmie

DE KB3OPR

I am an electrician by craft. The US National Electric Code
Requires that underground metal water piping on the premise be
used
as a grounding electrode for the electrical system. There is no
way
around it. No matter how fast people talk you cannot avoid using
an
underground metal piping system as a grounding electrode unless
the
electrical inspector is incompetent.
--
Tom Horne
Tom you are confusing grounding with bonding, the plumbing should
be
bonded to ground but not used for ground, at least this is getting
to
be the rule in most places. I know that using the plumbing for
ground
is still acceptaable in places and in a lot of places it is still
acceptable if if the local code permitted it at the time it was
installed(grandfathering)..
An electrician confusing grounding and bonding - that is pretty
funny.

From the US National Electrical Code
?250.50 Grounding Electrode System
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6)
that are present at each building or structure served shall be
bonded
together to form the grounding electrode system.?

?250.52(A)(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe?
(10 feet or more metal in earth)

Using underground metal water pipe as a grounding electrode is
REQUIRED. And this has been a requirement for a very long time.
Local
codes may be different from the NEC, but it is unlikely they are
different on this.

And if you just "bond" metal water pipe it will work as a grounding
electrode anyway.

--
bud--

True enough but there is a difference, grounding is connecting to
earth
bonding is tying conductive structures together so they are at equal
potential. Ground is a single point that everything else is bonded.
Ground should be a stucture that the qualified electrician should be
familar with not plumbing that may or may not be intact. If you dont
believe me just try to get an electrical inspection on a new home
without a ground rod installed.

BTW the NEC is a minimum standard not a guide on how to wire your
house.or perform grounding and bonding.

You wouldnt believe what electricians dont know, like checking phase
rotation before turning on a new 200KW UPS. or megging out lines
before
turning on new parking lot lights or making sure a generator is not
backfeeding a line before working on it. All things I have seen
electricans screw up in the past year.

Jimmie
Jimmie
I can assure you I don't do that sort of careless nonsense. I can
also
assure you that whenever I'm involved before the foundation is poured
or
at least prior to it being back filled there will be no driven rods on
that job. They are the single least effective electrode you can
install. When I have to install driven rods, such as for a heavy up, I
will stack them using rod couplers until I'm under twenty five ohms
and
perform a witnessed test for the inspector. I consider eight foot
driven rods a complete waste of time. Mind you I'll install them when
I'm forced to but you will usually find mine driven through the bottom
of a three foot deep trench on at least twenty feet of bare copper
number two AWG grounding electrode conductor.

As for the US NEC being a minimum standard that is not always true.
In
at least ten states it is both the minimum and the maximum standard
that
a public electrical inspector may apply. So called "min max" states
do
not allow the local governments to amend the US NEC. Were the US NEC
is
the minimum standard you have to use underground metal water piping as
a
grounding electrode whether or not it jibes with your religious
beliefs
about what constitutes an electrode or not. If you were bonding the
plumbing you could do that with a conductor sized for the largest
branch
circuit supplying an appliance that is attached to the plumbing. When
you are using the piping as an electrode you must size the conductor
to
the size of the service entry conductors. People like W Tom cannot
bring themselves to admit that underground metal water piping is an
effective grounding electrode and worse still that it more effective
then most of the other electrodes listed in the US NEC at least in
homes. I always check the impedance of my grounding electrodes and
that's what the measurements say to me.
--
Tom Horne

The point I am trying to make is that the ground system must be
sufficent
on its own and not need to connect to the buildings plumbing to improve
the ground. You should never depend on the plumbing especially on
residential work because you can not maintain control of modifications
to that plumbing system. Good example is my in-laws home, for years the
house connected to the well via 1 inch metal pipe and this was also the
ground for the house as it was built in 1974. When the new well was
drilled plastic pipe was installed to the new well with no groundwire
going back to the well casing. A couple of years later a new HVAC
system
was installed and when there was an accidental short circuit the well
pump was fried. This would not have happened if a proper grounding
system
had been installed at the house instead of relying on the plumbing.
Professionals have a responsibility to idiot -proof there work as much
as
possible but you know how it is, sooner or later someone makes a better
idiot.

The fact that the water pipes may be effective or even better than the
installed ground really have nothing to do with anything. Ground sytems
are for grounding, Plumbing is for water. Electrians dont do plumbing
and
plumbers dont rewire homes.

Jimmie


And my point is that your opinion does not jibe with the National
Electric
Code.
--
Tom Horne

Please Tom, tell me in what way that the grounding system should be
sufficent on its own and not having to rely on the plumbing to provide
grounding for an electrical system in violation of the NEC. Also please
tell
me how you intend to prevent the scenario I discribed where the ground
system was completely disconnected from the home when the well's metal
plumbing was replaced with plastic.

The Code is the min and max that an inspector can apply to an inspection
This means that the inspector cant find fault with using plumbing for
grounding if this is what the code says, it doesnt mean that the inspector
can find fault if it is built better than code requirements, so again I
say the code is written to a minimum spec. Your own definition of min max
confirms this. Traditionally the NEC has the lowest minimum standard and
the
state and local codes usually have a higher standard., there may be some
exceptions to this. I will will stipulate that using plumbing for ground
may
be "to code" in some places but it still is not a good way to ground your
house and definately should not be used for a lightning ground.

Jimmie

I've seen this thread go back & forth. Back when my voice hadn't yet
changed, my folks bought a small piece of land for weekend travel-trailer
camping. At the time, there was power available but no water. We wanted AC
power for the otherwise self-contained trailer, and followed the
requirements set down by the county PUD. We installed a utility pole, with
service entrance, weatherproof breaker panel, and weatherproof outlet. All
we had available for grounding was an 8' rod driven into the ground next to
the pole. There was NO water pipe with which to connect the ground wire.

Fast forward to recent years (my voice has long-since changed, but now what
graying hair I have left is falling out). When I decided to re-pour the
concrete slab for my kitchen porch next to my service entrance, I found what
was left of a 4' x 3/8" ground rod embedded in the old concrete (the entire
#14 wire connected to it had also been embedded in the concrete.) There's
no evidence of a connection to the water system. I replaced the rod with an
8" x 1/2" unit from the home improvement box store, and connected it to the
service entrance with a #4 wire.

Thankfully, when the utility pole that serves my house continued to lean
away from my house (and the neutral opened), the ground rod kept L1 & L2
from swinging too wildly. There's a transformer on the pole that serves my
house, with a ground rod next to the pole. I guesstimated the ground
resistance at about 1 or 2 ohms. Of course, when they repaired their drop
wire, the PUD had to inspect my service entrance to make sure it met the
minimum requirement. The entire pole & guying has since been changed.
Still, I keep an eye on the slack in the drop wire to my house!

An interesting observation about ground rods... a 4'x3/8" rod = 56.55 sq. in
surface area, while a 8'x1/2" rod = 150.80 sq. in surface area. Of course,
more metal in the ground could only be better. Does anyone have a nice BIG
copper kettle for sale? ;^)

Bryan WA7PRC

Jimmy D wrote:
"That is not how it wastes away."

No. It would be the steel pipe which wastes away when coupled with
copper. An insulated coupling may slow the process but the copper is not
electrolytically eaten away.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI