Is a copper to copper contact always necessary in
an antenna or does solder provide the necessary
continuity when joining wire?

I am disregarding the special case of magnetic
loops where RsubA must be kept low. I am also
disregarding the matter of mechanical integrity.

In my case I am looking at soldering radials to
a piece of copper wire at the base of an antenna, and
also adding a bit of length to the radiating
element.

What about the use of wire nuts to join wires?

The antenna is an HF marconi in an inverted-L configuration.

Thanks for any advice on the matter.

Irv VE6BP
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--------------------
Irv Finkleman,
Grampa/Ex-Navy/Old Fart/Ham Radio VE6BP
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

"Irv Finkleman" wrote in message
...
Is a copper to copper contact always necessary in
an antenna or does solder provide the necessary
continuity when joining wire?



Irv

I'd think you'd want a solid mechanical connection..
Even disregarding mechanical issues, a lightning
discharge would blow apart a soldered connection.
Have you considered using electricians' split bolt
type connectors to make the splices?

Pete

Irv Finkleman wrote in :

Is a copper to copper contact always necessary in
an antenna or does solder provide the necessary
continuity when joining wire?

Are you really asking are conductors other than copper (eg solder) are
suitable for antennas? I think you know the answer to that.


I am disregarding the special case of magnetic
loops where RsubA must be kept low. I am also
disregarding the matter of mechanical integrity.

In my case I am looking at soldering radials to
a piece of copper wire at the base of an antenna, and
also adding a bit of length to the radiating
element.

I note you excluded mechanical integrity, nevertheless...

I suggest you not depend solely on solder for retention of wires. One
day, your antenna conductors might be called upon to carry high current
(eg lightning), and it might be better if the solder didn't just melt and
allow the wires to fall apart.


What about the use of wire nuts to join wires?


In some ways, you might as well just twist the wires together. Some wire
nuts come with a water+air exclusing medium (grease), but otherwise they
are not a lot different to twisting the wires together except they may
introduce another metal (in the case of the ones with a metallic spring
inside) to the contact mix. Twisting wires together might be more
successfull for power applications where there is sufficient voltage to
overcome an oxide layer, for RF receive I would use solder or terminals
that apply considerable pressure to the joined wires.

Remember that oxided wire connections can cause havoc with receivers and
transmitters, the non-linear joint causing harmonic generation and
mixing.

Owen

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:12:03 GMT, Irv Finkleman
wrote:

Is a copper to copper contact always necessary in
an antenna or does solder provide the necessary
continuity when joining wire?

Hi Irv,

In the Navy, I taught (per the syllabus) that you made a gas-tight
electrical connection between conductors and sealed it with solder.
Solder was not expected to maintain the electrical or mechanical
connection. An example would be a Western Union Splice, then flowed
with solder.

I am disregarding the special case of magnetic
loops where RsubA must be kept low. I am also
disregarding the matter of mechanical integrity.

That pretty much conforms to what I say above. However, having said
that, Lead, Tin and other alloys are usually good conductors when used
in suitable quantity (or with sufficient surface area). There is
nothing wrong with a soldered joint in a magnetic loop, although a
soldered loop can easily be done poorly.

There are other issues of weathering of solder, and galvanic
reactions. This argues sealing the solder with rubber or synthetic
coating, and/or examining the metals involved. This is usually a rare
issue to be concerned about.

In my case I am looking at soldering radials to
a piece of copper wire at the base of an antenna, and
also adding a bit of length to the radiating
element.

What about the use of wire nuts to join wires?

They enforce the gas-tight connection and preserve the seal of that
interface through spring force, but usually in a dry environment (I
suppose you can find weather proof versions).

The antenna is an HF marconi in an inverted-L configuration.

Thanks for any advice on the matter.

Irv VE6BP

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Thanks Pete -- I'm not really concerned about mechanical connection
as there will be no physical strain. Yes! I am definitely considering
'split bolt' (I call them wire nuts -- not sure where I got the
expression).

Uncle Peter wrote:

"Irv Finkleman" wrote in message
...
Is a copper to copper contact always necessary in
an antenna or does solder provide the necessary
continuity when joining wire?



Irv

I'd think you'd want a solid mechanical connection..
Even disregarding mechanical issues, a lightning
discharge would blow apart a soldered connection.
Have you considered using electricians' split bolt
type connectors to make the splices?

Pete

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--------------------------------------
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--------------------
Irv Finkleman,
Grampa/Ex-Navy/Old Fart/Ham Radio VE6BP
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Owen Duffy wrote:

Irv Finkleman wrote in :

Is a copper to copper contact always necessary in
an antenna or does solder provide the necessary
continuity when joining wire?

Are you really asking are conductors other than copper (eg solder) are
suitable for antennas? I think you know the answer to that.

No -- everything will be copper to copper.

I note you excluded mechanical integrity, nevertheless...

I suggest you not depend solely on solder for retention of wires. One
day, your antenna conductors might be called upon to carry high current
(eg lightning), and it might be better if the solder didn't just melt and
allow the wires to fall apart.

There will be no mechanical strain on the wires. They will be connected
to a common ring of copper surrounding the base of the connected.


In some ways, you might as well just twist the wires together. Some wire
nuts come with a water+air exclusing medium (grease), but otherwise they
are not a lot different to twisting the wires together except they may
introduce another metal (in the case of the ones with a metallic spring
inside) to the contact mix. Twisting wires together might be more
successfull for power applications where there is sufficient voltage to
overcome an oxide layer, for RF receive I would use solder or terminals
that apply considerable pressure to the joined wires.

This is for a radial system, and I basically operate QRP or in a tough
fight might run 50w! I'll will consider a water/air excluding grease
if I use wire nuts - thanks for the tip!

Remember that oxided wire connections can cause havoc with receivers and
transmitters, the non-linear joint causing harmonic generation and
mixing.

Oh yeah! Been there before! :-)

Owen

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--------------------
Irv Finkleman,
Grampa/Ex-Navy/Old Fart/Ham Radio VE6BP
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Richard Clark wrote:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:12:03 GMT, Irv Finkleman
wrote:

Is a copper to copper contact always necessary in
an antenna or does solder provide the necessary
continuity when joining wire?

Hi Irv,

In the Navy, I taught (per the syllabus) that you made a gas-tight
electrical connection between conductors and sealed it with solder.
Solder was not expected to maintain the electrical or mechanical
connection. An example would be a Western Union Splice, then flowed
with solder.

Yep! The good old 'Western Union Splice' one of the first things
I learned way back when.

I am disregarding the special case of magnetic
loops where RsubA must be kept low. I am also
disregarding the matter of mechanical integrity.

That pretty much conforms to what I say above. However, having said
that, Lead, Tin and other alloys are usually good conductors when used
in suitable quantity (or with sufficient surface area). There is
nothing wrong with a soldered joint in a magnetic loop, although a
soldered loop can easily be done poorly.

I must have had a Senior's moment. I was thinking of a mechanical
joint rather than a soldered one. In a magloop, which is one of the
projects I'm working on now, I plan to use copper and silver-solder for
sure.

There are other issues of weathering of solder, and galvanic
reactions. This argues sealing the solder with rubber or synthetic
coating, and/or examining the metals involved. This is usually a rare
issue to be concerned about.

As per Owen's post I will consider a sealant or protection of some
sort. In any event, the major effort is installing radials which
will be soldered to a ring of copper wire around the base of the
antenna -- it will be readily accessible for inspection and
repair if required. I don't want to have to to that too often
though -- and I sure as heck don't want to run out and dig through
the snow when it's 30 below! :-)

In my case I am looking at soldering radials to
a piece of copper wire at the base of an antenna, and
also adding a bit of length to the radiating
element.

What about the use of wire nuts to join wires?

They enforce the gas-tight connection and preserve the seal of that
interface through spring force, but usually in a dry environment (I
suppose you can find weather proof versions).

Wire nuts with suitable protective coating after connection
may just be the easiest way to go. I only want to put out
8 radials. As for the radiating element, it doesn't have a lot
of strain on it either, but I think for temporary testing I'll just
use a quick twist of the wire and solder it until I find the
length I want -- then I'll do a Western Union bit with just a
few turns, then solder flood it. It is #12 and shouldn't
be a problem to twist in a fancy manner.

Thanks for the ideas.

Irv


The antenna is an HF marconi in an inverted-L configuration.

Thanks for any advice on the matter.

Irv VE6BP

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

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--------------------
Irv Finkleman,
Grampa/Ex-Navy/Old Fart/Ham Radio VE6BP
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Irv Finkleman wrote in :

Thanks Pete -- I'm not really concerned about mechanical connection
as there will be no physical strain. Yes! I am definitely considering
'split bolt' (I call them wire nuts -- not sure where I got the
expression).

Here is a picture of what most of us understand to be wire nuts:
http://cableorganizer.com/wire-connectors/

Quite a different thing to split bolt line taps.
http://www.vk1od.net/post/post04.jpg shows a split bolt on the earth
electrode.

My comments about wire nuts were about wire nuts as most of us understand.

I would not use wire nuts for your earth system.

Split bolt connectors are fine for your purpose.

Owen

"Owen Duffy" wrote in message
...
Here is a picture of what most of us understand to be wire nuts:
http://cableorganizer.com/wire-connectors/

Quite a different thing to split bolt line taps.
http://www.vk1od.net/post/post04.jpg shows a split bolt on the earth
electrode.



Split bolt electrical connectors look like this Stateside:

http://ebusiness.ilsco.com/webapp/wc...1&categoryId=1

Used a lot for electrical connections to utility power transformers,
etc.

Pete

"Uncle Peter" wrote in
:


"Owen Duffy" wrote in message
...
Here is a picture of what most of us understand to be wire nuts:
http://cableorganizer.com/wire-connectors/

Quite a different thing to split bolt line taps.
http://www.vk1od.net/post/post04.jpg shows a split bolt on the earth
electrode.



Split bolt electrical connectors look like this Stateside:

http://ebusiness.ilsco.com/webapp/wc...goryDisplay?st
oreId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=1&categoryId=1

Used a lot for electrical connections to utility power transformers,
etc.

Yes Pete, same as I showed, but better detail in your pic. Insulating
covers are also available which sort of hides the internals.

Owen