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In Bert writes:

In news:1321147426.4755.14.camel@Thinkpad Bill Horne
wrote:

Diesel is (so I've heard) less expensive than gas,

Not around here, it's not.

At the moment, regular unleaded gas is going for about $3.25/gal, while
diesel is about $4.00/gal.

The few times I've actually looked at the price of diesel, it's always
been more expensive than gasoline.

--
Bert Hyman W0RSB St. Paul, MN

True, but what's important to look at is the overall cost relative to
the energy produced.

Diesel fuel has more energy per gallon than gasoline (145,000 BTU's
vs. 125,000):

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel3.htm

Diesel engines, which use the Carnot cycle, are more efficient,
recovering about 45% of the energy from diesel fuel, versus 30% of the
energy for a gasoline engine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine

So the increased energy content and the the increased energy efficiency
means that diesel engines will have an energy advantage over a gasoline
engine of about 1.75 to 1 per gallon of fuel. This more than
compensates for the greater cost ratio of about 1.25 to 1. Diesel
engines may have other drawbacks that were pointed out in this thread
(maintenance, heating, noise, pollution), but energy efficiency and cost
of fuel isn't one of them. That's why it's used in transportation that
requires a lot of energy and fuel (railroads, long-haul trucking,
container ships, etc.).

Conversely, E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) has less energy content:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

and engines that are designed to burn both gasoline and E85 are not
optimally efficient to burn E85 (requires higher compression).
Therefore, though E85 is much cheaper per gallon, it is only worthwhile
to use when the "price spread" is at least 15% or more. Seems that
there's a web site that surveys prices by region, and identifies when
and where this price spread makes it cost-advantaged to use E85
vs. gasoline:

http://www.e85prices.com/

Locally, this usually happens when the price of gasoline goes much over
$4/gallon.

- --
73, Paul W. Schleck, K3FU

http://www.novia.net/~pschleck/
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On 11/18/2011 1:58 PM, Paul W. Schleck wrote:

True, but what's important to look at is the overall cost relative to
the energy produced. [snip]

So the increased energy content and the the increased energy efficiency
means that diesel engines will have an energy advantage over a gasoline
engine of about 1.75 to 1 per gallon of fuel. This more than
compensates for the greater cost ratio of about 1.25 to 1.

Paul,

Thanks for filling in the background on this. I'm reminded of the time
my sister rented a diesel-powered truck, and told me that she did it
because, although diesel was slightly higher than gas at the pump, the
truck would get over thirty miles per gallon.

Of course, the relative efficiency of the fuels is an important factor,
but I'm in need of advice from those who have operated BOTH gas and
diesel generators, because I need to know what the other costs a

1. Purchase price
2. Maintenance expenses
3. Fuel storage
4. Reliability

So, if you've owned or operated /both/ diesel and gas generators, please
chime in. Thanks!

Bill, W1AC

P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my list)
about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like
restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND about
other hams who have actually done it.


--
Bill Horne
(Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly)

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:26:24 EST, Bill Horne
wrote:

P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my list)
about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like
restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND about
other hams who have actually done it.

Biodiesel - all the buses here run that. Exhaust smells like
French-fries!
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

In Phil Kane
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:26:24 EST, Bill Horne
wrote:

P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my
list) about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like
restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND
about other hams who have actually done it.

Biodiesel - all the buses here run that. Exhaust smells like
French-fries!

Since this is for off-road use, investigate sources of diesel intended
for farm or other non-highway uses, which will not have the Federal tax
applied.

--
Bert Hyman W0RSB St. Paul, MN

On Sun, 2011-11-20 at 16:01 -0500, Bert wrote:
In Phil Kane
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:26:24 EST, Bill Horne
wrote:

P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my
list) about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like

restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND
about other hams who have actually done it.

Biodiesel - all the buses here run that. Exhaust smells like
French-fries!

Since this is for off-road use, investigate sources of diesel intended
for farm or other non-highway uses, which will not have the Federal tax
applied.

Please pardon my ignorance, but I always thought that #2 fuel oil /is/
diesel fuel without the road tax. Am I wrong?

73,

Bill, W1AC

(Filter QRM to email me directly)

On 11/20/11 4:22 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
...
Please pardon my ignorance, but I always thought that #2 fuel oil /is/
diesel fuel without the road tax. Am I wrong?


Diesel fuel these days is 'ultra low' in sulfur...15 ppm, max. I think
regular fuel oil is much higher in sulfur. There may also be other
additives in diesel fuel but I'm not sure what. 'Off road' diesel is
colored red and is not subject to road taxes so it's cheaper but you'd
better not be caught with it in an over-the-road vehicle or face some
pretty stiff fines. I'd think it would be legal in a generator.

HTH...

73... Mark, AA7TA

On 11/20/2011 6:22 PM, Bill Horne wrote:

Please pardon my ignorance, but I always thought that #2 fuel oil /is/
diesel fuel without the road tax. Am I wrong?

Not driving a Diesel I do not recall but it is either #2 Furnace = #1
Diesel or #1 equals #2.. I do not recall which but a dealer will know.

Though it is true that "Stuff" grows in Diesel tanks if it's allowed to
set (had that happen at work) The proper additives can prevent that for
the most part, if not completely.

--
Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business.

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On Sun, 2011-11-20 at 15:34 -0500, Phil Kane wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:26:24 EST, Bill Horne
wrote:

P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my list)

about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like
restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND about

other hams who have actually done it.

Biodiesel - all the buses here run that. Exhaust smells like
French-fries!

Yes, but can a /generator/ run it? What are the upsides and downsides?

Bill
P.S. Jay Leno remarked that even though Willy Nelson converted his tour
bus to biodiesel, police sniffer dogs were still chasing it, so it
probably didn't smell like French fries.

(Filter QRM to email me directly)

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:14:33 EST, Bill Horne
wrote:

P.S. Jay Leno remarked that even though Willy Nelson converted his tour
bus to biodiesel, police sniffer dogs were still chasing it, so it
probably didn't smell like French fries.

Probably because they were tracking the air exchanger exhaust/vent....
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

On 11/20/2011 6:14 PM, Bill Horne wrote:

P.S. Jay Leno remarked that even though Willy Nelson converted his tour
bus to biodiesel, police sniffer dogs were still chasing it, so it
probably didn't smell like French fries.

Police Sniffer dogs are not much attracted to French Fries, and like a
good Ham radio operator can ignore the "noise" or in this case the nose
noise, and smell the Signal (MJ) underneath the fries.

I have had the pleasure of petting a few of those puppies.

They are real nice when you are petting them.. Not so nice when they are
working .

--
Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business.

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