On Feb 16, 11:54�pm, wrote:
On Feb 16, 5:49 pm, wrote:
On Feb 16, 3:55?pm, "
wrote:

* *fraudulently claimed a Hawaiian
Post Office Box address as being his "residence," one
that would allow him to obtain a Hawaiian amateur
radio station call sign. ?

Len:

I suggest you read Part 97 again.

I suggest you go to your local Post Office and ask
them about renting
a PO Box then using it for other people.

Why?

What matters is what the regulations were back then, not
what they are now.

The regulations do not require that someone give the FCC
their "residence". All the FCC requires is a valid mailing
address.

Just any valid mailing address?

That question has already been answered. See (1) below

In the case of certain callsigns, the mailing address
must be in certain locations, such as Hawaii, but there is
no residence requirement.

Just any valid mailing address?

That question has already been answered. See (1) below

FCC used to care about where a licensee lived, and the
actual station location. But all that changed many years
ago, and all they have required for may years is a valid
mailing address where the licensee may receive mail
from FCC.

(1) a valid mailing address where the licensee may
receive mail from FCC.

What do the Postal Regulations say about it?

I don't know what they said about it in 2000. That's
what matters.

There are a number of retired "RV" people nowadays who
don't really have a "residence" in the classic sense. They
live in their RVs, travelling the country as they see fit, and
living wherever their travel leads them. At least some of them
are radio amateurs.

Of course they have a "mailing address", which is often just
a post office box. Someone checks their mail regularly, and
deals with important items as needed. FCC and the post office
have no problem with this, and no fraud is involved.

In some rural areas, people maintain post office boxes
"in town" and pick up their mail there when they get to town.
FCC and the post office have no problem with this, and no
fraud is involved.

How are these cases any different from the use of a Hawaiian
post office box?

After all, the FCC did accept and process the vanity call
applications, and did issue the callsigns. Perhaps it was
simply a misunderstanding of the intent of the rules,
rather than the letter of the law.

The government can be defrauded as well as anyone,

That's true.

and there was no misunderstanding.

How do you know?

Obviously the vanity callsign applications met the
letter of the law - otherwise FCC would not have
processed them nor issued the callsigns. Whether
the met the *intent* of the law is another issue, and
intent is a matter of interpretation.

*It was poor amateur practice.

Why?

Were the callsigns that were cancelled ones that other
amateurs wanted, but could not get?

Have any of the cancelled callsigns been reissued
through the vanity callsign program?

FCC has issued some vanity callsigns that some consider
inappropriate for the amateur radio service. Those
callsigns
would not normally be issued in sequence, so the FCC is
aware of the controversy, yet they issued those callsigns
when requested through the vanity program.

We're not talking about Kim, we're talking about
Michael P. Deignan of the RF Commandos.

The subject is the letter of the law regarding vanity callsigns
versus the intent of that law. There's also the question of
good vs. poor amateur practice.

Kim is not the only amateur, nor the first, to have a callsign
that some consider inappropriate. Indeed, she was not the
first to have a callsign with a certain particular suffix.

MD is not the only amateur
to be trustee of multiple club callsigns.

There was lengthy discussion here about the appropriateness
of certain Amateur Radio vanity callsigns. The defense was
that if the FCC issued the callsigns, they were appropriate.
Although I was initially unconvinced, I changed my mind.

Is that not correct?

Besides - all that stuff about the club calls is more than six
years old. Why are you living in the past?

In ham years that was barely yesterday.

If it is OK to discuss those old callsign events, then it's
also OK to discuss other old events, such as boasts of
getting an Extra out of the box, or of opposing real estate
zoning changes. Etc.

Is it because the
person who held all those calls was and is an advocate of
complete Morse Code test elimination?

It's because the individual incessantly tells others how to
live their ham-lives,

Where?

The person involved hadn't posted here for *years*. His
posts are rather few in number, and quite short and
to-the-point.

Other individuals who post here, including one who isn't even
a radio amateur, incessantly tell others how to live their
ham-lives. Is that wrong?

then defrauds his friend and the FCC.

How was anyone defrauded?

Was there some sort of penalty, such as a forfeiture of money
or an operator license suspension/revocation?

What brought the whole issue to FCC's attention, anyway?
Did someone want one of those callsigns?

Jim, N2EY

wrote:

What matters is what the regulations were back then, not
what they are now.

Exactly.

I've had a PO Box for years. Having a rural mainland address, there are
times when my mail will collect for weeks at a time when I'm not home
(having that ocean-going trawler based in WA takes a lot of my time...) I
also don't like having clients mail me checks to my mainland home, so I use
a PO Box.

From time to time, folks I work on projects with also receive mail at my PO
box. Case in point: About a year ago I was working on a project with "Mark".
We needed a piece of software to complete the job, so "Mark" ordered the
software for us on my company credit card. Rather than it coming addressed
to "My Company, My PO Box" (the correct ship-to address which is also my CC
billing address) it was shipped to "Mark, My PO Box".

The USPS delivered it just fine. Now, from time to time, "Mark" gets mail at
my PO Box. Apparently the company sold his name on a mailing list. Still
haven't heard a peep from the Postmaster. I suspect "Mark" could also
receive non-junk-mail at my PO box just fine. I suspect the Postmaster
doesn't care. After all, if anything "bad" was ever associated with my PO
Box, the Postmaster knows where to find me.


How are these cases any different from the use of a
Hawaiian post office box?

Brian doesn't have one?


MD is not the only amateur to be trustee of multiple club
callsigns.

Only 1 club callsign at the moment, which is used exclusively on our beacons
used for DF foxhunts.


What brought the whole issue to FCC's attention, anyway?

Riley's first letter to me references coorespondence from Jeff. Since there
is no official coorespondence in the record to suggest otherwise, it is my
personal opinion that Jeff did.

73
kh6hz

On Feb 17, 2:10 pm, "KH6HZ" wrote:
wrote:
What matters is what the regulations were back then, not
what they are now.

Exactly.

No, not even close. We're not talking about now.

Deignan signed an agreement with the USPS back then. Jeffrey Hermann
signed an agreement with the USPS back then.

I've had a PO Box for years.

Then you know better.

Having a rural mainland address, there are
times when my mail will collect for weeks at a time when I'm not home
(having that ocean-going trawler based in WA takes a lot of my time...) I
also don't like having clients mail me checks to my mainland home, so I use
a PO Box.

That's certainly a legitimate use for a PO Box, but it is not
Hermann's PO Box, and that is the box in question. BTW, there was a
12th callsign at your street address issued to a YL. Don't you trust
her to keep your mail from stacking up or blowing away?

From time to time, folks I work on projects with also receive mail at my PO
box. Case in point: About a year ago I was working on a project with "Mark".
We needed a piece of software to complete the job, so "Mark" ordered the
software for us on my company credit card. Rather than it coming addressed
to "My Company, My PO Box" (the correct ship-to address which is also my CC
billing address) it was shipped to "Mark, My PO Box".

Again, "Mark" and your PO Box are not the subject of this discussion.
Hermann's box in Hawaii is.

The USPS delivered it just fine. Now, from time to time, "Mark" gets mail at
my PO Box. Apparently the company sold his name on a mailing list. Still
haven't heard a peep from the Postmaster. I suspect "Mark" could also
receive non-junk-mail at my PO box just fine. I suspect the Postmaster
doesn't care. After all, if anything "bad" was ever associated with my PO
Box, the Postmaster knows where to find me.

So basically, until charges are filed, no crime has occurred. Nice
diversion, nice defense.

How are these cases any different from the use of a
Hawaiian post office box?

Brian doesn't have one?

Not presently.

MD is not the only amateur to be trustee of multiple club
callsigns.

Only 1 club callsign at the moment, which is used exclusively on our beacons
used for DF foxhunts.

Almost interesting. Most any other DF club seems to be able to get by
with the callsign of the beacon owner with a "stroke B" to indicate
that its a beacon.

What brought the whole issue to FCC's attention, anyway?

Riley's first letter to me references coorespondence from Jeff. Since there
is no official coorespondence in the record to suggest otherwise, it is my
personal opinion that Jeff did.

73
kh6hz

Sounds like "Hot Water" and "Cold Feet." Greed cost Mike a friend.

wrote:

Then you know

Yes, I do. A PO Box can be for an individual, a business, or a household. In
the case of the latter do, multiple individuals may receive mail there.

BTW, there was a 12th callsign at your street address issued
to a YL.

There never has been "12" callsigns. Try counting again.


Don't you trust
her to keep your mail from stacking up or blowing away?

Nope. Living on a rural route, my mailbox gets destroyed at least twice a
winter by snowplows.


Again, "Mark" and your PO Box are not the subject of this discussion.
Hermann's box in Hawaii is.

Irrelevant. You claim it is "illegal" and "fraudulent" to have multiple
people use the same PO box. There was no such regulation codified in the
regulations in the late 90's. Nor is there any such regulation, for that
matter, codified today.


So basically, until charges are filed, no crime has occurred.

If a "crime" was being committed, without a doubt the PostMaster would be
the first to notice it, and, without a doubt, bring it to my attention (or,
alert the appropriate authorities), since I see him at least twice a month.


Almost interesting. Most any other DF club seems to be able to get by
with the callsign of the beacon owner with a "stroke B" to indicate
that its a beacon.

I prefer to have a separate, dedicated callsign, for beacon transmissions.


Sounds like "Hot Water" and "Cold Feet." Greed cost Mike a friend.

You're privvy to our friendship too? Wow. You're really psychic. Can I have
tonite's lotto #'s too while you're at it?

On Feb 17, 9:11 pm, "KH6HZ" wrote:
wrote:
Then you know

Yes, I do. A PO Box can be for an individual, a business, or a household. In
the case of the latter do, multiple individuals may receive mail there.

Then you're either Jeffrey Hermann, Jeffrey Hermann's relation, or
Jeffrey Hermann's employee.

How do you plead?

BTW, there was a 12th callsign at your street address issued
to a YL.

There never has been "12" callsigns. Try counting again.

Don't you trust
her to keep your mail from stacking up or blowing away?

Nope. Living on a rural route, my mailbox gets destroyed at least twice a
winter by snowplows.

Again, "Mark" and your PO Box are not the subject of this discussion.
Hermann's box in Hawaii is.

Irrelevant.

Not irrelevant. The subject is Hermann's PO Box in Hawaii.

You claim it is "illegal" and "fraudulent" to have multiple
people use the same PO box. There was no such regulation codified in the
regulations in the late 90's. Nor is there any such regulation, for that
matter, codified today.

So basically, until charges are filed, no crime has occurred.

If a "crime" was being committed, without a doubt the PostMaster would be
the first to notice it, and, without a doubt, bring it to my attention (or,
alert the appropriate authorities), since I see him at least twice a month.

Almost interesting. Most any other DF club seems to be able to get by
with the callsign of the beacon owner with a "stroke B" to indicate
that its a beacon.

I prefer to have a separate, dedicated callsign, for beacon transmissions.

Did you have 12 beacons?

Sounds like "Hot Water" and "Cold Feet." Greed cost Mike a friend.

You're privvy to our friendship too? Wow. You're really psychic. Can I have
tonite's lotto #'s too while you're at it?

wrote:
On Feb 17, 9:11 pm, "KH6HZ" wrote:
wrote:
Then you know
Yes, I do. A PO Box can be for an individual, a business, or a household. In
the case of the latter do, multiple individuals may receive mail there.

Then you're either Jeffrey Hermann, Jeffrey Hermann's relation, or
Jeffrey Hermann's employee.

For the entire time I lived overseas, my U.S. mailing address, as far as
the FCC was concerned was that of WA8JOC in Cincinnati. I did not
physically reside there. I was not an employee of WA8JOC. I am not
related to WA8JOC. Despite these things, my providing the FCC that
address did not constitute fraud and it broke no laws. It didn't
attempt to circumvent any laws.

WA8JOC's address is still the FCC address of record for a number of
Finnish radio amateurs who took and passed U.S. licensing exams.
My own address is the FCC address of record for one Finnish radio
amateur who took such an exam. The FCC says that applicants must have a
U.S. address, not that the applicant must reside at that address.
The applicant must either a U.S. Social Security number *or* a Taxpayer
Identification Number. Those Finnish hams were able to obtain a TIN
without ever having had a SSN. This was done after the FCC was
contacted directly about the situation and asked what should be done.

For all other mailing purposes in the U.S., my parents addresses in
Kentucky and in Georgia were used as my address of record in the United
States. I had not resided with them for decades. I broke no laws nor
did I commit fraud.

In 1993, I provided the Department of State a legal residence address
which is the same as the address I now have. No mail was being sent
here and there was not even a rural mailbox standing at this location.
I didn't live here until 2000.

You may now chew on these statements and attempt to reconcile them.

Dave K8MN

"Dave Heil" wrote:

You may now chew on these statements and attempt to reconcile them.

Damn Dave! You're gonna confuzzle all the riders on the Short Bus with all
these facts!

73
kh6hz

On Feb 18, 11:33 am, Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 17, 9:11 pm, "KH6HZ" wrote:
wrote:
Then you know
Yes, I do. A PO Box can be for an individual, a business, or a household. In
the case of the latter do, multiple individuals may receive mail there.

Then you're either Jeffrey Hermann, Jeffrey Hermann's relation, or
Jeffrey Hermann's employee.

For the entire time I lived overseas, my U.S. mailing address, as far as
the FCC was concerned was that of WA8JOC in Cincinnati. I did not
physically reside there. I was not an employee of WA8JOC. I am not
related to WA8JOC. Despite these things, my providing the FCC that
address did not constitute fraud and it broke no laws. It didn't
attempt to circumvent any laws.

WA8JOC's address is still the FCC address of record for a number of
Finnish radio amateurs who took and passed U.S. licensing exams.
My own address is the FCC address of record for one Finnish radio
amateur who took such an exam. The FCC says that applicants must have a
U.S. address, not that the applicant must reside at that address.
The applicant must either a U.S. Social Security number *or* a Taxpayer
Identification Number. Those Finnish hams were able to obtain a TIN
without ever having had a SSN. This was done after the FCC was
contacted directly about the situation and asked what should be done.

For all other mailing purposes in the U.S., my parents addresses in
Kentucky and in Georgia were used as my address of record in the United
States. I had not resided with them for decades. I broke no laws nor
did I commit fraud.

In 1993, I provided the Department of State a legal residence address
which is the same as the address I now have. No mail was being sent
here and there was not even a rural mailbox standing at this location.
I didn't live here until 2000.

You may now chew on these statements and attempt to reconcile them.

Dave K8MN

Were you, WA8JOC, any number of Finnish radio amateurs, or your
parents using Jeffrey Hermann's PO Box on Hawaii?

You must have missed the part where this is about the use of Jeffrey
Hermann's PO Box on Hawaii.

wrote:

Then you're either Jeffrey Hermann, Jeffrey Hermann's relation, or
Jeffrey Hermann's employee.

There is no regulation which states I have to be an employee or relation --
even today. Might want to brush up on the postal regulations.

On Feb 18, 12:34 pm, "KH6HZ" wrote:
wrote:
Then you're either Jeffrey Hermann, Jeffrey Hermann's relation, or
Jeffrey Hermann's employee.

There is no regulation which states I have to be an employee or relation --
even today. Might want to brush up on the postal regulations.

I was using your excuses above as to how you've loaned out your own PO
Box. Why did you provide them if they are irrelevant?

That you're a fraud on numerous accounts doesn't mean that
fraudulently using Jeff's PO Box was OK.