In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

Arnie,

Unfortunately we have too many people in this country who think freedom of
speech takes precedence over common decency. They don't realize or don't
care that by being inconsiderate in their choice of words or analogies that
people will discount what they say. It is more important to them to do it
their way rather than in a way that will get the audience on their side.

That sounds like the PCTA stance on retention of the code test.

EVERYONE HAS TO DO IT LIKE THEY DID IT. Because...

LHA

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...
(4) The public at large (ham radio operators) should NOT
be BURDENED with having to make choices; they
should not have the freedom to choose how to use
thier skills to the ends that they see fit; such is an
IMPOSITION upon them.

By eliminating the testing requirement for Morse code, we are seriously
undermining people's freedom of choice.

Incredible illogic!!!

Choices need to be based on sufficient knowledge of the subject.

The FCC determines what is necessary to pass THEIR requirements
for an amateur radio operator license.

Morse code is one of those areas where
a person needs to learn the basics and experience it before they have
sufficient knowledge.

Tested morse code proficiency was required by the GOVERNMENT
in the early days of radio for the first US radio regulatory agency.
Back then, on-off keying codes were the ONLY way to communicate
using early primitive radio. The GOVERNMENT's main reason for the
code test was so that all radio operators in all radio services could be
contacted in order to mitigate radio interference.

This is the year 2003, not 1912, not 1896, and not 1844 (the first year
of commercial code use on the Morse-Vail telegraph system). The
FCC stated publicly 13 years ago that the morse code test was NOT
a real requirement to determine if an amateur should be licensed. The
FCC stated that the only reason for retaining the code test in 1990 was
due to ITU-R S25.5.

Most of ITU-R S25 has been rewritten at WRC-03 and there is NO
international requirement for all administrations to administer any code
test. The new wording of S25.5 allows each administration to evaluate
the code test retention within that nation.

Keeping the test means that individuals will have a
better knowledge base upon which to choose whether or not to pursue Morse
code to proficient level.

Illogical reasoning. Licensing of radio amateurs in the USA is regulated
by the FCC. It is not regulated by any "ARS community." It is not
regulated by any amateur radio membership organization.

There is absolutely NO radio theory imparted by skill at morse code and
it does not serve any purpose in the FCC's determination of whether or
not an amateur radio license applicant should be granted a license.

No one is required to use Morse code after learning it.

Then there is NO reason to subject all amateur radio license applicants
to any morse code test, is there?

LHA

In article , "Arnie Macy"
writes:

"Len Over 21" wrote in part ...

Kiddo, I'm a few years older than YOU, but don't have any "ancestors" who
were in concentration camps. Instead, I've talked DIRECTLY to those who
were there, even a couple of ex-soldiers who helped liberate one camp. Lots
of those centers for Holocaust remembrance here in Los Angeles. Cut out
this totally artificial-to-the-subject "ancestral insult" crap. The word
"nazi" (all lower case) has come to mean what Clint said in the American
language of TODAY.
_________________________________________________ ___________________

I've also talked to them *directly*, Len. And to a person, they do not
accept the "modern" definition of the word -- and why should they? If you
had relatives that lived through it (and some that didn't) I strongly
suspect that you would feel differently.

My first wife was Reform Jew. All her older relatives made it out of
Germany via Denmark. I've talked with them at length at the time
and also with many others in the same situation. In the Fairfax area
of western Los Angeles. She died in late 1964, a cancer victim.

Are you now going to "lecture" me on the Holocaust of WW2? Are
you now going to assume some kind of superior moral attitude about
"ancestry" because you have such weak arguments on the retention
of morse code testing in an avocational hobby activity involving radio?

May your conscience be forever burdened by the souls of seven million
who died when you profess some kind of outrage in an argument over
code testing. That is a pathetically weak, petty connection you make.

There are several Centers for the Holocaust around the USA. I would
suggest you visit one and spend some time there and reflect on the
reality of that dreadful, terrible happening over half a century ago.

Yarmulke is optional during a visit. Carrying a code key during such a
visit isn't required.

P U T Z !

LHA

In article ,
(Brian) writes:

:-)

Ah, yes. It is so!

The October QST shows the DMSP night-time visual image of North
America, during the big black out. Very worthwhile to take a look at.
And not a single pixel of it was sent using Morse Code.

It wasn't?!?!?

Ohmygosh, and it is published by the ARRL !!!

Maybe "CW" doesn't get through as good as all the PCTA say it do!

:-)

In article , "Arnie Macy"
writes:

I am not trying to censor you, Clint. I am just highly offended by the use
of the word out of context. It is not a matter of freedom of speech, it is
a matter of decency. You could have easily chosen to use another word to
characterize the pro-code side of this debate and still made your point.
That's all I'm saying.

I am highly offended that you are so damn weak in your arguments for
morse code testing that you invoke some artificial outrage and
equate the code test arguments to the WW2 HOLOCAUST.

May the millions of souls who perished in all those camps weigh
heavily on your conscience for trying to USE that terrible happening
for your own petty little arguments over morse code testing.

LHA

It wasn't?!?!?

Ohmygosh, and it is published by the ARRL !!!

Maybe "CW" doesn't get through as good as all the PCTA say it do!

:-)



I, too, am likewise shocked.

From what i've learned, when all of society collapses, we retreat back into
clans and
have to forage for food and struggle for basic survival, it will be the
great morse code gods that will light the torch and the way back to
civilization.

What I don't understand is how civilization has managed to stay together
through
the tribulation without widespread knowledge and use of morse code, made
possible only of course by morse code training.

Clint
KB5ZHT

Tested morse code proficiency was required by the GOVERNMENT
in the early days of radio for the first US radio regulatory agency.
Back then, on-off keying codes were the ONLY way to communicate
using early primitive radio. The GOVERNMENT's main reason for the
code test was so that all radio operators in all radio services could
be
contacted in order to mitigate radio interference.

This is the year 2003, not 1912, not 1896, and not 1844 (the first year
of commercial code use on the Morse-Vail telegraph system). The
FCC stated publicly 13 years ago that the morse code test was NOT
a real requirement to determine if an amateur should be licensed. The
FCC stated that the only reason for retaining the code test in 1990 was
due to ITU-R S25.5.

Len, how DARE you point out the fact that times change and that the needs
of a public utility and hobby are to change to meet those needs. I think it
lacks understanding and sensitivity to the feelings of the PCTA gestapo
on your part to prove that with the passing of years, requirements
to meed modern demands likewise change.

I am flabbergasted; i'm taken aback. I just am overcome with such
frustration that I do not know what to say.

Clint
KB5ZHT

But, to answer your question: did you
do something illegal? Of course not. Insensitive, foolish and
intellectually bankrupt, perhaps - none of which are punishable
offences.

AH... nice dodge.... as you see, the very point of bringing up
the fact that "freedom of speech is frequently curtailed today,
such as the following examples..." would ONLY be brought
up to imply that what I did was NOT protected by the concept
of freedom of speech.

I put it to you; if this is NOT the case, if there is NO insinuation
of same, then WHY bring up the fact that there are certain
extreme cases where free speech is limited or halted, when I claim
the right to do so? Just for the purpose of conversation? I think
such a claim is paper thin and WEAK at best.

I suspect that the Nazi
(not the euphemistic full 'National Socialist' name that you now use
in this post) reference

the two are the same; but I digress, I am not sure what point you
are making by trying to distinguish the two

was used because it was the only card left to
play in an otherwise empty hand.

and at THAT point you are no longer discussing fact and are in
fact using opinion. The truth of the matter is that the PCTA crowd
is long out of factual support and credible reasoning to keep
the morse code testing; they abandon any further hopes now
with all sorts of dodging tactics- and if, by the way, you find
resentment to the use of nazi, I likewise, would find resentment
with the discriptions "too lazy", "dumb", "stupid", and "moron".
HOWEVER, instead of dropping to the ground and kicking
my feet and clenching my fist and screaming as a child does
when it's bottle is taken away, I am continueing the debate.



Due to the atrocities committed
during WW II, the word "Nazi" has severely negative connotations for a
large percentage of the world's population,

okay, you get the "DUH" award of the day for that one. KEEN grasp
of the obvious.

reaching beyond the
Hogan's Heroes-esque usage that you recognize and reminding them of
the horrors of that regime, for many in a very personal way.

believe me, I was not reaching for a humorous or laughable reference.
My use of a "will not accept change" analogy was intended at the latter
reality of the regime, not the former comedy that you referred to.

however, it was your right to enter the conversation, even if you
had nothing new factual to add, and you may continue doing so.

Care to point out the color of the grass and the sky now?
/reductio ad absurdum

Clint
KB5ZHT

I am highly offended that you are so damn weak in your arguments for
morse code testing that you invoke some artificial outrage and
equate the code test arguments to the WW2 HOLOCAUST.

May the millions of souls who perished in all those camps weigh
heavily on your conscience for trying to USE that terrible happening
for your own petty little arguments over morse code testing.

LHA


I share the outrage. I'm am seething with contempt. Um, what total
"jerks" they are. How insensitive.

Oh, by the way, i'm going to hypocritically overlook the fact that I
called THEM jerks, but when they use a referencing adjective
on me, i'm going to claim they have an empty hand on thier side
of the argument so that's the last card THEY have to play. But it's
okay for ME to do it.

And since I had to do it, so should YOU! Oh, wait, that's conflicting
with my previous remark.. oh, i'm so confused..... I want to
say one thing when it supports my argument on the one hand, but
I want to ignore and refute it when it doesn't on the next.....
Perhaps I need to go get a dictionary and look up this "logic" thing
and learn about it.

Clint
KB5ZHT

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ...
I think that may be a prevailing sentiment and character
trait of that crowd, actually.

After talking to them enough, you FINALLY get out
of them, as I have, the truth (but I suspected it all along).

It's is tantamount to an authoritarian's way of running
a government. Free market forces aren't to dictate
policy or courses of action, but the pointing of fingers
and swinging of riding crops IS. If you read the
various responses that a few of the PCTA types have
made to all of our comments, it all boils down to the following
doctrine...

(1) I had to do it, so should YOU.

Prevasive.

(2) It shouldn't be up to a free citizen to operate as he sees
fit; he should do what he's told, for the better good of
the existence of the archaic mode in question (CW)

How high?

(3) Shut up, your opinion in the operation of the government
(read: FCC) doesn't matter, and you should not have the
the right to have any influence on how it governs you;
you're the subject of the empire.

Daily.

(4) The public at large (ham radio operators) should NOT
be BURDENED with having to make choices; they
should not have the freedom to choose how to use
thier skills to the ends that they see fit; such is an
IMPOSITION upon them.

Belief in mandatory code use.