In article k.net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

(snip) However, as previously stated, you are not qualified
to make any judgment against the code testing requirement,
since you have not gained practical operational experience
in this mode. (snip)

Larry, one does not need to survive a house fire to make judgements about
fire safety. Or be attacked by a foreign government to make a judgement
about certain defense planning. Or live under a dictator to make judgements
about laws affecting our freedoms. Or experience a business failure to make
wise business judgements. Or experience anything else firsthand to make
value judgements about it.

Dwight, if Larrah had to do it, EVERYBODY has to do it.

(snip) You have not had that mode's unique benefits
and advantages proved to you over and over again through
years of daily OTA use. I have. (snip)

Again, this is not about Morse Code/CW use - it's about the code test
requirement. I can have that operational experience without a test
requirement and you can continue to enjoy the "mode's unique benefits and
advantages" long after the testing requirement is gone.

Larrah can't grasp the theological import of that clear and concise idea.
He is a self-professed "true believer" and cannot see ANY other religious
idea but his old cult status.

LHA

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:


Dwight, if Larrah had to do it, EVERYBODY has to do it.

Except YOU, Lennie. YOU never do anything but whine!

(snip) You have not had that mode's unique benefits
and advantages proved to you over and over again through
years of daily OTA use. I have. (snip)

Again, this is not about Morse Code/CW use - it's about the code test
requirement. I can have that operational experience without a test
requirement and you can continue to enjoy the "mode's unique benefits and
advantages" long after the testing requirement is gone.

Larrah can't grasp the theological import of that clear and concise idea.
He is a self-professed "true believer" and cannot see ANY other religious
idea but his old cult status.

Well, at least I'm a True Believer in something useful, unlike Lennie,
who only "believes" in sitting on the sidelines, throwing rotten apples
at those who are acquiring and utilizing useful communications skills.

73 de Larry, K3LT

In article , ospam
(Larry Roll K3LT) writes:

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

Dwight, if Larrah had to do it, EVERYBODY has to do it.

Except YOU, Lennie. YOU never do anything but whine!

I prefer a rose' with elaborate dinners, not the common table grappa in
a peasant cottage.

Sonny, I've probably done MORE in radio already than you've done in
your entire "career" as a hambone...er Ham.

You have PLAYED for years at ham radio, using ready-made
equipment, not really understanding what goes on behind your
ready-made front panels. Where are YOUR accomplishments in
amateur radio, your name posted as anywhere involving advancing
anything of the amateur state of the art? On FIDONET? Words,
self-glorifying yourself. On this newsgroup? More words, more
self-glorifying of yourself...plus an extreme amount of patronizing
"I am your moral superior" preacher without a church.

Yes, without a church. Up in Newington you couldn't be "honored"
when you showed up at their door so you upbraided ARRL for not
treating you as royalty. The Church of St. Hiram rejected you!

(snip) You have not had that mode's unique benefits
and advantages proved to you over and over again through
years of daily OTA use. I have. (snip)

Again, this is not about Morse Code/CW use - it's about the code test
requirement. I can have that operational experience without a test
requirement and you can continue to enjoy the "mode's unique benefits and
advantages" long after the testing requirement is gone.

Larrah can't grasp the theological import of that clear and concise idea.
He is a self-professed "true believer" and cannot see ANY other religious
idea but his old cult status.

Well, at least I'm a True Believer in something useful, unlike Lennie,
who only "believes" in sitting on the sidelines, throwing rotten apples
at those who are acquiring and utilizing useful communications skills.

Poor baby...someone threw a rotten apple at you and its worm also
turned on you?

Sonny, you've had your morse blinders on so long you can't understand
what others are saying, have said, and explained to you in detail.

Manual radiotelegraphy is NOT a "useful communications skill" anymore
unless you are a cult morseodist. Morse code is in its 159th year as a
slow, often error-prone technically simplistic communications tool. Only
a minority of amateurs use it. Morsemen are required at each radio
circuit end to make it effective at all.

I learned several kinds of RTTY and TTY over a half century ago and USED
them...including one that had 4 TTY circuits on the same FSK transmitter.
You think Martinez' PSK31 is "new and revolutionary?" Fine. Enjoy it, but
it is an innovation intended for real-time AMATEUR teletypewriting, not as
a state-of-the-art telecommunications method. I've set up and done 9600
Baud over a high HF circuit that all the nearby amateurs scoffed and
refused to believe when it worked successfully.

I've done far more modes/types of radio circuit modulation than is allocated
to amateurs and am engaged in some DTV test work at the moment. No
DTV is yet allocated to amateur bands. You've not done "matched filter"
multichannel since that isn't allowed in ham bands either...takes too long
to explain it to you so I won't bother...you've not shown you can handle
Ohm's Law successfully, let alone understand a cosine-squared pulse
shape.

Sonny, I've done radio communications from land in many places, from the
air while in a cockpit as well as cabin, on HF from the cabin of a moored
sailboat...the latter just a few months ago. NDAs forbid my mentioning
more, but you wouldn't understand the principles anyway. All kinds of
neat, new things, including not mentionable due to Title 18 USC.

At NO time was there ever any need to use morse code or demonstrate
morsemanship to successfully communicate. Not in a half century of
work that began with 24/7 primary communications service over HF trans-
Pacific. Never. Nada. Nyet. Nicht. No morsemanship needed at any
time.

Any you've done what? Playing with your radios, doing your beeping thing
the same as what was done by amateurs a half century ago or a full
century ago? What kind of "new technology" is on-off keying code use?
Who are you trying to fool other than children, fool?

LHA

In article , ospam
(Larry Roll K3LT) writes:

In article k.net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

This may be so, but it is an imperfect system being
directed by people with imperfect wisdom and
questionable motives. I say questionable because
their motives, for the most part, are entirely
self-serving.


Can you can show me one law in this country that wasn't advocated by
people with self-serving motives? Laws, by their very nature, tend to serve
the interests of at least someone. In reality, the only reason you're
pointing to this is because people are now advocating the change of a law
you happen to like (the code test requirement). And, of course, you would
like everyone to believe your position in all this is not at all
self-serving.

Dwight:

Which it isn't. The only outcome I desire is to preserve Morse code testing
in order to preserve the continued growth in the numbers of new hams who
have been exposed to training in this mode, in the interest of getting some
percentage of them to get to the point where they can effectively use it
OTA.

Riiiiiiiigt... :-)

Outside of sounding like low-grade bull****, that "reason" could be taken
as wanting a government WELFARE program to preserve morse code.

If morsemanship is so damn much fun, easy to learn, etc., then it can
be done WITHOUT needing the subsistence of any federal testing.

And it is my right as an American Citizen to make an
attempt to preserve this requirement. I am not
challenging your right to do the opposite, even though
you seem interesting in squelching my own efforts. What
are you afraid of?

I'm afraid of your motives in all this, Larry. I don't like the words I
hear from many advocating the continuation of the code testing requirement.
Those words often reek of bigotry, elitism, and discrimination against other
Americans.

One of the classic NCTA whines. Us horrible old PCTA's want to keep
Morse code going so that we can continue to demonstrate the dominance
of the white, middle-class, American male, who represents 5% of the
world's population yet consumes 25% of the planet's resources, and is
responsible for racism, bigotry, famine, disease, poverty, ethnic cleansing,
global warming, destruction of the environment, homophobia, halitosis,
and every other bad thing you can think of.

All Dwight said was that "your words reek of bigotry, elitism, and
discrimination against other Americans."

If you want to sound immature, do continue in your demonstrated mode
instead of trying to present cogent counter-arguments. [that would be a
refreshing change...]

Yawn! However, I guess that
works for you NCTA's, in the absence of any truly valid reason for the
further dumbing-down of licensing requirements in the ARS.

"Dumbing down" would be accurate for the Archaic Radiotelegraphy
Society (ARS).

However, in the United States, the Amateur Radio Service is NOT all
about morsemanship. Therefore, trying to KEEP the US ARS at 1930s
standards and practices is definitely a DUMBING DOWN...and you ARE
guilty of that.


Are you comfortable with some of the things said by those with
your position? Are you comfortable with some of the things you've said (the
garbage about a dumb downed America, your superiority, and so on)?

Don't look now, Dwight, but America *is* dumbed-down.

Roll, you've lost what little senses you have, even after that BA in "Human
Resources." :-(

It has been made
that way by a liberal, socialist media that continuously mocks traditional
values of morality, integrity, ingenuity and hard work, and makes it a virtue
to be dependent on government for cradle-to-grave life support.

...all because YOU didn't get a high-level position in Human Resources
(that you naturally deserve) on graduating college? Tsk, tsk, tsk.



Since it appears only a small minority of hams use Morse/CW on a regular
or routine basis,

And it is my desire that the ARS continues to have at least that "small
number"
of CW-using hams among it's ranks. I don't think that's too much to ask.

That can still be done...WITHOUT testing.

If YOU want to TRULY support personal initiative without "government
support" (and all its 'evil' socialist-like things) then you should be able
to eliminate the federal code test!

Except you do NOT. You keep demanding that the government continue
the federal code test in order to keep a few code users around...

H Y P O C R I S Y


And it is my belief that unless we preserve code testing, those goals cannot
be fully achieved.

You seem very confused. First you damn all that federal government
welfare...then you demand that the government keep on testing code.



Therefore, any testing requirement
must be judged within the context of each of these. The code testing
requirement fails in each regard.

Just the opposite is true. However, as previously stated, you are not
qualified to make any judgment against the code testing requirement,
since you have not gained practical operational experience in this mode.

Reducto ad absurdum judgement.

The FCC regulates and licenses ALL civil radio in the USA...yet none of
the staff nor commission of the FCC is required to pass any morse code
test in order to regulate US amateur radio.

You seem dumb and dumberer to the fact that every other radio service
(except a small part of maritime radio) in the USA has either DROPPED
morse code skill or never considered it as worthwhile when that service
started. Morse code is "alive" only in AMATEUR radio...and then only as
just another recreation.

You have not had that mode's unique benefits and advantages proved
to you over and over again through years of daily OTA use.

Every other radio service that ever used morse code, not only "daily"
but in 24/7 use, has DROPPED it. There were NO "benefits" or
"advantages" there that they found. Had there been any, they would
have kept it.

I have.

You are NOT any sort of "authority." You pretend to be one, but your
pretense is transparent.

And I didn't go into ham radio as a CW "lover" by any means -- in fact,
I was a dedicated NCTA at the time. I came across to the other side
due to my own experience with Morse/CW, and thus became a True
Believer.

Nonsense. You were able to achieve tested proficiency in code by
passing a 20 WPM federal test...that enabled you to get an Amateur
Extra class license so that you could now have SOME kind of "high"
award for your life experience. That rank-status-privilege artificiality
allowed you to be "better" than "lower" classes.


I'm reasonably sure you'll ultimately get your way, since that's the
direction this country is going in general -- down the tubes.

Not really. YOUR life may be going down the tubes but the rest of us
are rather firmly involved with optimism and are forging a brighter future
even for those who, like yourself, remain rooted in old ways, old values,
old standards, old practices, with a strict moral-superiority code stuck
in your own ego.

Get some mental therapy, Roll. It will help you in the long run.

LHA

Outside of sounding like low-grade bull****, that "reason" could be
taken
as wanting a government WELFARE program to preserve morse code.

If morsemanship is so damn much fun, easy to learn, etc., then it can
be done WITHOUT needing the subsistence of any federal testing.

That was my EXACT point in an earlier post.... I was told by a certain
PCTA type that "it won't exist anymore unless we force it on everybody"...
well, heh, according to darwin and also the free market, the most fit
survive and the free market, left to run the course as it will in and of
its own needs will result in the best suited result.

If you have to MAKE it happen, then it isn't making it on it's own
merit.




I'm afraid of your motives in all this, Larry. I don't like the words
I
hear from many advocating the continuation of the code testing
requirement.
Those words often reek of bigotry, elitism, and discrimination against
other
Americans.

social engineering.
it's affirmative action for CW; it's as you said, a welfare program for
it....


One of the classic NCTA whines. Us horrible old PCTA's want to keep
Morse code going so that we can continue to demonstrate the dominance
of the white, middle-class, American male, who represents 5% of the
world's population yet consumes 25% of the planet's resources,

and ALSO produces 33% of the worlds economic output, to the tune
of 11 TRILLION dollars out of the 33 trillion sum total of all nations.

Just to keep the record straight.

Clint
KB5ZHT

In article , "Clint" rattlehead at
computron dot net writes:

Outside of sounding like low-grade bull****, that "reason" could be
taken
as wanting a government WELFARE program to preserve morse code.

If morsemanship is so damn much fun, easy to learn, etc., then it can
be done WITHOUT needing the subsistence of any federal testing.

That was my EXACT point in an earlier post.... I was told by a certain
PCTA type that "it won't exist anymore unless we force it on everybody"...
well, heh, according to darwin and also the free market, the most fit
survive and the free market, left to run the course as it will in and of
its own needs will result in the best suited result.

Clint:

The so-called "free market" is VERY highly regulated all over the globe.
About the only thing most business entrepreneurs are "free" to do these
days is to strictly comply with regulations telling them what they can
sell, how they can sell it, and whom they can sell it to. Code testing
doesn't even come close to being the same thing, particularly since
the Technician's license gives a ham 97% of all available amateur
radio operating privileges without a hint of a code test.

If you have to MAKE it happen, then it isn't making it on it's own
merit.

Fine. Then let's get rid of any and all testing in schools at every
educational level. After all, all those tests only "force" students to
demonstrate academic achievement, don't they? That's "making"
an education happen, so we can't have that, can we?

social engineering.
it's affirmative action for CW; it's as you said, a welfare program for
it....

Don't look now, Clint, but welfare programs are "handouts" that give
away valuable assets as if the recipient were entitled to them simply
by virtue of being there with his/her hand out. It is the NCTA that
wants a welfare program, not the PCTA.

One of the classic NCTA whines. Us horrible old PCTA's want to keep
Morse code going so that we can continue to demonstrate the dominance
of the white, middle-class, American male, who represents 5% of the
world's population yet consumes 25% of the planet's resources,

and ALSO produces 33% of the worlds economic output, to the tune
of 11 TRILLION dollars out of the 33 trillion sum total of all nations.

Just to keep the record straight.

So what's your problem, then?

73 de Larry, K3LT

**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****

On 21 Sep 2003 06:28:53 GMT, ospam (Larry Roll K3LT)
wrote:

In article , "Clint" rattlehead at
computron dot net writes:

If you have to MAKE it happen, then it isn't making it on it's own
merit.

Fine. Then let's get rid of any and all testing in schools at every
educational level. After all, all those tests only "force" students to
demonstrate academic achievement, don't they? That's "making"
an education happen, so we can't have that, can we?

We can, and we do, primarily because one is doomed to fail in life
without an education. You'll also note that one does not have to study
medicine and get an M.D. in order to graduate with a degree in, say,
business administration - primarily because a guy with an MBA isn't
expected to perform brain surgery. With respect to Amateur Radio,
nobody is forced to operate in CW once they're licensed, and one can
succeed in the ARS by using any one of a few dozen other modes we're
allowed to use, so forcing them to take a code test makes no sense.

Don't look now, Clint, but welfare programs are "handouts" that give
away valuable assets as if the recipient were entitled to them simply
by virtue of being there with his/her hand out.

Correct. Therefore, code testing isn't a welfare program, it's a
government-subsidized life-support system for an anachronism.

73 DE John, KC2HMZ
Tonawanda, New York


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"Len Over 21" wrote:

Outside of sounding like low-grade bull****, (snip)


I might have thought that when I first read his response, but decided to
be a little more controlled in my written response (knowing full well that
others would come to that conclusion on their own).


All Dwight said was that "your words reek of bigotry, elitism, and
discrimination against other Americans."


Now, I didn't specifically say Larry's words reeked of anything. What I
said is the words I hear from many advocating the continuation of the code
testing requirement often reek of bigotry, elitism, and discrimination
against other Americans. Of course, some of Larry's past comments certainly
might fit into that category, but he has since somewhat toned down his
rhetoric.


If YOU want to TRULY support personal initiative without
"government support" (and all its 'evil' socialist-like things) then
you should be able to eliminate the federal code test!

Except you do NOT. You keep demanding that the government
continue the federal code test in order to keep a few code users
around...


I've discussed that contradiction with Larry before. He does seem to
exclude code testing from his conservative views opposing excessive
government regulation. If Morse Code has real value, it should be able to
survive in as close to a free market environment as possible. I think it has
that value and can survive just fine without a regulation mandating testing.


The FCC regulates and licenses ALL civil radio in the USA...
yet none of the staff nor commission of the FCC are required to
pass any morse code test in order to regulate US amateur radio.


Of course, that should be obvious. But Larry's position benefits him
more - if accepted, it would undermine all those with different views on
this subject. Clearly, only those with views similar to his would accept
such a premise.


You seem dumb and dumberer to the fact that every other radio
service (except a small part of maritime radio) in the USA has either
DROPPED morse code (snip)


Actually, as you may know, even the International Maritime Organization
(IMO) voted in 1998 to eliminate Morse Code. The Coast Guard itself dropped
code in 1995. As a result of these two events, the Coast Guard now urges
commercial vessels not to use code since CG personnel, and an increasing
number of radio operators in the maritime service, may no longer have the
skills necessary to communicate using that system. The UN-chartered IMO is
responsible for defining and regulating international maritime
telecommunications. It's positions are adopted by the ITU.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

In article , "Kim W5TIT"
writes:

Well, more importantly, when was the last time Larry wore a bra?
(Wooshhhhhh--he will never get that one).

Kim W5TIT

Obviously not, since I'm not in the habit of wearing ladie's underwear!
So, for once you're right, Kim -- that one hit my skull and slid right off!
However, my "issue" with you has nothing to do with your bra or what's
in it -- it's about your call sign. But I don't expect you to "get" that,
either.

73 de Larry, K3LT

In article , "Kim W5TIT"
writes:

Not necessarilly. If one knows the ingredients of pizza, they do not have
to eat it to know whether they would like it or not.

Kim:

Just out of curiosity, what ARE the ingredients of a pizza?

I love pizza but hate tomatoes, cheese, and garlic. Yet
combine them into a pizza and the result is entirely different. No one
can
tell how a cake will taste simply from reading the ingredients on a box.

Unless, of course, that particular cake is made with tomatoes, cheese,
and garlic -- then you, by your own admission, would have a prejudiced
notion of it's taste. And, if the cake was made from scratch, one may
not have a box from which to read the list of ingredients. Then, the
only way to judge the cake's taste would be through direct, personal
experience. I'm sure more cakes are judged in this manner than by
any analysis of the ingredient list.

Depends.

Eouuuuuu!!! I wouldn't want to make a cake or a pizza out of them!

If it's a chocolate cake and we know that we can't *really* taste
the eggs (I can't stand eggs), then I'm pretty sure I'd like a chocolate
cake.

Have you ever tasted a cake (of any flavour) made *without* eggs?
I'm pretty sure you could tell the difference.

You can evaluate its nutritional content but not its taste. So while
there
are some things that do not need to be experienced to evaluate them, there
are other things that do.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


I think you're grabbing at straws, Dee.

No, Kim, actually she is quite correct. Personal experience *does* give
us a better ability to evaluate things and formulate judgments for or
against them. While non-participatory analysis of the parts of the whole
may lead us to draw some certain conclusions, those conclusions would
tend to then be colored by our prejudices for or against any one component,
such as eggs, cheese, or tomatoes. Only when the whole concept is
brought together into the sum of it's parts, and experienced by a truly
qualified and objective person who doesn't have an agenda to either be
for or against the result, can a fair and credible judgement be made.
This applies equally to cake, pizza, and Morse code testing within the
ARS. It is not "grasping at straws."

73 de Larry, K3LT