Bill Sohl wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message

some snippage

So you now support no testing whatsoever, since the priveliges have no
bearing? Glad you finally got serious and admitted it.


Sorry Mike, your logic is seriously lacking. My
stateing the obvious about privileges vs license
in no way leads to the conclusion that I must, therefore,
oppose incentive licensing. Even Jim, N2EY has
acknowledged what I have said regarding privileges
vs license class based on written test knowledge.

Considering that you support a plan that supposedly gives a huge chunk
of hams a free upgrade, then supposedly makes it harder for hams coming
into the service after this giveaway, I'll take your concerns about my
logic under advisement, and with a huge grain of salt.


If you support them, then by definition you are supoorting a
reduction in the written test requirements for those licenses.

Incomplete statement. Supporting a one-time upgrade doesn't
mean anyone supports "permanent" reductions of the written
requirements. THAT is the critical difference.

Give me a break, Bill!

Are the people getting the "one time upgrade" qualified?

Tell me why they would be unqualified? Unqualified as to doing
what?

You are right Bill. There really is no need for qualification if you
don't want there to be.


Now you might argue that it's only a temporary or one-time reduction,
but it's still a reduction.

It is a ONE time reduction. You and I can disagree about the reason's
to do it, but my support or anyone else's support of the one
time upgrade does NOT mean I or anyone else supports
permanent reductions in requirements.

Are the people qualified?

YES...and if you think otherwise, please tell us what makes them
unqualified and/or in what specific aspect(s) or priviliges
they would be unqualified.

So why make the tests more difficult after the "one shot" upgrade? If
you think a technician is now qualified to be a General, then you should
be consistant.


The problem, is that there isn't any accepted relationship
of privileges vs license to apply a truly knoweldege
based upgrade system that links the additional privileges to actual
written test knowlede.

Agreed. I've said for a long time that there is no *practical* need for
any test regimen at all. This isn't the old days. If I were so inclined,
I could buy my equipment, pay someone to put up the antenna and put the
station together, and then teach me how to mash the PTT button. Then get
on the air and yak away. No knowledge needed. All the knowledge we look
for in a Ham OP is arbitrary and must be something we decide upon.


And since it affects over 400,000 hams, it's not a small matter.

If it goes through it will be forgotten in a couple of years. Why,

because


no one losses any privileges.

Are they qualified?


Broken record here it seems.

You notice?


A few things here.

IF the people getting the free upgrade are qualified then there is *no
reason to increase the requirements ever again*. If you support that you
are just as supportive of a hazing requirement (over-testing) as the
evil Morse code supporters.

I repeat agin, the incentive licensing system bears NO true
relation to the increased privileges granted. The incentive
system as created simply asks for passage of another test
on subject matter of a more difficult content. Knowledge of
that material certainly doesn't lead to any special qualification
that differentiates an Extra operating in the "Extra Only"
spectrum from that of a General operating in the General
spectrum of the same band at the same maximum permitted
power.


If they are not qualified, then you are not only sending them upward
and onward without the proper qualifications, you are doing them a great
disservice.

Quite frankly, I believe that You, Carl, and Mr. W5YI do *indeed*
support permanent changes in the written requirement access to HF.

The ARRL does not take that position at all...except for the "new"
novice which would have greater HF privileges...but with limited
power. Carl and I support the ARRL petition (except for the code test)


The ARRL is being illogical.


Then go take it up with ARRL...assuming you are a member.

Why yes I am a member

And I see you don't deny my assertion.


Not at all...YOU refuse to see the difference
between ONE-TIME and PERMANENT.

Perhaps my cynicism sees this one time thing as the salesman getting
his foot in the door. It's where I see the disconnect with logic. If a
testing regimen is sufficient for qualification one day, it should be
good enough the day after, unless there is a pressing reason to increase
the qualifications. There will be no compelling need to increase the
qualifications the day after the "one shot" upgrade.


I refuse to believe that you are all that naive to think that we'll just
do this once

Believe whatever makes you feel good.

Doesn't make me feel good at all!


Your problem, not mine.




and no one will notice that suddenly the requirements will go up.

The requirements won't go up...they will stay the same. The only
thing happening here (if FCC approves) is the written test will
be waiver one time for the particular ham going from Tech to General
or Advanced to Extra.

You're playing with my words here.


No, you are incorrectly stating the aspects of the ARRL
petition.

All actions have consequences. I know exactly what the aspects of the
ARRL petition are. They are allowing another agenda (IMO) to color their
thinking on the issue, and are trying to shoehorn their agenda into it,
along with giving some lip service to those members that still want
Element 1 tested.

Speculation alert
Their agenda, if I am correct, is that they want lots more people with
HF access. This will have two immediate effects in their view.

Effect 1 is that there is a pretty big divide in the ham radio
neighborhood regarding the ARRL. Hams that have only VHF and up access
tend not to belong to the league, and hams that do have HF access are
more likely to belong. If a ham has hf access, they will be more likely
to join perhaps. They look at the possibility of a good size chunk of
these 400,000 upgraded hams to join up.

Effect 2 is that these upgrades hams will make a great number to trot
out when fighting spectrum threats "Look at all the Hams that will be
negatively affected by BPL, etc.". Double that number, and it looks all
the more impressive.

speculation mode off

But as with all side agendas, people tend to get caught up in the
agenda, and lose sight of those consequences. And the consequences here
are that a powerful argument is provided to make HF access test
requirements at the Technician level permanent. If it was good once, it
should continue being good until circumstances force a change. And I
don't see any logical way around that.

Will these Tech level people be able to get on HF and work? Of course.
Plenty of people are running high power rigs on 11 meters, and they
haven't taken one test. So the tech's will have one foot up on them.

As I've said in the past, the service is what we want it to be



A person that takes the Technician test, then becomes a General with no
further retesting.

A person that takes a Technician test, then a General test.

Which person has done more? Unless you are suggesting that the future
General test is simply the equivalent of the Tech test.


I do not dispute there is a one-time difference. That is what happens
when there is a one-time waiver.


I remember promises of never accepting reduction in test requirements.
I remember the explicit distancing of personal opinions from NCI. But
here you all are, supporting reductions in the requirements for access
to HF. A pattern forms.

Yea, yea...and with the music to twilight Zone in the
background too.
Believe whatever you want, whatever floats your boat.

Yeah I know, lifes a bitch............


By Jove I think he's got it.


Actually I don't, "got it", Bill. That kind of stuff is more a
detriment to your arguments than a help. But hey, if you like that kind
of stuff, have at it!!

- Mike KB3EIA -